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On August 08 2009 07:15 Mykill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 06:20 QuakerOats wrote:On August 08 2009 04:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 08 2009 03:58 QuakerOats wrote:On August 08 2009 03:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
This result just makes me more annoyed CJ lost in the last round. Would have been a much better series.. CJ could have lost 4-0 just as easily. Canata, Best, and fantasy are capable of beating pretty much anyone on CJ (maybe not some matchups, like Best vs Z, but then again Best wouldn't have beaten Jaedong either). Of course it'd depend on the matchups but I don't think it would've been much closer if CJ was playing. Are you kidding? Kwanro, Skyhigh, Effort, and Iris are without a doubt overall better and more consistent than any group you can name from OZ. There's no way they would've gone 4-0. Besides, why do people keep saying Best is so good and can do so well? He's done jack shit this entire year. He was good, now he's looking like he's slumping. Let's replace each Oz player with their CJ equivalent, as Avidkeystamper did. Fantasy vs Effort Canata vs Skyhigh Hyuk vs Savior BeSt vs Movie/Much I don't think the results would have been much different. fantasy vs Effort would've been close but so was fantasy vs Jaedong. Canata beat Skyhigh 2-0 just a few months ago. Hyuk beat Savior last month. Slumping or not Best would have beaten Movie or Much. Obviously CJ is a more well-rounded team than Oz with more consistent players, but I think it's stupid for people to say "wow, Oz sucks, CJ would do much better" especially considering Oz beat CJ 4-1 on the first day (which if we went by the old format would be the final score). Your just being plain ignorant. Fantasy vs Effort would be a very close one to call lets swing it both ways even though the map is zerg favored. Canata vs Skyhigh is again another 50/50 and we all know what Skyhigh can do. Hyuk vs Kwanro (why the fuck would they send savior?) Kwanro takes this, its SKT1 zerg Best vs Iris (i would give this to Iris, he just beat bisu) Bisu vs Movie/Much im sure 1 person can do something. thezerg vs anybody im sure CJ can win this one. your being ignorant about CJ's coach, he makes great picks all the time. and they won't send savior out because he's slumping like best.
Skyhigh can't beat Canata... realize that Canata is playing very solid right now...
Kwanro and Hyuk is just unpredictable. Maybe Kwanro has a better chance of winning, but no clear favorites.
Iris would destroy Best. Movie would also destroy Best if they played...
Bisu vs Movie/Much I don't know... Bisu is the favorite, but he definitely can be sniped by a smart strategy.
EDIT: I would add that SKT vs CJ would be better finals. SKT will destroy OZ again on day 2, there's no comparison between both teams.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 08 2009 07:15 Mykill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 06:20 QuakerOats wrote:On August 08 2009 04:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 08 2009 03:58 QuakerOats wrote:On August 08 2009 03:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
This result just makes me more annoyed CJ lost in the last round. Would have been a much better series.. CJ could have lost 4-0 just as easily. Canata, Best, and fantasy are capable of beating pretty much anyone on CJ (maybe not some matchups, like Best vs Z, but then again Best wouldn't have beaten Jaedong either). Of course it'd depend on the matchups but I don't think it would've been much closer if CJ was playing. Are you kidding? Kwanro, Skyhigh, Effort, and Iris are without a doubt overall better and more consistent than any group you can name from OZ. There's no way they would've gone 4-0. Besides, why do people keep saying Best is so good and can do so well? He's done jack shit this entire year. He was good, now he's looking like he's slumping. Let's replace each Oz player with their CJ equivalent, as Avidkeystamper did. Fantasy vs Effort Canata vs Skyhigh Hyuk vs Savior BeSt vs Movie/Much I don't think the results would have been much different. fantasy vs Effort would've been close but so was fantasy vs Jaedong. Canata beat Skyhigh 2-0 just a few months ago. Hyuk beat Savior last month. Slumping or not Best would have beaten Movie or Much. Obviously CJ is a more well-rounded team than Oz with more consistent players, but I think it's stupid for people to say "wow, Oz sucks, CJ would do much better" especially considering Oz beat CJ 4-1 on the first day (which if we went by the old format would be the final score). Your just being plain ignorant. Fantasy vs Effort would be a very close one to call lets swing it both ways even though the map is zerg favored. Canata vs Skyhigh is again another 50/50 and we all know what Skyhigh can do. Hyuk vs Kwanro (why the fuck would they send savior?) Kwanro takes this, its SKT1 zerg Best vs Iris (i would give this to Iris, he just beat bisu) Bisu vs Movie/Much im sure 1 person can do something. thezerg vs anybody im sure CJ can win this one. your being ignorant about CJ's coach, he makes great picks all the time. and they won't send savior out because he's slumping like best.
