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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:10 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 21:02 damenmofa wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:52 d_so wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 Tinithor wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 pr0t0ss wrote:
LJD play is beautifull
it's like a classic music, like a symphony
he deserved everyone of his wins
what can fantasy do? some bunker cheese?
MSL mean much less than OSL after all
this OSL became Jaedong's coronation for the bownja, best of the best of the best al times, etc. title I just do NOT understand how people can be SO BIASED to one side or the other! I really cant! Jaedong failed in Proleague Grand Finals, Fantasy failed in OSL Semi Finals, who the fuck are YOU to judge who is better? u need to calm down. simiple fact is that, for whatever reason, OSL championships are worth the most for an individual player. Winning a few games in Proleague is commendable but doesn't hold the same clout as an OSL championship actually thats more our perspective than theirs. proleague grand final is the single most important event to every progamer thats the most overgeneralizing assumption I have ever read. You cant even speak korean but certainly you know what is most important to every progamer... i've been following this stuff for a long time man, i definitely know the situation on this subject  so what? Ive been watching ProSC since Grrr... vs [B&G]TheBoy finals (at least thats the first finals i distinctively remember). How long have you been watching?
so your reason for quoting my post is to say 'you can't possibly know for sure because you haven't talked to every progamer AND there's know way you can know whether or not they're lying'?
im gonna recommend you stop talking about this right now, i certainly won't be responding on the matter anymore
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We need Sea_Shield to start tearing up a league and thanking TL in postgame interviews we can all be happy and root for him, instead of all this bashing.
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I missed these games, i'm gonna kill myself:| But reading whole thread i'm kinda happy, cause there will no longer be "JaeDong slump!" thread mania! :D I'm also quite happy to see ZvZ finals in OSL. Just like i voted in the poll 
Waiting for "Fantasy is in slump" threads though :\
And about that upgrades discussion - if you think mathematically, then after getting at least 12 tanks you get +70 dmg total, so it's power of additional tank  And one of tanks' biggest pro's is their range and "first strike effect", so the more power they get, the less units will survive until they get in range to actually hit tanks.
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United States2186 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:59 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it. that's possible. we can't say for sure how jaedong would react but i'm fairly certain he could break down that wall with zerglings whether there was a marine present or not. killing those vultures would be his #1 priority once he saw the wall was trapping them, and he was making additional lings already by the time his first ones arrived. he may or may not have continued production of 'em, we'll never know hahah
A marine would've made a lot of difference. He was hitting the wall for minutes? it seemed.
But unless I'm missing something only the top right (well maybe topleft but JD was there) spawn had the vulture pop out on the wrong side of the wall (the marine was simply a mistake though). It worked out in the end but if Fantasy spawned at either position JD would've been at a huge disadvantage given Fantasy could safely produce behind the wall. Pretty funny how much of a difference the spawn made.
It's hard to tell how much Fantasy was to blame for losing the last game, aside from that marine blunder, but it's just so frustrating seeing him win with amazing strategies and then made horrible horrible plays at key points in key games (game 5 of the final comes to mind...). Why does such an incomplete player have to inherit the SKT1 line 
Game 2 was awesome play by Jaedong and game 1 was a textbook strategical ownage but this was a very series disappointing overall.
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On August 14 2009 21:03 Plutonium wrote:
Fantasy's performance in the Proleague finals Ace match wasn't really his. It was Boxer's strategy and mind games through and through.
I don't think Fantasy has the type of champion gut instincts to beat the greatest when he's up there alone on the stage. He can pretty much outmuscle anyone when he's had a strategy prepared for him, or if they're playing in the dark as well, but when it comes down to a pitched battle on all levels in a Bo5, he just can't hold his own against the adaptive and strategic minds of the truly great players.
yep so true, in his interview he admitted that he was happy to be allowed to play boxers build, he just hasn't the star sense
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got it
![[image loading]](http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2337/21oy1hk.png)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:13 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it. that's possible. we can't say for sure how jaedong would react but i'm fairly certain he could break down that wall with zerglings whether there was a marine present or not. killing those vultures would be his #1 priority once he saw the wall was trapping them, and he was making additional lings already by the time his first ones arrived. he may or may not have continued production of 'em, we'll never know hahah A marine would've made a lot of difference. He was hitting the wall for minutes? it seemed. But unless I'm missing something only the top right (well maybe topleft but JD was there) spawn had the vulture pop out on the wrong side of the wall (the marine was simply a mistake though). It worked out in the end but if Fantasy spawned at either position JD would've been at a huge disadvantage given Fantasy could safely produce behind the wall. Pretty funny how much of a difference the spawn made. It's hard to tell how much Fantasy was to blame for losing the last game, aside from that marine blunder, but it's just so frustrating seeing him win with amazing strategies and then made horrible horrible plays at key points in key games (game 5 of the final comes to mind...). Why does such an incomplete player have to inherit the SKT1 line Game 2 was awesome play by Jaedong and game 1 was a textbook strategical ownage but this was a very series disappointing overall.
