On January 27 2010 21:38 FieryBalrog wrote: This sorta shit better not be covered by health insurance.
Indeed, the nerve of some people. I mean honestly, having a baby!?
Not that; transgender surgery and all the expensive bullshit that goes with it. I'm tired of people claiming every lifestyle choice and elective procedure under the sun is now all of society's responsibility.
I'm also tired of the outrage-mongering in this thread. Wrapping yourself in the cloak of moral superiority doesn't deserve anyone's attention.
I hope in 100 years these moral idiocies and obsessions of our century will be as discredited and scorned as those of the 19th century are today.
On January 27 2010 21:38 FieryBalrog wrote: This sorta shit better not be covered by health insurance.
Indeed, the nerve of some people. I mean honestly, having a baby!?
Not that; transgender surgery and all the expensive bullshit that goes with it. I'm tired of people claiming every lifestyle choice and elective procedure under the sun is now all of society's responsibility.
I'm also tired of the outrage-mongering in this thread. Wrapping yourself in the cloak of moral superiority doesn't deserve anyone's attention.
I hope in 100 years these moral idiocies and obsessions of our century will be as discredited and scorned as those of the 19th century are today.
Because as soon as insurance starts covering surgery *so many* people are going to rush to have one done.
There *are* requirements to get surgery, you know?
I hope your dick never gets cut off in an unfortunate accident lest insurance doesn't consider re-attaching it to your body a necessity. It's only cosmetic. You can get by fine as a man without it.
However, he could not afford the gender surgery, so still has female organs.
Then why saying he is a man? T_T Having a beard an small breast doesn't make you a man especially if you still have female organs...
What makes you a man, endy?
Woot, are you trying to say a person with a vagina and a uterus can be a man/male or whatever you call it? I just give up then, we just have way too different ways of thinking.
I can eventually admit they are "upgraded queens" since they got beard.. But no way call them men!
I'd imagine it's pretty difficult for people who aren't transexuals to understand how difficult it is for them. Don't really see why they should be figures of ridicule just because its uncommon.
On January 27 2010 22:16 Cloud wrote: lol. It's pretty cool, who cares if it "goes against nature" (it doesn't). Showing disgust here is just one form of religious indignation.
Thx, this is what I've wanted to write for the last 5 hours but didnt want to have to face the unavoidable bashing series that will follow.
On January 27 2010 13:37 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 27 2010 13:10 seppolevne wrote:
On January 27 2010 12:55 Shizuru~ wrote: so who is the real father, ie:sperm doner? of this child... or did i miss some abominable scientific breakthrough that allows 2 females that tries to pretend to be males, to have children like a normal family unit?
uhhh... Y chromosomes are useless. You take an X from a woman and another X from a woman and BAM! female baby.
i have no issues with transgenders as i believe in freedom of choice, its their own life and body that they wish to desecrate if it is their choice then so be it. what i cannot stand is that these people claim with their twisted reasoning and logic to justify how their actions and choice are "normal" and should be "accepted" by the general populace. and how they abuse the term "ignorance" and "open-minded" is disgusting, were they not the people that were ignorant about their own sexual orientation? were they not the one's that cannot accept who they truly are? (unless if ur a hermaphrodite). there are lines in nature and humanity that u do not cross, u crossed it now u have accept the consequence of ur own free choice. they became an abomination of nature by choice, and they will rightfully be branded as such.
So who someone truly is is based on whether they have a penis or a vagina? It has nothing to do with hormone levels that cause them to develop a female/male brain and identify as one in the other's body? What are these so-called "lines u do not cross" and who picks them? You? The Bible? The majority? Fuck that.
The question here is where did the sperm come from? We can't just merge 2 eggs and get a baby....and both of them have eggs only unless SOMEWHERE they obtained a set of testes to produce their own sperm, so then why dont u just adopt a baby?? It's defnitely not natural (IMO) for a man to have babies....but then again, nothing is natural about this topic
And as for that second part, once again, maybe not happening here, but look up parthenogenesis.
Unfortunately humans aren't asexual, for a human egg to develop into an embryo you have to have a sperm
On January 27 2010 17:07 fight_or_flight wrote: So do massive amounts of male hormones screw a baby up?
no, since the male hormones are stopped before/during pregnancy. If they were to continue to take hormones before/during pregnancy, then probably, but one of the side effects of giving male hormones to females is the stopping of menstruation and obviously then no pregnancy is possible in that state.