Let's rationalize everything and analyze it from a different perspective.
Fantasy vs Effort - Fantasy just destroyed Jaedong, the best zerg right now. Effort failed vs Iris. T1 1-0 CJ
Canata vs Skyhigh - Tossup. Both players playing well, with Canata known for being a TvT sniper. Let's give this game to Skyhigh. 1-1
Hyuk vs Kwanro - Hyuk sucks. Hyuk loses. 1-2
Best vs Iris - Yeah, Best is still pretty good at PvT, no matter what you say. 12-1 on Colosseum for Best. 2-2
Bisu vs Movie/Much - Yeah, Bisu's still pretty good at PvP. 3-2
TheZerg vs Whoever - Yeah, TheZerg sucks at ZvZ, but his other two matchups are decent. Still, we'll say that CJ probably comes out on top. 3-3
So it comes down to Ace match. Fantasy/Bisu vs Effort. Not much to say here besides T1 has more options for an Ace match than CJ.
However, with the way T1 players have been playing and CJ's poor playoff showing, it's quite possible that even if CJ advanced, a 4-0, yes a 4-0 with Hyuk winning would still be possible.
CJ's coach does make great picks. However, if his players don't feel like playing well that day, it means nothing. T1 zergs might be a bit weak, but the other four are more than capable of holding their ground against the best. Except when Best plays against zerg, then he insta-loses.
You can theory-craft your own scenario as to what might happen if so and so met, but at the end of the day, reality is CJ is at home, while T1 is at Busan fighting it out for a PL title. CJ might have depth, but where was the depth when they needed it? Iris losing to Perfectman, Movie being slaughtered by Hiya's huge ball of tanks, Jaedong owning Effort, and Backho schooling Snow. They say OZ has no depth, but CJ's alleged "depth" failed to deliver. Same with STX. Depth is good, but what's the use when you don't show up to play?
You can draw up the greatest lineups ever, with Iris playing Perfectman and oDin, and Jaedong getting to play CuteAngel. But when they lose at the end of the day, what's the use of getting allegedly good matchups and having good depth?
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On August 08 2009 07:15 QibingZero wrote:
Yes, but the problem is, SKT winning is like the Lakers/Yankees/etc winning. No one really cares other than those teams' fans.
So I don't really buy that an SKT win is 'better for esports' or anything like that, sorry.
Yes, but the problem is, Jaedong winning is like Kobe/Yao Ming/etc winning. No one really cares other than those players' fans.
So you're just a full-fledgling douchebag, sorry.
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On August 08 2009 07:42 ImNotBisu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 07:15 QibingZero wrote:
Yes, but the problem is, SKT winning is like the Lakers/Yankees/etc winning. No one really cares other than those teams' fans.
So I don't really buy that an SKT win is 'better for esports' or anything like that, sorry. Yes, but the problem is, Jaedong winning is like Kobe/Yao Ming/etc winning. No one really cares other than those players' fans. So you're just a full-fledgling douchebag, sorry.
OH SNAP, I never could have thought up of that comeback. Smart.
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Hyuk is going to dismantle JD. Calling it now.
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I recognize CJ has more depth and more reliable players than Oz, but with the lineup I suggested you can't deny there is a possibility of 4-0 for SKT. And I didn't pull the lineup out of my ass, I used CJ equivalents of the Oz lineup.
