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[GOM] Ro16, Day 4 - Page 21

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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boredcouch
Profile Joined May 2008
United States110 Posts
June 28 2009 10:50 GMT
#401
I'd like to say that if you are making mistakes and your opponent exploits them, then you are getting outplayed. That is all.
starcraft is the greatest game ever
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 10:51:51
June 28 2009 10:51 GMT
#402
On June 28 2009 19:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:48 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.

I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.


If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?


It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.

I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(


No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
June 28 2009 10:51 GMT
#403
On June 28 2009 19:41 Rostam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:38 Malinor wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:35 iLoveKT wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:34 Malinor wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:32 samachking wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote:
This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs


Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.


Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.

what makes you say violet played horrible in the 2nd game?


I dislike greedy play. 1 cannon without scouting information is just bad in my opinion.

I really got confused over the Violet hype the last weeks on these forums, people comparing him to Bisu and stuff. Way to go.


Should I start linking games where Bisu gets owned by early speedlings?

Mistakes happen, acting like those games suddenly prove all of Violet's other wins mean nothing is ridiculous.

Hmm Bisu has been quite good at nullifying speedlings in his base lately with some superb probe micro.... I think there was one game where like 6-8 speedlings got in but they didn't really do any damage due to Bisu's excellent defense
Writerptrk
5unrise
Profile Joined May 2009
New Zealand646 Posts
June 28 2009 10:53 GMT
#404
On June 28 2009 19:51 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:48 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.

I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.


If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?


It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.

I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(


No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?


yeah if he is confident he can take effort on and hold his own in a standard macro fashion why would he take these risks?
Magic84
Profile Joined October 2008
Russian Federation1381 Posts
June 28 2009 10:54 GMT
#405
On June 28 2009 19:49 Bifur wrote:
Golden Age of Zergs

There are really like just 3 zergs that do great, you need more for golden age i think.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
June 28 2009 10:56 GMT
#406
On June 28 2009 19:51 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:48 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.

I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.


If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?


It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.

I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(


No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?


First of all, he cheesed on game 1 for change of pace, as he plays straight up most of the games he plays + Gods Garden is REALLY bad for P, if you take out Much's inflated wins vs shit tier Zergs the map ends up to be 23-7 which is not good. And game 2 is not THAT greedy, lots of protoss build 1 canon at nat, including Bisu himself,stork, and jangbi, and Violet made no mistakes with that as his probe saw a lair and only saw 6 lings< Effort started pumping lings after he killed the probe, so it was a sneaky all in. Violet was simply reacting to what he saw and what he saw was just standard play by effort untill that point.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
June 28 2009 10:56 GMT
#407
It's more like a Golden Age of Jaedong. :p
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:03:49
June 28 2009 10:58 GMT
#408
On June 28 2009 19:51 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:48 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.

I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.


If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?


It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.

I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(


No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?


I just said he proxied because it Garden of God -- the map is a deathtrap for P considering how dominant Zerg mid/mid-late game is.

HBR is supposed to be kind of hard to runby given the choke and decent sim city, and honestly he probably would've been fine losing his gas with that build. He wasn't even that greedy -- he just didn't know how many lings Effort had and got trounced by moving out of place.


Oh well, it's kind of bittersweet anyhow. I'm also a Jaedong fan and it's vindicating that he's got a Bo3 against Jaedong next time.

Flash is still gonna win the whole thing though. :3 Calling it now, GOM's gonna have a cycle. Flash wins invitational, Jaedong wins season 1, Bisu wins season 2, Flash wins season 3.

Guess who's gonna win season four, Jaedong fans? 8)
Remember Violet.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:04:06
June 28 2009 11:03 GMT
#409
I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:04:51
June 28 2009 11:04 GMT
#410
On June 28 2009 19:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:51 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:48 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.

I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.


If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?


It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.

I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(


No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?


Flash is still gonna win the whole thing though. :3 Calling it now, GOM's gonna have a cycle. Flash wins invitational, Jaedong wins season 1, Bisu wins season 2, Flash wins season 3.

Guess who's gonna win season four, Jaedong fans? 8)

Idra?
+ Show Spoiler +
Sea.Really?
ModeratorGood content always wins.
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:06:50
June 28 2009 11:04 GMT
#411
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote:
I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p


Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.

Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?

The extra cannon wasn't necessary with the info he had. Telling him to make another cannon when all he's seen are initial lings is telling him to make cost efficiency mistakes. That's the same sim city you've seen everytime a protoss wins standard on HBR. Saying Violet was bad for that is saying Bisu was bad when he beat Jaedong on the map -- he isn't.

Ling rushes happen sometime.
Remember Violet.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
June 28 2009 11:06 GMT
#412
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.

Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?


Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
June 28 2009 11:06 GMT
#413
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote:
I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p


You know his sair was almost done when the push came out yeah? Noone sends out a 2nd scout when your stargate is done -__-.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
June 28 2009 11:06 GMT
#414

Guess who's gonna win season four, Jaedong fans? 8)



David Kim
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
June 28 2009 11:07 GMT
#415
On June 28 2009 20:06 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.

Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?


Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.


Second best zerg should be able to find one? That's a dumb argument.
Remember Violet.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
June 28 2009 11:10 GMT
#416
On June 28 2009 20:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 20:06 SuperArc wrote:
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.

Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?


Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.


Second best zerg should be able to find one? That's a dumb argument.


True, lol. Next time, just make more cannons
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:24:38
June 28 2009 11:22 GMT
#417
On June 28 2009 20:06 samachking wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote:
I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p


You know his sair was almost done when the push came out yeah? Noone sends out a 2nd scout when your stargate is done -__-.

Samachking...you're clueless ok?

It's completely standard to send out a second probe after your first one dies. It's even better to have a second one hidden after your first one dies so you can see even more(read: Sent out BEFORE the first one dies in anticipation of the first one dying). Violet played greedy and had placement mistakes that effort perfectly exploited. The exploitation of mistakes is out playing someone pure and simple.

Violet thought he was safe because he had his zealots in position and he WAS. Until effort saw the cannon placement and FORCED him to move his zealots out of position with a small number of lings. When the zealots were out of position effort showed the rest of lings and won...

Effort completely outplayed him in both games. There's no denying this. Violet should've been good enough to reason that there was a huge window that could've been used to make speedlings(and there was). He should've been good enough to realize his cannon placement wouldn't cover his gas...he wasn't, so effort made him pay like a really good zerg should.

Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-28 11:26:32
June 28 2009 11:25 GMT
#418
On June 28 2009 19:40 iLoveKT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2009 19:36 raga4ka wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:31 Orbifold wrote:
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote:
This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs


No it didn't.


Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .

No it didnt. did you watch the games? Jaedong and Effort didnt beat him because they outplayed him. They beat him because of violets mistake.

Watch jaedong vs much. That is an example of beating the crap out of him. violet vs effort/jd wasnt.

Define the word "outplayed"?
Go ahead...
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Remure
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6 Posts
June 28 2009 11:51 GMT
#419
I'm looking forward to Jaedong v Effort.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
June 28 2009 11:55 GMT
#420
On June 28 2009 20:51 Remure wrote:
I'm looking forward to Jaedong v Effort.


Yeah, me too. Especially the "How will Jaedong rape this time" will be a fun part of the series.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
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