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On August 08 2009 08:59 Delerium wrote:
there's no way I'm going to read 80 pages of this thread to figure out if this has already been noted, but this is what all the cool kids on TL's vent server this morning were saying to each other
9. As a result of Jaedong not killing Fantasy back earlier in the game, a bloated, crippled Fantasy with no income and an enormous military pushed out and broke Jaedong's back by sniping one defiler. Seriously. If that defiler had casted two swarms instead of one, Fantasy would have lost.
I strongly disagree on this. If you look at the minimap just before Fantasy crushed JD's army :
- Bottom-left gas still undepleted and defended with about one control group of mnm
- Center-right cc under construction, with a lot of scvs available and already long-distance mining
- JD's upper expo very very low on drone saturation just a few minutes before and it certainly didn't got better since, seeing how critical it was to build an army at this point
Add to this :
- Sizeable army reinforcements in the center of the map and out of Fantasy's nat, about two control groups of marines and at least two tanks
- 3/3 marines are really not that helpless against ultraling
I'm not sure who these cool kids on vent are, but I'd really like to hear an explanation about how the fuck JD was going to win this, even if he somehow managed to kill most of Fantasy's sieged tanks during the last battle (what only one additional swarm would not have been enough to ensure anyway).
I do kinda agree with some of the other points though.
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Fantasy had as many if not more expos than JD all game.
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Edit: Too late on answering stuff.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
Just adding on, Jaedong was never THAT much ahead of Fantasy. Sure he had 4 gas, but small mistakes and many small harass by Fantasy on Jaedong's expos (killing a few drones, forcing JD to waste units defending it, extractor snipes etc) as well as constant irradiates on the ultralisks (despite losing vessels in the process) was something that Fantasy did really well.
Come on, you do have to give at least some credit to Fantasy for playing so well and smart.
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Yeah That game was Fantasy playing well... maybe JD didnt play his best but that was just cus that was Fantasy's game after he did the 8rax... JD used to much drones and after the "failed" bunker rush Fantasy already started his CC on the back... Maybe JD should use muta but we never know if that would worked. And for me at least after the Vessels with irradiate are out mutas sux (for my opinion)
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On August 08 2009 08:59 Delerium wrote:
there's no way I'm going to read 80 pages of this thread to figure out if this has already been noted, but this is what all the cool kids on TL's vent server this morning were saying to each other
9. As a result of Jaedong not killing Fantasy back earlier in the game, a bloated, crippled Fantasy with no income and an enormous military pushed out and broke Jaedong's back by sniping one defiler. Seriously. If that defiler had casted two swarms instead of one, Fantasy would have lost.
With that many tanks, he might've taken out a few tanks but DEFINITELY not a whole army. Tank splash is ridiculous and who knows how many upgrades Fantasy got on them by that time. Even though the marines helped somewhat since the swarm didn't allow the ultras to be completely covered at contact with Fantasy's army, they melted really quickly before they even got to attack. And the second wave of siege tank attacks finished it off even though a swarm barely got in. (I'm not sure if the swarm was quick enough though).
On August 08 2009 10:05 konadora wrote:
Just adding on, Jaedong was never THAT much ahead of Fantasy. Sure he had 4 gas, but small mistakes and many small harass by Fantasy on Jaedong's expos (killing a few drones, forcing JD to waste units defending it, extractor snipes etc) as well as constant irradiates on the ultralisks (despite losing vessels in the process) was something that Fantasy did really well.
Come on, you do have to give at least some credit to Fantasy for playing so well and smart.
Thinking about it now, Fantasy was pretty much trading vessels for defilers, so they were even in that respect. They were toe-to-toe in expansions, so they were even in that respect as well. And with a lack of defilers (due to vessels), JD could only push so far before he lost the cover of dark swarm. With Fantasy's crazy oov-like macro, Fantasy could always defend against JD's halfway-across-the-map pushes. So, after holding off JD's time-slot with 6 gas (throughout the whole game) he just had to make sure JD couldn't get 9 o'clock.
This game was so crazy for both players. Such amazing multi-task. I'd like to think that Fantasy was doing those drops on the 9 o'clock cliff just to force JD to multi-task as much as him and use up scourges on dropships, which are cheaper than SVs.