Jaedong -> Effort
Lomo -> Skyhigh
ggaemo -> Savior
BackHo -> Movie
Killer -> Kwanro
HiyA -> Iris
So no I didn't "ignore" Iris, he just would not have played just as Hiya did not play here. And you can say all you want that CJ's coach is smarter and would not have put these matchups but this is all hypothetical. The point is, CJ would not necessarily have made for a better series, especially considering they lost 4-1 to Oz.
Edit: And I know they won 4-0 the next day, but that also goes to show that CJ players are unreliable too. Yes, Iris beat Bisu in a BO5, but he also lost to odin and an Oz b-teamer. Yeah Movie is tied head-to-head with Jaedong and beat Leta but he lost to Justin and a heavily-slumping Hiya.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2009 04:09 Breavman wrote:
Proleage is just Proleage, no matter how hyped it is.
When people look back at the Starcraft greats in the future, they will remember the OSL and MSL winners. SKT T1 have their place in history as a proud unbroken line of underperformers and chokers. From Boxer (second half of his career) to Midas, to Best, to Bisu (will never win OSL), to Fantasy. The one exception is oov, but he on the other hand is a quitter who left the game when it got too tough.
God damn it I want them to lose in super ace.
Anyone who's been watching this game long enough will undoubtedly agree that Boxer has had been one of the single most influential figures (if not THE most influential figure) in the way Starcraft is played.
Being remembered is not just about winning Starleague titles. People remember players who have changed the dynamics of the game (in some sense, this is really what has made the bonjwas of the past), and SKT1 has more players who have done that than any other pro team.
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United States130 Posts
I love CJ and all but I don't understand the logic of people saying CJ would have done so much better vs SKT this match. If CJ played like shit like they did vs Oz in the first match during their games, they would have lost 4-0 to SKT just as easily.
People put way too much emphasis and judge players/teams way too much from the results of just one match. It's kind of silly. SKT just happened to play well and Oz didn't for a day, a single day, so you have all these rampaging people screaming about how Oz doesn't belong here and CJ would have been so much better and stuff. Well, the exact same situation happened in reverse to Oz last week, beating CJ 4-1.. .. but yet you didn't see tons of people screaming "LOL CJ IS SHIT THEY DONT BELONG IN THE SEMIS" just because they have more popular players. The truth is they do belong here, because they stomped CJ in the first day just like SKT did to them yesterday, and they happened to have a bad day while playing SKT. So let's hope they give a better performance in the next match, as they are obviously capable of, otherwise they wouldn't have finished 2nd overall and beat CJ to get here in the first place.
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there's no way I'm going to read 80 pages of this thread to figure out if this has already been noted, but this is what all the cool kids on TL's vent server this morning were saying to each other
The Jaedong v Fantasy game was terrible, terrible starcraft - conceptually, not in execution. While most of you were seeing "amagad amazing scourge cloning" and creaming your jeans about infested terrans in ZvT, this is what we were seeing:
1. Fantasy failed a bunker rush
2. Fantasy suicided his military into sunkens
3. Jaedong (thinking he had the game won(?)) attempted an embarass-move by rushing to guardians
4. Jaedong (with a lone mutalisk) scouted Fantasy's 2 port - then did nothing about it. He didn't even make a hydra den.
5. Jaedong's guardians were repelled by the build Jaedong scouted and did nothing about
6. Fantasy took over half of the map and ran his campaign off of 6 bases
7. Jaedong's godly execution (and the fact that he was still ahead despite failing his in-game ceremony) destroyed Fantasy - scourge cloning, swarm/ultra, took out his expansions, the works
8. Still thinking he was much more ahead than he actually was, Jaedong focused on another in-game ceremony, infested a CC and floated it toward fantasy
9. As a result of Jaedong not killing Fantasy back earlier in the game, a bloated, crippled Fantasy with no income and an enormous military pushed out and broke Jaedong's back by sniping one defiler. Seriously. If that defiler had casted two swarms instead of one, Fantasy would have lost.
as you can see by my icon, I'm an OZ fan (and thus a Jaedong fan), but I think he played like shit. He played really really well, but he played cocky (that's my best guess). You're supposed to win the game first and THEN do an in-game ceremony. he tried to put on a show way too early
they BOTH played like shit, though. I have to give fantasy major props for hanging on for dear life and not typing out when he lost his entire military. His decision to expand all over the map saved him, because Jaedong didn't punish him for it.
the whole 0-4 series was terrible, though. It was really bad starcraft all around. I regret getting up so early to watch it.