I would be more worried about the ovaries entering some kind of atrophy, but I dont know if they would for sure. On the flip side, a male taking female hormones for even a short length of time will be made permanently sterile. Even if they stop for whatever reason, its too late and they will simply be incapable of producing viable sperm (or much sperm at all for that matter)
so the baby will only be not screwed up physically
and no evidence that the child will be screwed up psychologically
Those of you "worried about the kid" should consider why. Maybe because your hateful views are similar to most people's who are willing to be just as, if not more, vocal/active about it?
The problem is not with these people, their conditions, or their choices. If no one else in the world existed and it was just that family, they would be relieved of a lot of their hardship. No. It sucks to be them because of people like 90% of the responders in this thread. Bunch of bigots who insist that their reality is the only one and considers any challenge to what they know to be "true" (how fucking pretentious is that?) to be a threat and instead of looking within themselves to truly question and understand *why* they find it disturbing, they prefer to sling mud at that perceived threat.
I'm going to let you fucks in on a secret: YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT.
You think you do and are so egotistical as to believe that you are "right" when in reality you don't have any first-hand knowledge or experience in most everything that you think you know. Your judgments are based on *nothing*.
Weak-ass cowards.
Because an intelligent argument always begins with insulting the other party. I'm going to let you in on a secret: it doesn't.
It doesn't matter whether you think that this kid should not be picked on at all or why it will be, what matters is that it is going to happen no matter what. Moreover, discrimination will probably occur during adulthood if others find out about said child's situation.
If you want to argue your point properly and have people take you seriously, you should probably state it a bit more clearly minus the insults.
Also, (just reading further down) I agree with with JohnColtrane, where are your statistics?
"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house" -Audre Lorde
I will not bow down to a thread full of people who have been so disrespectful and plead for consideration.
Oppressors are not deserving of my respect. I am not trying to have an intelligent argument (mostly because that is not possible on the interwebz and is a complete fallacy to try) You do realize that you are asking that these people validate their existence to you, right? Do you have *any* idea how degrading, humiliating, and insulting that is?
Do you not see through your own words?
Moreover, discrimination will probably occur during adulthood if others find out about said child's situation.
Do you not see what is wrong with this? How does it not enrage you that someone is destined to be subjected to prejudice, discrimination, and hate because of who and what they are? Does it not occur to you that maybe a perspective shift is what is required? Try on some compassion. I'm sure if you were in his position, you wouldn't want to be subjected to the aforementioned horridness of society. In fact, I'm sure you'd prefer that it wasn't even an issue worthy of attention or note at all.
Unfortunately, I do not have a statistics page set up for sales. I only go by what producers tell me.
he isnt commenting on whether or not he thinks discrimination should occur or not, he is just saying it most likely will.
i dont know, i see gender based on your physical status rather than what you believe yourself to be. of course, people can do whatever they want with their bodies but i cant say that i am personally thrilled about it
...and he, like many, will stand apathetically by while this person is subjected to this adversity.
Your perspective is one based off of "I don't understand it so I do not validate it."
There seems to be this idea that people go through this because it is fun and exciting or that they are sexual perverts. Shit's not true. Transition is one of the most unpleasant and painful things that a person can experience. You risk losing everything (family, friends, job, etc.).
It is a choice. But for many the choice is either to live or to kill themselves. Unfortunately, fully half or more choose the latter option.
The American Medical Association recognizes transsexualism as a legitimate condition. The solution acknowledged is transition, therapy, hormones, and surgery. Regardless, most insurance companies still refuse to cover these treatments. Therapists and doctors require transitioners to live at least one (often *two*) year(s) in the role of the gender they are transitioning to regardless of their "passability" before surgery is authorized. This is a process put in place to ensure that the person transitioning can withstand the hate, discrimination, and prejudices of society. Many suicides, suicide attempts, assaults and murders occur during this time period.
If you make it past all that and if you manage to save up enough money (anywhere from $15k-$100k depending on how sloppy of a job you are willing to subject your body to) on your own either through sex work or, funnily enough, the IT industry (because most businesses discriminate), then you are given the letters of reference to go through with it. You are then subjected to several months (years even) of recovery.
After all this shit, you are still expected to disclose your history and status to whom it may concern and subject yourself to the same bigotry and hatefulness that you've been experiencing your whole life.
People don't understand this. They'd rather write transsexuals off as freaks and perverts. That they're "sick in the head." That they are "confused."
