On June 28 2009 16:03 UGC4 wrote: day/time of these matches please? ty
Today, two hours from now.
Look at the upper-right area for KST time to compare with the calendar of events, which displays the time (and more info if you click on an event) of upcoming matches.
unfortunately I have to go to bed for work so I will miss the games tonight.
but I can't wait to watch these vods and see the two greatest zergs comparative play in the same matchup on the same maps. Unfortunately the results will be predictable.
If Violet stops letting early lings in, he has this. Effort's neo-sauron style is the perfect opponent for him. As long as he can make it past the early game, I can't see even Effort beating him... but if anyone is capable of beating violet in late game zvp, it's probably Effort. Definitely one of the series I'm most excited about. Much v Jaedong, on the other hand, is almost beyond predictable. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but it's seriously unlikely.
The korean music videos they have on before SC on gom always make me laugh with total hilarity - korean R&B, korean rap, it's always something that just makes no sense at all.
On June 28 2009 17:52 Nevuk wrote: The korean music videos they have on before SC on gom always make me laugh with total hilarity - korean R&B, korean rap, it's always something that just makes no sense at all.
On June 28 2009 17:54 Eben wrote: I don't know why, but the music videos sound like spanish to me.
Wow, have you ever listened to spanish music? There are no rolled r's in korean music... I love listening to spanish music mostly for the R's, and it's one of the reasons why Frances the Mute is my favorite mars volta album. Also, spanish when sung is a lot more complex than most of the korean I'm hearing (does korean have tripthongs?)
I don't mind the massive plugging. It's a great tournament, especially for us foreigners, and that they're getting so much support from these organizations, they definitely deserve the advertising.
On June 28 2009 18:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats are ever so slightly off. 9.9 micro sounds like he doesn't have quite the best micro in the world, which is pretty wrong. >:[
you realize that these stats are just pure BS right
On June 28 2009 18:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats are ever so slightly off. 9.9 micro sounds like he doesn't have quite the best micro in the world, which is pretty wrong. >:[
you realize that these stats are just pure BS right
These are voted by fans.
Of course there are going to be people who dont like jaedong voting 1.
Plus, no one can be perfect at anything in SC, you can ALWAYS be better, there is ALWAYS more you can do (keep in mind there is no limit on how many things you can do at once, 'perfect' would be better than a computer could multitask... which is humanly impossible)
On June 28 2009 18:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats are ever so slightly off. 9.9 micro sounds like he doesn't have quite the best micro in the world, which is pretty wrong. >:[
It's not wrong to say that... Leta probably has better wraith micro, Bisu better dark templar micro, Nada vultures, and Effort maybe lings. Savior used to have better drone micro. Sure, not his race for the most part, but it's fair to say that other people are better at microing certain things. I think when people complain about Bisu rating him a 5/10 on defense, they forget that Bisu gave him several 10/10's in things like micro and attack, while JD gave bisu no 10/10s.
On June 28 2009 18:39 Orbifold wrote: This is the worst macro I have ever seen in a pro game.
Yeah.... Baby has better macro, and that's crazy. Actually, an old, old OLD Boxer game (the one where he clones ghosts + lockdowns bc's and kills them with wraiths) had worse, with 5000 mins + gas.
On June 28 2009 18:47 lazz wrote: wow that game seriously looked like it was thrown, much was sitting at 2k minerals at one point early in the game... wtf
that was after he canceled nexus, pylon and three cannons
I think that Jaedong is going to drop out of MSL cus the Maps are hard for a Z.. and he is aiming for the OSL Golden Mouse... so, focus only on OSL/GOM... and WCG and Blizzcon and going to win all cus he is a beast =P.
I just can't believe how easy JD makes it look... It actually felt as if these 2 games were bad practice for JD, needs more of a challenge to keep his skill up there :-)
Not to take anything away from Jaedong, he played perfectly... but the main feature of that game was terrible terrible terrible terrible play from Much. He had over 1500 mins or SEVERAL MINUTES before he even tried to get a 3rd. He moved out to take his third with 1 zealot and 2 goons. What the hell happened to him?
On June 28 2009 18:39 APurpleCow wrote: much at 81 minerals !!
Stupid Protoss...
"lol macro is hard let me throw up 20 gateways"
fuck you
What's your problem with Protosses? Terran throws down factories. Zerg throws down hatchery. Protoss throws down Gateway.
Zerg can't just throw down more hatcheries. Zerg has to get 5 hatcheries and then begin massing or they get run over.
All I'm asking just what you have against Protoss. You insulted and sounded pretty pissed at the race.