Actually, set 2 was pretty good from Canata's end. Lomo playing badly was the reason it was a bad set. Canata's rape of Lomo was well done. everybody else was terrible, relative to the quality of play we should expect in a Grand Finals. Unless you count Jaedong's micro and Fantasy's macro... but set 1 was awful in the Big Picture
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On August 08 2009 06:20 QuakerOats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 04:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 08 2009 03:58 QuakerOats wrote:On August 08 2009 03:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
This result just makes me more annoyed CJ lost in the last round. Would have been a much better series.. CJ could have lost 4-0 just as easily. Canata, Best, and fantasy are capable of beating pretty much anyone on CJ (maybe not some matchups, like Best vs Z, but then again Best wouldn't have beaten Jaedong either). Of course it'd depend on the matchups but I don't think it would've been much closer if CJ was playing. Are you kidding? Kwanro, Skyhigh, Effort, and Iris are without a doubt overall better and more consistent than any group you can name from OZ. There's no way they would've gone 4-0. Besides, why do people keep saying Best is so good and can do so well? He's done jack shit this entire year. He was good, now he's looking like he's slumping. Let's replace each Oz player with their CJ equivalent, as Avidkeystamper did. Fantasy vs Effort Canata vs Skyhigh Hyuk vs Savior BeSt vs Movie/Much I don't think the results would have been much different. fantasy vs Effort would've been close but so was fantasy vs Jaedong. Canata beat Skyhigh 2-0 just a few months ago. Hyuk beat Savior last month. Slumping or not Best would have beaten Movie or Much. Obviously CJ is a more well-rounded team than Oz with more consistent players, but I think it's stupid for people to say "wow, Oz sucks, CJ would do much better" especially considering Oz beat CJ 4-1 on the first day (which if we went by the old format would be the final score).
well here's the thing. CJ LOST. so shut the fuck up and enjoy the games
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Love SKT fans. One says "Jaedong got destroyed by Fantasy" followed by another saying "Skyhigh can't beat Canata." You can find these gems if you look between the blind rants about how everyone sucks and SKT is god b/c they fell upon a few good players. 
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CJ lost so i guess i have no right to predict shit.
it doesnt matter anyways.
Oz is just gonna lose 4-0 again.
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On August 08 2009 09:24 On_Slaught wrote:Love SKT fans. One says "Jaedong got destroyed by Fantasy" followed by another saying "Skyhigh can't beat Canata." You can find these gems if you look between the blind rants about how everyone sucks and SKT is god b/c they fell upon a few good players.
Oh Estro fans :D
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Yeah i enjoyed the games but come to think of it it didn't meet grand final proleague standards exactly.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 08 2009 04:29 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 04:09 Breavman wrote:
Proleage is just Proleage, no matter how hyped it is.
When people look back at the Starcraft greats in the future, they will remember the OSL and MSL winners. SKT T1 have their place in history as a proud unbroken line of underperformers and chokers. From Boxer (second half of his career) to Midas, to Best, to Bisu (will never win OSL), to Fantasy. The one exception is oov, but he on the other hand is a quitter who left the game when it got too tough.
God damn it I want them to lose in super ace. Oh I see, you're an idiot. Not sure how I almost missed that one. PL has the biggest audience and event comparable to the OSL. SKT was king of the pro-leagues for a long time. It was boxer and oovs simultaneous lack of activity that lead to the downfall of skt for a short period; yet notice how on boxers return from the army, SKT went on a tear.
Yeah, the emergence of Fantasy and buying Bisu had nothing to do with that.
At least this thread is making CJ fanboys look better. 
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On August 08 2009 09:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 04:29 Railz wrote:On August 08 2009 04:09 Breavman wrote:
Proleage is just Proleage, no matter how hyped it is.
