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On January 28 2010 12:03 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. The point I'm trying to make here is, do people mean it when people say they want a sex change that they "feel like they are a man trapped inside a woman's body"?
YES. It's really not made up. Its a very very strong subconcious drive that cannot be fought. Imagine being totally uncomfortable with your own body. I don't mean in a 'I don't really like my nose' kind of way. I mean you go through contiunous, strong feelings of either things not being real, or you not really being a person (see Deralization Depersonalization).
Imagine being an actor on stage your whole life. The role might be a really good role that most people would be fine with. But imagine being that actor all day, every day and not allowed to get off stage or stop acting at any point.
Imagine telling yourself desperately you're normal, and then in every dream you ever have you're female. In every sexual fantasy. It really affects you in so many different, strong ways and its unfightable.
Here is a list of the symptoms I had from repression:
-Constant stress (I was well on the way to developing an ulcer)
-Constant insomnia (I was getting 3 hours of sleep max a night for months. Then I would crash and sleep 30-40 hours a day over 2 days and repeat the cycle)
-Constant overwhelming panic attacks (really really severe. They are only supposed to last for 15 minutes max typically. Mine were so recurrent they were basically day long)
-depression/suicidal thoughts/lack of a goal in life/feeling like nothing matters to you/feeling strongly out of place.
----
On to what they are doing. Yeah I admit its contradictory, and I don't really understand it. But you have to give up a lot to switch gender roles, and maybe that was one thing they wanted to keep. Maybe they just wanted their children to feel more like 'their' children and pregnancy is a way to achieve that.
There are plenty of consistent ftm tgs out there who live a perfectly happy, normal male life. If you pass them on the street, even if you are friends with them, you wont realize they used to be biologically female.
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On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad.
its not frustrating and sad. and if people dont start saying shit one day society might accept this bullshit.
not on my fucking watch.
not on my watch...
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On January 28 2010 12:41 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. its not frustrating and sad. and if people dont start saying shit one day society might accept this bullshit. not on my fucking watch. not on my watch...
you're an awesome person. congrats on being so amazing.
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On January 28 2010 12:45 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 12:41 StarsPride wrote:On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. its not frustrating and sad. and if people dont start saying shit one day society might accept this bullshit. not on my fucking watch. not on my watch... you're an awesome person. congrats on being so amazing.
he is actually, there has to be some type of moral standard.
this is just too out of line
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On January 28 2010 13:40 ilj.psa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 12:45 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:On January 28 2010 12:41 StarsPride wrote:On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. its not frustrating and sad. and if people dont start saying shit one day society might accept this bullshit. not on my fucking watch. not on my watch... you're an awesome person. congrats on being so amazing. he is actually, there has to be some type of moral standard. this is just too out of line
its true, after this it will be beastility.
THE LINE NEEDS TO BE DRAWN.
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obvious troll.
and after bestiality it will be pedophilia right?
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The fact that people think this is an issue of morality says more about them than the people who are transgendered.
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On January 28 2010 13:52 Hanners wrote:
The fact that people think this is an issue of morality says more about them than the people who are transgendered.
how is accepting people who want to be a woman into society or vice versa ; have anything to outside morality?
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It's funny they both grew beards, to prove how much not women they were.
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I don't see how other guys can get confused about their sexual orientation.
What porn do you watch?
There's your answer.
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On January 28 2010 13:57 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 13:52 Hanners wrote:
The fact that people think this is an issue of morality says more about them than the people who are transgendered. how is accepting people who want to be a woman into society or vice versa ; have anything to outside morality?
how is accepting people who are women with an unfortunate birth defect into society or vice versa ; have anything to do with morality?
Compare the two. Yours says that there's a moral issue. A transsexual's perspective says that there's not. I think they know themselves better than you do. So the question is: Why insist that you're "right" when the best that you can do is speculate?
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On January 28 2010 12:41 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. its not frustrating and sad. and if people dont start saying shit one day society might accept this bullshit. not on my fucking watch. not on my watch...
Fuck you and your watch
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"Is this how you make dinosaurs?"
"no... this is how you play God."
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On January 28 2010 14:44 omfghi2u2 wrote:
"Is this how you make dinosaurs?"
"no... this is how you play God."
Don't limit God to such petty things.
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On January 28 2010 12:33 [ZiNC]Ling wrote:
This is really confusing to me honestly. The female to male transsexual people that I know usually say that the idea of carrying a baby and being a mother is repulsive to them. my guess is that this couple really wanted to have a baby that was made from their genes, so the FtM is willing to carry the baby in order to do it. He doesn't produce sperm to donate to the child, because we can't surgically add that capability, so he can only give his egg as genetic material.
But the argument on the pregnancy still holds. If what you say about FtM being a mother is "repulsive", why can't you be a dad and put the baby in a tube? In that case you wouldn't have to bear a child as a mother, and instead you will be the dad will u not? So to me FtM being a dad is more acceptable to me logically, as men are dads not moms.
On January 28 2010 12:39 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 12:03 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. The point I'm trying to make here is, do people mean it when people say they want a sex change that they "feel like they are a man trapped inside a woman's body"? On to what they are doing. Yeah I admit its contradictory, and I don't really understand it. But you have to give up a lot to switch gender roles, and maybe that was one thing they wanted to keep. Maybe they just wanted their children to feel more like 'their' children and pregnancy is a way to achieve that. There are plenty of consistent ftm tgs out there who live a perfectly happy, normal male life. If you pass them on the street, even if you are friends with them, you wont realize they used to be biologically female.