If only they knew how horrifying the experience is. Maybe they'd get a clue as to why "that tranny bitch is crazy!" They may be crazy, but they understand themselves better than most could possibly hope to. They appreciate life more than most are capable of. They have to fight for everything and nothing is given to them.
On January 27 2010 19:05 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: The lack of tolerance for other opinions amongst the ones here preaching tolerance is incredible and hilarious.
The difference is that the "opinions" being preached against are merely prejudice based off of insecurity and baseless hate.
People don't get ostracized from society from preferring red over blue or thinking mustard is better than ketchup.
Transsexuals get murdered for who they are so kindly, go fuck yourself.
who are you arguing against here? all the guy said was the kid would face trouble in the future. he didnt talk about why or if he should so why are you berating him for it...?
i think your personal bias regarding this topic is making you go on a bit of a crusade when the guy didnt say anything in that regards
My "personal bias" and "crusade" is spreading awareness to people who obviously don't have the first clue and would prefer to belittle and dehumanize others that they don't, can't, and never will understand.
There's no argument here.
This is called "education" for anyone willing to read.
My "argument" isn't against any one person here. I'm not trying to convince any one person in particular.
I'm planting seeds.
Maybe someone will see these posts and consider it worth their time to learn more about what it is to be a transsexual and maybe their opinion will change toward something not so closed off. Maybe they will allow that these people's lives are just as valid as anyone else's and that they have done nothing to deserve the amount of adversity they have to endure every day. Maybe they'll refrain from participating in prejudicial "jokes" or public mockery. Hell, maybe even they'll be swayed so much as to disapprove of someone trashing a transsexual and may actually speak up about it. Because each person who at the very least accepts that transsexuals are people worth the same basic respect and courtesy as anyone else makes each of those transsexual's lives just that much more bearable.
Yes, I am personally biased. I know more than a couple of transsexual girls who have "finished" transition. They have gotten the surgeries and everything. They are terrified to leave their homes because they have been assaulted and raped after disclosing their history. This pisses me off to no end because they are kind and they are beautiful and they have endured so much just so that they can live the lives they should have had, but are still being denied.
The common negative attitude towards transsexuals perpetuates this. They deserve more.
You say they get shit for who they are - wrong. They get shit for changing how they were born. I just think people are going way too far with this kinda attitude of messing around with nature.
I'm going to let the irony of the fact that you are able to communicate your defense of "nature" to people in every corner of the globe simultaneously to sink in. I suppose you believe that children with other birth defects shouldn't get medical treatment either? Like the child with the impacted skull or a twisted vertebrate. When was the last time you saw a dentist or got a vaccination? I suppose your computer is made of wood and is powered by fairy dust?
Those of you "worried about the kid" should consider why. Maybe because your hateful views are similar to most people's who are willing to be just as, if not more, vocal/active about it?
The problem is not with these people, their conditions, or their choices. If no one else in the world existed and it was just that family, they would be relieved of a lot of their hardship. No. It sucks to be them because of people like 90% of the responders in this thread. Bunch of bigots who insist that their reality is the only one and considers any challenge to what they know to be "true" (how fucking pretentious is that?) to be a threat and instead of looking within themselves to truly question and understand *why* they find it disturbing, they prefer to sling mud at that perceived threat.
I'm going to let you fucks in on a secret: YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT.
You think you do and are so egotistical as to believe that you are "right" when in reality you don't have any first-hand knowledge or experience in most everything that you think you know. Your judgments are based on *nothing*.
Weak-ass cowards.
Because an intelligent argument always begins with insulting the other party. I'm going to let you in on a secret: it doesn't.
It doesn't matter whether you think that this kid should not be picked on at all or why it will be, what matters is that it is going to happen no matter what. Moreover, discrimination will probably occur during adulthood if others find out about said child's situation.
If you want to argue your point properly and have people take you seriously, you should probably state it a bit more clearly minus the insults.
Also, (just reading further down) I agree with with JohnColtrane, where are your statistics?
"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house" -Audre Lorde
I will not bow down to a thread full of people who have been so disrespectful and plead for consideration.
Oppressors are not deserving of my respect. I am not trying to have an intelligent argument (mostly because that is not possible on the interwebz and is a complete fallacy to try) You do realize that you are asking that these people validate their existence to you, right? Do you have *any* idea how degrading, humiliating, and insulting that is?
Do you not see through your own words?