When people look back at the Starcraft greats in the future, they will remember the OSL and MSL winners. SKT T1 have their place in history as a proud unbroken line of underperformers and chokers. From Boxer (second half of his career) to Midas, to Best, to Bisu (will never win OSL), to Fantasy. The one exception is oov, but he on the other hand is a quitter who left the game when it got too tough.
God damn it I want them to lose in super ace. Oh I see, you're an idiot. Not sure how I almost missed that one. PL has the biggest audience and event comparable to the OSL. SKT was king of the pro-leagues for a long time. It was boxer and oovs simultaneous lack of activity that lead to the downfall of skt for a short period; yet notice how on boxers return from the army, SKT went on a tear. Yeah, the emergence of Fantasy and buying Bisu had nothing to do with that. At least this thread is making CJ fanboys look better. NOTHING. It was the emperor. DON'T DOUBT YOU HEATHEN.
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On August 08 2009 09:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 04:29 Railz wrote:On August 08 2009 04:09 Breavman wrote:
Proleage is just Proleage, no matter how hyped it is.
When people look back at the Starcraft greats in the future, they will remember the OSL and MSL winners. SKT T1 have their place in history as a proud unbroken line of underperformers and chokers. From Boxer (second half of his career) to Midas, to Best, to Bisu (will never win OSL), to Fantasy. The one exception is oov, but he on the other hand is a quitter who left the game when it got too tough.
God damn it I want them to lose in super ace. Oh I see, you're an idiot. Not sure how I almost missed that one. PL has the biggest audience and event comparable to the OSL. SKT was king of the pro-leagues for a long time. It was boxer and oovs simultaneous lack of activity that lead to the downfall of skt for a short period; yet notice how on boxers return from the army, SKT went on a tear. Yeah, the emergence of Fantasy and buying Bisu had nothing to do with that. At least this thread is making CJ fanboys look better.
*gag* *cough* *cough*. Oh, you're serious. I see, better, not good.
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On August 08 2009 07:36 Roffles wrote:
Fantasy vs Effort - Fantasy just destroyed Jaedong, the best zerg right now. Effort failed vs Iris. T1 1-0 CJ
Yes, because Iris took advantage in a Bo5 after EffOrt had just carried his team through a playoff match (when Terrans tend to do better in intra-team matches anyways), he obviously sucks.
Flawless logic.
EDIT: For the record, I don't care if CJ would've been "the better" choice here, because CJ lost, so it doesn't matter. But for fucks sake, that was stupid. Everyone is started to look retarded arguing this shit.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 08 2009 09:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 09:38 Jibba wrote:On August 08 2009 04:29 Railz wrote:On August 08 2009 04:09 Breavman wrote:
Proleage is just Proleage, no matter how hyped it is.
When people look back at the Starcraft greats in the future, they will remember the OSL and MSL winners. SKT T1 have their place in history as a proud unbroken line of underperformers and chokers. From Boxer (second half of his career) to Midas, to Best, to Bisu (will never win OSL), to Fantasy. The one exception is oov, but he on the other hand is a quitter who left the game when it got too tough.
God damn it I want them to lose in super ace. Oh I see, you're an idiot. Not sure how I almost missed that one. PL has the biggest audience and event comparable to the OSL. SKT was king of the pro-leagues for a long time. It was boxer and oovs simultaneous lack of activity that lead to the downfall of skt for a short period; yet notice how on boxers return from the army, SKT went on a tear. Yeah, the emergence of Fantasy and buying Bisu had nothing to do with that. At least this thread is making CJ fanboys look better. *gag* *cough* *cough*. Oh, you're serious. I see, better, not good.
Yeah, because SKT has the biggest (cess)pool of fans, by comparison CJ isn't so bad. And for the record, not all of us complained about the format or Oz's win. I'm definitely rooting for them now.
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God the CJ fanboys are really crybabys...
I hope for a 4-3 or something like that for SKT or maybe for OZ and then SKT winning the super Ace.
I dont want to see just 4 games of 20min and comercials of 1hour >.<
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EPT