It's too bad that I don't get the same feeling watching the replay as I did when I watched it live. So incredible.
On August 08 2009 10:13 FranzF1 wrote:
Yeah That game was Fantasy playing well... maybe JD didnt play his best but that was just cus that was Fantasy's game after he did the 8rax... JD used to much drones and after the "failed" bunker rush Fantasy already started his CC on the back... Maybe JD should use muta but we never know if that would worked. And for me at least after the Vessels with irradiate are out mutas sux (for my opinion)
Mutas do suck when science vessels are out. That's why pro-gamers tech to vessels/irradiate to deal with monster muta-micro like JD's. No stacking for you. :D
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fantasy vs. jaedong was a really great game that had me on the edge my seat for the whole game.
but just one question, ive seen a lot of zergs go guardians on outsider, but to no avail most of the time (unless i havent seen the right games), is it really worth it going guardians?
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Okay ... so will there be any more K-rock and hairy armpits today? ...
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On August 08 2009 08:59 Delerium wrote:
there's no way I'm going to read 80 pages of this thread to figure out if this has already been noted, but this is what all the cool kids on TL's vent server this morning were saying to each other
The Jaedong v Fantasy game was terrible, terrible starcraft - conceptually, not in execution. While most of you were seeing "amagad amazing scourge cloning" and creaming your jeans about infested terrans in ZvT, this is what we were seeing:
1. Fantasy failed a bunker rush
2. Fantasy suicided his military into sunkens
3. Jaedong (thinking he had the game won(?)) attempted an embarass-move by rushing to guardians
4. Jaedong (with a lone mutalisk) scouted Fantasy's 2 port - then did nothing about it. He didn't even make a hydra den.
5. Jaedong's guardians were repelled by the build Jaedong scouted and did nothing about
6. Fantasy took over half of the map and ran his campaign off of 6 bases
7. Jaedong's godly execution (and the fact that he was still ahead despite failing his in-game ceremony) destroyed Fantasy - scourge cloning, swarm/ultra, took out his expansions, the works
8. Still thinking he was much more ahead than he actually was, Jaedong focused on another in-game ceremony, infested a CC and floated it toward fantasy
9. As a result of Jaedong not killing Fantasy back earlier in the game, a bloated, crippled Fantasy with no income and an enormous military pushed out and broke Jaedong's back by sniping one defiler. Seriously. If that defiler had casted two swarms instead of one, Fantasy would have lost.
as you can see by my icon, I'm an OZ fan (and thus a Jaedong fan), but I think he played like shit. He played really really well, but he played cocky (that's my best guess). You're supposed to win the game first and THEN do an in-game ceremony. he tried to put on a show way too early
they BOTH played like shit, though. I have to give fantasy major props for hanging on for dear life and not typing out when he lost his entire military. His decision to expand all over the map saved him, because Jaedong didn't punish him for it.
the whole 0-4 series was terrible, though. It was really bad starcraft all around. I regret getting up so early to watch it.
Actually, set 2 was pretty good from Canata's end. Lomo playing badly was the reason it was a bad set. Canata's rape of Lomo was well done. everybody else was terrible, relative to the quality of play we should expect in a Grand Finals. Unless you count Jaedong's micro and Fantasy's macro... but set 1 was awful in the Big Picture
tactically there was much fail involved in this game, indeed. but i wouldnt be so hard on jaedong. he has a super-important osl semifinal against fantasy next week and the last time they met fantasy came very close to winning and stealing the osl title from jaedong. so jd had a really strong incentive to mindrape fantasy and shatter his confidence. failing at it ofc will backfire. although i dont wanna imagine jaedongs mood when he enters the osl semifinal against fantasy after losing the pl grand final 0-4 0-4.... might aswell backfire on fantasy! 
the big question i ask myself is if jd was aware of the tanks massing up slowly at fantasy´s nat or if he wasnt.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On August 08 2009 10:30 blahman3344 wrote:
fantasy vs. jaedong was a really great game that had me on the edge my seat for the whole game.
but just one question, ive seen a lot of zergs go guardians on outsider, but to no avail most of the time (unless i havent seen the right games), is it really worth it going guardians?
the design of the map allows the zerg player to go fast guardians while expanding along the outer expansions. Guardians are mainly for protecting the nat (preventing sunken breaks)
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Just thought i would try to contribute to this discussion:
1) I actually thought Fantasy was ahead for most of that game. After the failed bunker rush and sunken break, at least.