Moreover, discrimination will probably occur during adulthood if others find out about said child's situation.
Do you not see what is wrong with this? How does it not enrage you that someone is destined to be subjected to prejudice, discrimination, and hate because of who and what they are? Does it not occur to you that maybe a perspective shift is what is required? Try on some compassion. I'm sure if you were in his position, you wouldn't want to be subjected to the aforementioned horridness of society. In fact, I'm sure you'd prefer that it wasn't even an issue worthy of attention or note at all.
Unfortunately, I do not have a statistics page set up for sales. I only go by what producers tell me.
he isnt commenting on whether or not he thinks discrimination should occur or not, he is just saying it most likely will.
i dont know, i see gender based on your physical status rather than what you believe yourself to be. of course, people can do whatever they want with their bodies but i cant say that i am personally thrilled about it
...and he, like many, will stand apathetically by while this person is subjected to this adversity.
Your perspective is one based off of "I don't understand it so I do not validate it."
There seems to be this idea that people go through this because it is fun and exciting or that they are sexual perverts. Shit's not true. Transition is one of the most unpleasant and painful things that a person can experience. You risk losing everything (family, friends, job, etc.).
It is a choice. But for many the choice is either to live or to kill themselves. Unfortunately, fully half or more choose the latter option.
The American Medical Association recognizes transsexualism as a legitimate condition. The solution acknowledged is transition, therapy, hormones, and surgery. Regardless, most insurance companies still refuse to cover these treatments. Therapists and doctors require transitioners to live at least one (often *two*) year(s) in the role of the gender they are transitioning to regardless of their "passability" before surgery is authorized. This is a process put in place to ensure that the person transitioning can withstand the hate, discrimination, and prejudices of society. Many suicides, suicide attempts, assaults and murders occur during this time period.
If you make it past all that and if you manage to save up enough money (anywhere from $15k-$100k depending on how sloppy of a job you are willing to subject your body to) on your own either through sex work or, funnily enough, the IT industry (because most businesses discriminate), then you are given the letters of reference to go through with it. You are then subjected to several months (years even) of recovery.
After all this shit, you are still expected to disclose your history and status to whom it may concern and subject yourself to the same bigotry and hatefulness that you've been experiencing your whole life.
People don't understand this. They'd rather write transsexuals off as freaks and perverts. That they're "sick in the head." That they are "confused."
If only they knew how horrifying the experience is. Maybe they'd get a clue as to why "that tranny bitch is crazy!" They may be crazy, but they understand themselves better than most could possibly hope to. They appreciate life more than most are capable of. They have to fight for everything and nothing is given to them.
On January 27 2010 19:05 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: The lack of tolerance for other opinions amongst the ones here preaching tolerance is incredible and hilarious.
The difference is that the "opinions" being preached against are merely prejudice based off of insecurity and baseless hate.
People don't get ostracized from society from preferring red over blue or thinking mustard is better than ketchup.
Transsexuals get murdered for who they are so kindly, go fuck yourself.
who are you arguing against here? all the guy said was the kid would face trouble in the future. he didnt talk about why or if he should so why are you berating him for it...?
i think your personal bias regarding this topic is making you go on a bit of a crusade when the guy didnt say anything in that regards
My "personal bias" and "crusade" is spreading awareness to people who obviously don't have the first clue and would prefer to belittle and dehumanize others that they don't, can't, and never will understand.
There's no argument here.
This is called "education" for anyone willing to read.
My "argument" isn't against any one person here. I'm not trying to convince any one person in particular.
I'm planting seeds.
Maybe someone will see these posts and consider it worth their time to learn more about what it is to be a transsexual and maybe their opinion will change toward something not so closed off. Maybe they will allow that these people's lives are just as valid as anyone else's and that they have done nothing to deserve the amount of adversity they have to endure every day. Maybe they'll refrain from participating in prejudicial "jokes" or public mockery. Hell, maybe even they'll be swayed so much as to disapprove of someone trashing a transsexual and may actually speak up about it. Because each person who at the very least accepts that transsexuals are people worth the same basic respect and courtesy as anyone else makes each of those transsexual's lives just that much more bearable.
Yes, I am personally biased. I know more than a couple of transsexual girls who have "finished" transition. They have gotten the surgeries and everything. They are terrified to leave their homes because they have been assaulted and raped after disclosing their history. This pisses me off to no end because they are kind and they are beautiful and they have endured so much just so that they can live the lives they should have had, but are still being denied.