DTs storm drops proxy 2 gate DTs blocking hatcheries with probe/pylon DTs reavers reavers in shuttles DTs in shuttles DTs
fuck you
That's true of toss as well. Whoever makes 3 + gateways before their first zealot?
Yea but Zerg never really has an opportunity to throw down more hatcheries unless they're taking another base while Toss can just be like, "Oh, I'm floating? gateways."
On June 28 2009 18:47 lazz wrote: wow that game seriously looked like it was thrown, much was sitting at 2k minerals at one point early in the game... wtf
that was after he canceled nexus, pylon and three cannons
yes of course, but why would much bank so much on such a nooby move? of course jd would detect the cannon rush at muchs 3rd and shut it down. i just dont understand why such an experienced sc player like much make a move like that. ughh. it was so uncharacteristic of him.
That's true of toss as well. Whoever makes 3 + gateways before their first zealot?
Yea but Zerg never really has an opportunity to throw down more hatcheries unless they're taking another base while Toss can just be like, "Oh, I'm floating? gateways."
LOL race hate. how old are you? 12? stop shitting all over a LR thread
On June 28 2009 18:53 Itachii wrote: APurpleCow, make a blog about your stupidity and complain that P>Z in there, but dont fucking post this crap in LR thread. thanks
I made one post commentating on the game and then people questioned me so I responded. You want me to ignore the questions?
On June 28 2009 18:47 lazz wrote: wow that game seriously looked like it was thrown, much was sitting at 2k minerals at one point early in the game... wtf
that was after he canceled nexus, pylon and three cannons
yes of course, but why would much bank so much on such a nooby move? of course jd would detect the cannon rush at muchs 3rd and shut it down. i just dont understand why such an experienced sc player like much make a move like that. ughh. it was so uncharacteristic of him.
Maybe he was tired lol , and didn't want to play at max level ... He did get beat pretty badly in PL or so i read .
On June 28 2009 18:49 FranzF1 wrote: I think that Jaedong is going to drop out of MSL cus the Maps are hard for a Z.. and he is aiming for the OSL Golden Mouse... so, focus only on OSL/GOM... and WCG and Blizzcon and going to win all cus he is a beast =P.
Rapefest
Jaedong, if he drops out of the MSL, will drop out of the MSL because he has to face Leta and Movie. Once it gets to the bracket format, then it'll depend on his opponent. The following people have a decent chance of beating Jaedong in any league:
fantasy Flash Bisu
And... that's about it. There are a couple others - Kal, Leta, Hwasin - who might pull out an upset, but Jaedong (if he makes it out of MSL groups) is still probably favored to win all three leagues. Which is insane.
That's true of toss as well. Whoever makes 3 + gateways before their first zealot?
Yea but Zerg never really has an opportunity to throw down more hatcheries unless they're taking another base while Toss can just be like, "Oh, I'm floating? gateways."
Toss have to pick between teching faster and making gateways most of the time, and each cannon they make is one less gateway, when many unscoutable zerg all-ins can only be defended against with cannons. There is definitely a choice they have to sacrifice. And the faster they tech, the better they can defend against earlier all-ins, but the worse they'll mass. I can grant you that toss don't have to sacrifice a worker, but that's about it. We also don't get cracklings. edit : Also, all toss players have to deal with dts as well in pvp. They are a huge part of why that matchup is so difficult - detection is much more difficult to acquire and puts you further behind as a toss than as any other race.
On June 28 2009 18:53 Itachii wrote: APurpleCow, make a blog about your stupidity and complain that P>Z in there, but dont fucking post this crap in LR thread. thanks
I made one post commentating on the game and then people questioned me so I responded. You want me to ignore the questions?
I don't like you.
I just want to say that Starcraft is as balanced as can be. There are many things I dislike about Zergs too, but there are counters. Just don't be so BM about it. It is also agreed that Z > P in terms of MU. (Although there is a thread that says it is really balanced now).
Back onto the thread.. I'm staying up late just for Violet vs Effort!! Both of them got trounced by Jaedong not too long ago. XD
A general question about JD wins over toss (or most races for that matter);
Have you ever seen a win where the toss have looked to play good lately? I just think that the way JD plays makes people play worse - and this is a treat of a real champion.
it would be interesting to see how that game would have went if the scouting wasnt so fail... but even then he was so passive, pretty odd for an all in.
On June 28 2009 19:27 Orbifold wrote: If you think Violet has not been showing great PvZ lately you have not been keeping up with recent VODs. That last game was just dumb though.
yeah, let's not let one bad game take away what he has been doing. it happens to everyone
On June 28 2009 19:27 Itachii wrote: Violet vs Hogil was one of the best PvZs lately, hope he can play like he did in that game. Map's the same after all!