When Terran and Zerg are even in terms of bases, the Terran is way ahead. Even losing tons of units iloveOov-style, as Fantasy was doing, is okay with this kind of macro-Terran play.
2) And I actually thought that the backbreaker came with Fantasy's 3-o'clock push, not with the one defiler that people seem to be so fixated on during that big battle in the middle.
On the right side of the map, we clearly see that when Fantasy mines out his own minerals, he pushes up with large numbers of MMF. Jaedong doesn't have substantial defenses there, and Fantasy takes out extractor-hatch-extractor. He then threatens Jaedong's defiler mound, which of course was key to Jaedong being in the game at all.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
What fantasy was doing was trading vessels for ultras, defilers and scourges while keeping the majority of his army (and his tanks) alive.
That way, he doesn't lose the strength of that one big push, while Jaedong has depleted one or two of his geysers (and Fantasy pushes out just as JD was about to get the 9 nat gas) and his main army is weakened and scattered. This only worked because Fantasy had expanded everywhere as well.
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konadora - are you making the day 2 thread? i like it when people are hyping for 10+ pages before anything has started!
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In my opinion, they were very even for most of the game... except for the Tanks Fantasy was massing. It was such a smart move to hold back his tank force until he reached Ultra popping critical mass.
Watching an entire wave of Ultras smashed by a single siege volley was so beautiful.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On August 08 2009 10:50 Random_0 wrote:
konadora - are you making the day 2 thread? i like it when people are hyping for 10+ pages before anything has started!
nope, won't be at home again
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On August 08 2009 11:09 Orbifold wrote:
In my opinion, they were very even for most of the game... except for the Tanks Fantasy was massing. It was such a smart move to hold back his tank force until he reached Ultra popping critical mass.
Watching an entire wave of Ultras smashed by a single siege volley was so beautiful.
i know!!!!. ultras melt under siege tanks <3333333
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Game 1 - Outsider - Fantasy vs Jaedong
Late late game on Outsider is scary for zerg against terran. Not only can terran hoard a lot of gas for mass vessels AND tanks, zerg's base and expansion have more than 1 entrance in once the minerals are mind out. It becames hard for zerg to defend multiple fronts. On any other map, with that many gas lead Jaedong would crush Fantasy, but not on Outsider. Jaedong is at a disadvantage if Jaedong doesn't kill Fantasy off earlier.
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On August 08 2009 08:59 Delerium wrote:
there's no way I'm going to read 80 pages of this thread to figure out if this has already been noted, but this is what all the cool kids on TL's vent server this morning were saying to each other
The Jaedong v Fantasy game was terrible, terrible starcraft - conceptually, not in execution. While most of you were seeing "amagad amazing scourge cloning" and creaming your jeans about infested terrans in ZvT, this is what we were seeing:
1. Fantasy failed a bunker rush
2. Fantasy suicided his military into sunkens
3. Jaedong (thinking he had the game won(?)) attempted an embarass-move by rushing to guardians
4. Jaedong (with a lone mutalisk) scouted Fantasy's 2 port - then did nothing about it. He didn't even make a hydra den.
5. Jaedong's guardians were repelled by the build Jaedong scouted and did nothing about
6. Fantasy took over half of the map and ran his campaign off of 6 bases
7. Jaedong's godly execution (and the fact that he was still ahead despite failing his in-game ceremony) destroyed Fantasy - scourge cloning, swarm/ultra, took out his expansions, the works
8. Still thinking he was much more ahead than he actually was, Jaedong focused on another in-game ceremony, infested a CC and floated it toward fantasy
9. As a result of Jaedong not killing Fantasy back earlier in the game, a bloated, crippled Fantasy with no income and an enormous military pushed out and broke Jaedong's back by sniping one defiler. Seriously. If that defiler had casted two swarms instead of one, Fantasy would have lost.
as you can see by my icon, I'm an OZ fan (and thus a Jaedong fan), but I think he played like shit. He played really really well, but he played cocky (that's my best guess). You're supposed to win the game first and THEN do an in-game ceremony. he tried to put on a show way too early
they BOTH played like shit, though. I have to give fantasy major props for hanging on for dear life and not typing out when he lost his entire military. His decision to expand all over the map saved him, because Jaedong didn't punish him for it.
the whole 0-4 series was terrible, though. It was really bad starcraft all around. I regret getting up so early to watch it.