the marine would make a lot of difference if jaedong continually pounded on the wall. i think we can be sure that jaedong would attempt to trap the vultures regardless, and that he seemed to be continually producing lings one way or another. that's the only reason i'm skeptical about the difference one marine would make, i think the general outcome would be the same: dead vultures and a ton of zerglings busting down a barracks
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Anyways, great series overall and now I can go to bed happy! ^___^
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On August 14 2009 21:01 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:00 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 GTR wrote:
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes. he didn't get upgrades for the tanks in the PL outsider match either. i was confused about this too. i think the +5 damage is inconsequential against Z ground forces as hydras die one hit to tanks anyway and zerglings only take 25 percent damage.
What? Hydras have 80hp, they don't die from one hit. Only time you can 1-hit hydras is if you have +2 attack, unless they have armor which means you need +3.
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On August 14 2009 21:16 Dice84 wrote:
Anyways, great series overall and now I can go to bed happy! ^___^
feel asleep during the first game so happy i can now finish it and i'll enjoy it
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On August 14 2009 20:56 Uligor wrote:
I, admittedly a Fantasy fan, must disagree with the comparison between Fantasy's cheese and Jaedong's cheese.
Fantasy's cheese was not just a simple BBS, it was a smart fake wall-in strategy that was new and innovative. Jaedong's 4 pool on the other hand was not innovative at all, though to his credit he did display cleverness by hiding the additional lings.
The statement "You liked Fantasy's cheese so therefore you cannot dislike Jaedong's cheese" is therefore in my opinion inaccurate because they were different on a strategic level.
The statement is also a double-edged sword because a good portion of the Jaedong fans now cheering for Jaedong's cheese loathed Fantasy's cheese.
While I understand that the whole "cheese hate" is simply an excuse to bash another player, I still think I should point that this statement is shallow.
how unique can you get at a zerg all-in/cheese?
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On August 14 2009 21:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:13 Ver wrote:On August 14 2009 21:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it. that's possible. we can't say for sure how jaedong would react but i'm fairly certain he could break down that wall with zerglings whether there was a marine present or not. killing those vultures would be his #1 priority once he saw the wall was trapping them, and he was making additional lings already by the time his first ones arrived. he may or may not have continued production of 'em, we'll never know hahah A marine would've made a lot of difference. He was hitting the wall for minutes? it seemed. But unless I'm missing something only the top right (well maybe topleft but JD was there) spawn had the vulture pop out on the wrong side of the wall (the marine was simply a mistake though). It worked out in the end but if Fantasy spawned at either position JD would've been at a huge disadvantage given Fantasy could safely produce behind the wall. Pretty funny how much of a difference the spawn made. It's hard to tell how much Fantasy was to blame for losing the last game, aside from that marine blunder, but it's just so frustrating seeing him win with amazing strategies and then made horrible horrible plays at key points in key games (game 5 of the final comes to mind...). Why does such an incomplete player have to inherit the SKT1 line Game 2 was awesome play by Jaedong and game 1 was a textbook strategical ownage but this was a very series disappointing overall. the marine would make a lot of difference if jaedong continually pounded on the wall. i think we can be sure that jaedong would attempt to trap the vultures regardless, and that he seemed to be continually producing lings one way or another. that's the only reason i'm skeptical about the difference one marine would make, i think the general outcome would be the same: dead vultures and a ton of zerglings busting down a barracks
Marine behind wall was not possible because like the vults marines spawned outside of the wall he made 1-2 marines but died to lings so he stoped making them
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:17 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:01 d_so wrote:On August 14 2009 21:00 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 GTR wrote:
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes. he didn't get upgrades for the tanks in the PL outsider match either. i was confused about this too. i think the +5 damage is inconsequential against Z ground forces as hydras die one hit to tanks anyway and zerglings only take 25 percent damage. What? Hydras have 80hp, they don't die from one hit. Only time you can 1-hit hydras is if you have +2 attack, unless they have armor which means you need +3.