The common negative attitude towards transsexuals perpetuates this. They deserve more.
You say they get shit for who they are - wrong. They get shit for changing how they were born. I just think people are going way too far with this kinda attitude of messing around with nature.
I'm going to let the irony of the fact that you are able to communicate your defense of "nature" to people in every corner of the globe simultaneously to sink in. I suppose you believe that children with other birth defects shouldn't get medical treatment either? Like the child with the impacted skull or a twisted vertebrate. When was the last time you saw a dentist or got a vaccination? I suppose your computer is made of wood and is powered by fairy dust?
GTFO "natural."
Dude, are you a tranny?
no, but I am, so fuck you
Woah...what is the problem? I was just curious. I myself love trannies --- so I'm not really opposed to your "fuck you" unless you look like a toad.
On January 27 2010 21:38 FieryBalrog wrote: This sorta shit better not be covered by health insurance.
Indeed, the nerve of some people. I mean honestly, having a baby!?
Not that; transgender surgery and all the expensive bullshit that goes with it. I'm tired of people claiming every lifestyle choice and elective procedure under the sun is now all of society's responsibility.
I'm also tired of the outrage-mongering in this thread. Wrapping yourself in the cloak of moral superiority doesn't deserve anyone's attention.
I hope in 100 years these moral idiocies and obsessions of our century will be as discredited and scorned as those of the 19th century are today.
um hum
because transgenderism is a modern phenomenon. It totally hasnt existed for thousands of years in a whole bunch of cultures and societies with no interactions.
Its just some new age mysticism bullshit where I decided one morning 'hey wouldnt it be neat to be a girl? I mean I don't really have too, but boy do I want some attention* time to have some elective procedure!'
*READ: A whole bunch of people to make fun of me, constantly, purely for how I look. Thats what everyone desires right? Oh and dont even start on job prospects, the possibility of losing everyone you love etc.
The truth is, just to start hormones requires a fuckload of work and therapy and meetings with doctors. You need a reference just to see a gender specialist, you need his reference to see an endocrinologist, etc. If they don't think you are transgendered, well guess what, no hormones/surgery for you. And the lack of gender specialists means you can't just find another doctor. There is on specialist in my province, 2 in vancouver and 2 in montreal. In all of Canada, those are the only ones I'm aware of.
The reason doctors go for the hormone /surgery thing isnt because they're into fulfilling the fantasies of other people. Its because they've tried everything else; aversion therapy, electroshock therapy, all sorts of horrible stuff and none of it has ever worked. Ever.
In the entire medical history there have been only 2 mtfers who managed not to transition, assume male roles, not hate their lives and suicide. thats in 30-40 years of studies. Everyone else has either transitioned or suicided.
Ewww... so both had a sex change? They can do whatever, and I can judge whatever... But I always wanted to see a transgender's genitals... I've seen ladyboys... but what about constructed... -_-;; ya knoww?
I think it's best to remember your audience here in this tread. While I can be happy for them and their own happieness now, I'm just as sure I wouldn't have been able to as a teenager. I'm not saying that it's pointless trying to educate said teenagers, just that certain reactions are to be expected. Some things just take some time - both for individual and social acceptance. Not so long ago the same thread could have been made for gay couples. Include some photos of kissing/intimacy and you'd have gotten the same "gross" answers (at least for gay men).
The whole surgical gender changing is even more rare and thus socially less accepted.
Also keep in mind that in many countries even being gay is not yet (fully) accepted. Wasn't the 2004 US election effectively decided by the gay marriage issue?
Popping in to say I support Hanner and fusionsdf in this thread. I myself don't have much experience or study into these matters but they are pretty much spot on with my views.
I believe there's a similar phenomena where people become obsessed with unnecessary amputation. Like they get it in their head that their own limbs aren't really theirs or something? People have the right to do whatever they want but i just find it really hard to accept that somehow literally being a man born in a woman's body can be the result of mishaps during gestation. That it isn't completely psychological, and quite silly.
I mean even if it is psychological, you can still do whatever you want. But still i think it's just a really weird thing to do, to add extra appendiges to your body because you're not comfortable with the way you were born. It doesn't help either that i've never met any such person, and that the only such people i've seen portrayed in movies have been portrayed by people who don't have that problem at all, and just assume that it's a completely positive thing and interpret their characters in as politically correct a way as they can. So i can only guess.
EPT