Actually, set 2 was pretty good from Canata's end. Lomo playing badly was the reason it was a bad set. Canata's rape of Lomo was well done. everybody else was terrible, relative to the quality of play we should expect in a Grand Finals. Unless you count Jaedong's micro and Fantasy's macro... but set 1 was awful in the Big Picture
1. Jaedong is just really good at stopping bunker rushes.
2. About a control group of marines with 4 medics against 4 sunkens, one weakened, why not? IMO the attack came a bit late and the marine micro wasn't the best, but if fantasy went on with the attack earlier, he probably would of did a successful sunken break. He was waiting for the 3 marines to come, but they were too late anyways.
3. Jaedong's economy wasn't great after the failed bunker rush. He pulled 8 drones during the time and 2 of them died. He had late gas and probably wanted something to hold fantasy back while the goes on to get ultra ling. He chose to make a spire probably because he knew that fantasy was going vessels and he needed the scourge late game.
4. He saw 2 port and he thought that he can fend it off with just scourges and devourer so he didn't get the hydra den, because it'll interrupt his ultra ling timing.
5. Did jaedong even lose a guardian to a wraith?
6. Jaedong got drop tech and dropped ultras to stop fantasy's expansions.
7. True.
8. Infesting cc at such a close game is not really in game ceremony. The cc was lifted and his army consisted of ultra ling. By getting one queen, he can infest ccs that are almost dead, which will force fantasy to spend another 400 min to make another cc.
9. Jaedong was pratically mined out, while fantasy had like 10 tanks the whole time that was seiged in his base. Jaedong had no army, and fantasy did a kill or be killed push, and it worked because he was saving up the tanks.
It wasn't a terrible game. Sure there were some mistakes, but the game started of unusually and it proceeded from there. And perfect games are less intense then imperfect games, which makes this even better to watch.
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On August 08 2009 11:43 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Game 1 - Outsider - Fantasy vs Jaedong
Late late game on Outsider is scary for zerg against terran. Not only can terran hoard a lot of gas for mass vessels AND tanks, zerg's base and expansion have more than 1 entrance in once the minerals are mind out. It becames hard for zerg to defend multiple fronts. On any other map, with that many gas lead Jaedong would crush Fantasy, but not on Outsider. Jaedong is at a disadvantage if Jaedong doesn't kill Fantasy off earlier.
Hahahahahahahhahahahah
Hahahah
What are you talking about? Every single game up now, all zerg has to do on outsider is survive for 20 minutes then it's autowin against terran. They just stuff their one chokepoint with a million sunkens (check) then grab 4 bases including a double gas (check) then spam ultraling defiler scourge (check).
Fantasy just finally found a way to beat this for the first time ever. Jaedong thought he won because at that point zerg ALWAYS wins late game outsider, then he got stomped because of his arrogance. Even his coach said that jaedong got complacent with his advantage.
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On August 08 2009 11:43 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Game 1 - Outsider - Fantasy vs Jaedong
Late late game on Outsider is scary for zerg against terran. Not only can terran hoard a lot of gas for mass vessels AND tanks, zerg's base and expansion have more than 1 entrance in once the minerals are mind out. It becames hard for zerg to defend multiple fronts. On any other map, with that many gas lead Jaedong would crush Fantasy, but not on Outsider. Jaedong is at a disadvantage if Jaedong doesn't kill Fantasy off earlier.
which was exactly my point, and it was in my post: jaedong should have killed fantasy while fantasy was behind, but he tried to put on a show, and he lost because of it
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EPT