no. you can never 1 hit a hydra with tanks. explosive damage man, max is 85*.75 = 63.75. also zerglings take 50 percent damage. god d_so wtf
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:13 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it. that's possible. we can't say for sure how jaedong would react but i'm fairly certain he could break down that wall with zerglings whether there was a marine present or not. killing those vultures would be his #1 priority once he saw the wall was trapping them, and he was making additional lings already by the time his first ones arrived. he may or may not have continued production of 'em, we'll never know hahah A marine would've made a lot of difference. He was hitting the wall for minutes? it seemed. But unless I'm missing something only the top right (well maybe topleft but JD was there) spawn had the vulture pop out on the wrong side of the wall (the marine was simply a mistake though). It worked out in the end but if Fantasy spawned at either position JD would've been at a huge disadvantage given Fantasy could safely produce behind the wall. Pretty funny how much of a difference the spawn made. It's hard to tell how much Fantasy was to blame for losing the last game, aside from that marine blunder, but it's just so frustrating seeing him win with amazing strategies and then made horrible horrible plays at key points in key games (game 5 of the final comes to mind...). Why does such an incomplete player have to inherit the SKT1 line Game 2 was awesome play by Jaedong and game 1 was a textbook strategical ownage but this was a very series disappointing overall.
I thought RotK had 2 starting positions where the vulture spawns outside when walling with Rax/Fac (top & bottom right), but I just tested it and you're right - it is only the top right one. Pretty unlucky t_t
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
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I'm sad for Fantasy but happy to see JD smiling again.
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On August 14 2009 21:17 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:01 d_so wrote:On August 14 2009 21:00 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 GTR wrote:
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes. he didn't get upgrades for the tanks in the PL outsider match either. i was confused about this too. i think the +5 damage is inconsequential against Z ground forces as hydras die one hit to tanks anyway and zerglings only take 25 percent damage. What? Hydras have 80hp, they don't die from one hit. Only time you can 1-hit hydras is if you have +2 attack, unless they have armor which means you need +3.
Actually Hydras are medium so they get 75% of tank's dmg. (Explosive is 50% small, 75% medium, 100% large)
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On August 14 2009 21:20 konadora wrote:
one beer down
how many more to go?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:19 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 21:13 Ver wrote:On August 14 2009 21:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:59 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it. that's possible. we can't say for sure how jaedong would react but i'm fairly certain he could break down that wall with zerglings whether there was a marine present or not. killing those vultures would be his #1 priority once he saw the wall was trapping them, and he was making additional lings already by the time his first ones arrived. he may or may not have continued production of 'em, we'll never know hahah A marine would've made a lot of difference. He was hitting the wall for minutes? it seemed. But unless I'm missing something only the top right (well maybe topleft but JD was there) spawn had the vulture pop out on the wrong side of the wall (the marine was simply a mistake though). It worked out in the end but if Fantasy spawned at either position JD would've been at a huge disadvantage given Fantasy could safely produce behind the wall. Pretty funny how much of a difference the spawn made. It's hard to tell how much Fantasy was to blame for losing the last game, aside from that marine blunder, but it's just so frustrating seeing him win with amazing strategies and then made horrible horrible plays at key points in key games (game 5 of the final comes to mind...). Why does such an incomplete player have to inherit the SKT1 line Game 2 was awesome play by Jaedong and game 1 was a textbook strategical ownage but this was a very series disappointing overall. the marine would make a lot of difference if jaedong continually pounded on the wall. i think we can be sure that jaedong would attempt to trap the vultures regardless, and that he seemed to be continually producing lings one way or another. that's the only reason i'm skeptical about the difference one marine would make, i think the general outcome would be the same: dead vultures and a ton of zerglings busting down a barracks Marine behind wall was not possible because like the vults marines spawned outside of the wall he made 1-2 marines but died to lings so he stoped making them
ah, actually he made one, cancelled it, then made another which died to zerglings. I'm pretty sure he'd have had time to lift his rax and get the first marine inside had he not cancelled it, but i'd have to watch the game again because my post-game memory is already a little fuzzy hahahah
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:21 StorrZerg wrote:how many more to go?
probably 4
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EPT