I'd imagine TGs are happier, otherwise what's the point of going through it right?
I'm accepting the idea of FtM (though I don't support it), but I don't understand why FtM carry babies...part of being a man is not being pregnant. If you are a man (and you want to be one so badly) wouldn't you want to be a dad? Dads dont get pregnant...I know this is stepping into technicality but im still shocked at the idea that a woman would go through the TG process to become a man, and then wanting to carry a baby and be a mom. To me that's having motherly feelings, and obviously that's being a woman more than a man. So this is why I cannot accept the idea that the pregnant man is a "man trapped inside a woman's body".
If this is a case of in vitro fertilization or having another woman as a carrier for the baby then I'll at least accept the fact the FtM really means it when he says he wants to be a man.
I'm not judging all of the TG there, I apologize if I sounded like I was, it's just the pregnant man issue that bothers me.
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On January 28 2010 12:37 Hanners wrote:
Try thinking in less absolutist terms.
I think im less of an absolutist than some of the posters here, though I do agree with them on this issue. One thing is I accepted the idea that FtM is a male, so if I was really an absolutist i wouldnt even cross that boundary in the first place, let alone trying to understand the moral issue behind this
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On January 28 2010 22:55 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 12:33 [ZiNC]Ling wrote:
This is really confusing to me honestly. The female to male transsexual people that I know usually say that the idea of carrying a baby and being a mother is repulsive to them. my guess is that this couple really wanted to have a baby that was made from their genes, so the FtM is willing to carry the baby in order to do it. He doesn't produce sperm to donate to the child, because we can't surgically add that capability, so he can only give his egg as genetic material. But the argument on the pregnancy still holds. If what you say about FtM being a mother is "repulsive", why can't you be a dad and put the baby in a tube? In that case you wouldn't have to bear a child as a mother, and instead you will be the dad will u not? So to me FtM being a dad is more acceptable to me logically, as men are dads not moms. Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 12:39 fusionsdf wrote:On January 28 2010 12:03 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:On January 28 2010 09:08 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i'm sure there are men that would want to give birth if they had the option to, just like some women don't want to have kids. this couple has the opportunity to have a child, so why not?
not every transgendered person fits into just male or female, there's a much larger spectrum, so identifying as a man and wanting to give birth isn't impossible. on the other side, male to female transsexuals can not give birth, so does that lessen their identity as women? many have their sperm frozen prior to beginning transition so one day they can have kids with someone, does that mean they are less of a woman because they kept their male semen?
i'm fine if you don't understand or agree with this, but to have people in this thread continuously say it's disgusting, unnatural or an abomination is really frustrating and sad. The point I'm trying to make here is, do people mean it when people say they want a sex change that they "feel like they are a man trapped inside a woman's body"? On to what they are doing. Yeah I admit its contradictory, and I don't really understand it. But you have to give up a lot to switch gender roles, and maybe that was one thing they wanted to keep. Maybe they just wanted their children to feel more like 'their' children and pregnancy is a way to achieve that. There are plenty of consistent ftm tgs out there who live a perfectly happy, normal male life. If you pass them on the street, even if you are friends with them, you wont realize they used to be biologically female. I'd imagine TGs are happier, otherwise what's the point of going through it right? I'm accepting the idea of FtM (though I don't support it), but I don't understand why FtM carry babies...part of being a man is not being pregnant. If you are a man (and you want to be one so badly) wouldn't you want to be a dad? Dads dont get pregnant...I know this is stepping into technicality but im still shocked at the idea that a woman would go through the TG process to become a man, and then wanting to carry a baby and be a mom. To me that's having motherly feelings, and obviously that's being a woman more than a man. So this is why I cannot accept the idea that the pregnant man is a "man trapped inside a woman's body". If this is a case of in vitro fertilization or having another woman as a carrier for the baby then I'll at least accept the fact the FtM really means it when he says he wants to be a man. I'm not judging all of the TG there, I apologize if I sounded like I was, it's just the pregnant man issue that bothers me.
I don't see how men aren't allowed to want to carry a child. It's more a physical limitation then anything else. If that limitation didn't exist, I'm sure plenty of men would choose to carry children.
Sure it's more legit to accept the bad (or good XD) parts of being a man as well as the good, but if you didn't have to, why would you?
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Do you think they got the sex change cuz they were fat chics or do you think they put on the lbs
afterwards. I wonder if it was hormones or they were just fat and unhappy to start with.
I think this is a key and vital question to understanding their governing principles and thoughts.
At least a lot more interesting than the morality of sex change operations.
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On January 29 2010 00:17 SuperJongMan wrote:
Do you think they got the sex change cuz they were fat chics or do you think they put on the lbs
afterwards. I wonder if it was hormones or they were just fat and unhappy to start with.
I think this is a key and vital question to understanding their governing principles and thoughts.
At least a lot more interesting than the morality of sex change operations.
imo they looked the same just gained beards
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Eh, as long as their medical fees are paid for privately. I don't really see why anyone should even care. I am much more amazed that people here found this interesting enough to spout 10+ pages on the topic as opposed to the topic itself.
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EPT