On June 28 2009 19:27 Itachii wrote: Violet vs Hogil was one of the best PvZs lately, hope he can play like he did in that game. Map's the same after all!
yes.. but hogil is not effort
I was talking about his performance - perfect defense and amazing game sense. Exactly opposite to what just happend.Damn these games sucked.
First game Violet played terrible. Second game he didn't play bad, but he got his ass kicked by a superior player's mind games. Still, he got to the Ro16, that's pretty good..
The violet vs effort 2nd game sucked but effort still made a great play there. I'm positive that wasnt his original plan. He read the build like a champ.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
No scouting, one cannon usually works against weak zergs, but good zergs know how to exploit it.
In case you didn't notice there was a big deal about Violet's probe in the zerg main for a long time. Also about the 1 canon thing, watch Jaedong vs Movie in Avalon MSL Ro32 on Heartbreak Ridge.
Violet shoulda played a lot safer in game 2, considering it was the clinch game. After his risky build in game 1, he shoulda tried to bring his best..
So unfortunate when Protoss's try to get away w/ building 1 cannon for defense while FE'ing. Most of the time Zergs will react in such a manner.. You have to be like, constant and perfect w/ zealot macro throughout the entire game if u want to be safe from a run-in or early game mass ling.
Seen the same in Violet v Jaedong @ Proleague. =[ Build 2 cannons guys! 2 cannons is still not a guarantee, but it's better than 1!!
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.
Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.
Honestly Violet made only 2 mistakes those 2 series, not attacking with the zeals from the start, and in game 2 not building that 2nd canon and sending out a 2nd probe scout. Effort did a good job abusing it, but it doesnt say anything about the merit of violet's pvz.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.
Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.
Honestly Violet made only 2 mistakes those 2 series, not attacking with the zeals from the start, and in game 2 not building that 2nd canon and sending out a 2nd probe scout. Effort did a good job abusing it, but it doesnt say anything about the merit of violet's pvz.
His third mistake was not playing 100% safe when hes one game down in a Bo3
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.
Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.
Honestly Violet made only 2 mistakes those 2 series, not attacking with the zeals from the start, and in game 2 not building that 2nd canon and sending out a 2nd probe scout. Effort did a good job abusing it, but it doesnt say anything about the merit of violet's pvz.
Well you deserve to lose if you don't play safer against a top level zerg seriously i went to the bathroom and when i came back the game was over .
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
I would not commend your arguement but I would love to point out that JD is 3-0 skyhigh in every game that lasted over 8 minutes, all the games are rapes btw.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
No it didnt. did you watch the games? Jaedong and Effort didnt beat him because they outplayed him. They beat him because of violets mistake.
Watch jaedong vs much. That is an example of beating the crap out of him. violet vs effort/jd wasnt.
Every single mistake that Violet makes is going to be picked up on and amplified against zergs like JD and Effort. It will be same story if he fought other good zvp'ers like July.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
Yeah, Effort was on three hatches pumping drones and zerglings, I dont see the cheese.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
No it didnt. did you watch the games? Jaedong and Effort didnt beat him because they outplayed him. They beat him because of violets mistake.
Watch jaedong vs much. That is an example of beating the crap out of him. violet vs effort/jd wasnt.
Every single mistake that Violet makes is going to be picked up on and amplified against zergs like JD and Effort. It will be same story if he fought other good zvp'ers like July.
yeah that is my point. he made mistakes thats why he lost. he didnt get outplayed.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
Not the same at all. A zerg has to skip a ton of drone production early on to get that many speedlings, his economy would've been set back massively if it had failed. If the point was only to force him to build more cannons he wouldn't try to hide his ling count.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
I don't know what you guys are trying to argue here. Violet lost 3 vZ games in arow. Against JD because of bad play, against EffOrt because of a bad executed cheese and the second game because of really greedy play.
Of course the conclusion is not, that he sucks like Rock and does not have stand a chance against the best. But it shows that he is just by far not as good as you make him out to be. Losing 3 games like this is just bad and he stil has along way to go.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
No it didn't.
Well it did . Both Jaedong and Effort bit the crap out of him .
Really? Getting cheesed once and failing a cheese means you can't beat that opponent ever? I guess Jaedong has no chance against Skyhigh then.
But Effort didn't cheese, the ling run-by isn't supposed to be an all-in, it won the game by itself because of poor foresight of an opponent I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them. Terrans forces zergs to make sunkens, zerg force protoss to make cannons, same logic
The build is 3hat lair into 3hatling while adding 4th hatch and spire and I think it was first used by Savior vs Bisu on Neo Harmony, Lux used it on Neo Harmony in MSL finals too, but it pretty much has to do damage otherwise you are way behind.
Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.
Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.
what makes you say violet played horrible in the 2nd game?
I dislike greedy play. 1 cannon without scouting information is just bad in my opinion.
I really got confused over the Violet hype the last weeks on these forums, people comparing him to Bisu and stuff. Way to go.
Should I start linking games where Bisu gets owned by early speedlings?
Mistakes happen, acting like those games suddenly prove all of Violet's other wins mean nothing is ridiculous.
I also facepalm when Bisu does it. I also facepalm when JD thinks it is a good idea to put his 5th hatchery at a fourth base (like on Medusa against Tempest last season).
You really have no point here. Violet lost 3 really bad PvZs in a row and there is noone to blame. He is good, who doubts that, but he is not nearly on the same level as the top players just yet.
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
On June 28 2009 19:30 SuperArc wrote: This series showed that Violet has no chance against good zergs
Wtf are you saying? 2 cheese games means Violet sucks PvZ? Let the games last over 10 min then talk.
Well, if Violet did not play horrible, then the game could have lasted longer than 10 minutes.
what makes you say violet played horrible in the 2nd game?
I dislike greedy play. 1 cannon without scouting information is just bad in my opinion.
I really got confused over the Violet hype the last weeks on these forums, people comparing him to Bisu and stuff. Way to go.
Should I start linking games where Bisu gets owned by early speedlings?
Mistakes happen, acting like those games suddenly prove all of Violet's other wins mean nothing is ridiculous.
Hmm Bisu has been quite good at nullifying speedlings in his base lately with some superb probe micro.... I think there was one game where like 6-8 speedlings got in but they didn't really do any damage due to Bisu's excellent defense
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
yeah if he is confident he can take effort on and hold his own in a standard macro fashion why would he take these risks?
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
First of all, he cheesed on game 1 for change of pace, as he plays straight up most of the games he plays + Gods Garden is REALLY bad for P, if you take out Much's inflated wins vs shit tier Zergs the map ends up to be 23-7 which is not good. And game 2 is not THAT greedy, lots of protoss build 1 canon at nat, including Bisu himself,stork, and jangbi, and Violet made no mistakes with that as his probe saw a lair and only saw 6 lings< Effort started pumping lings after he killed the probe, so it was a sneaky all in. Violet was simply reacting to what he saw and what he saw was just standard play by effort untill that point.
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
I just said he proxied because it Garden of God -- the map is a deathtrap for P considering how dominant Zerg mid/mid-late game is.
HBR is supposed to be kind of hard to runby given the choke and decent sim city, and honestly he probably would've been fine losing his gas with that build. He wasn't even that greedy -- he just didn't know how many lings Effort had and got trounced by moving out of place.
Oh well, it's kind of bittersweet anyhow. I'm also a Jaedong fan and it's vindicating that he's got a Bo3 against Jaedong next time.
Flash is still gonna win the whole thing though. :3 Calling it now, GOM's gonna have a cycle. Flash wins invitational, Jaedong wins season 1, Bisu wins season 2, Flash wins season 3.
Guess who's gonna win season four, Jaedong fans? 8)
I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p
On June 28 2009 19:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Worst games possible for Violet. Goes into a super Z favored map and proxies because of it, messes up, loses. Cuts one too many a corner on HBR and gets killed via runby. Nowadays he's second only to Bisu when he gets going in the midgame, but neither game came close to getting that far.
I think he's got it in him to take down top level zergs, but these games were just not beneficial to how he plays.
If his midgame is so good, it makes us wonder why he doesn't decide to get to midgame?
It's like you completely ignored my first three sentences.
I know you're a CJ fan and you're happy that Effort won, but condescension is a pretty mean path to take in the face of a Violet fan. =(
No, not at all. All I am asking is why should a midgame level player decide to cheese? Or play greedy and risky?
Flash is still gonna win the whole thing though. :3 Calling it now, GOM's gonna have a cycle. Flash wins invitational, Jaedong wins season 1, Bisu wins season 2, Flash wins season 3.
Guess who's gonna win season four, Jaedong fans? 8)
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote: I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p
Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.
Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?
The extra cannon wasn't necessary with the info he had. Telling him to make another cannon when all he's seen are initial lings is telling him to make cost efficiency mistakes. That's the same sim city you've seen everytime a protoss wins standard on HBR. Saying Violet was bad for that is saying Bisu was bad when he beat Jaedong on the map -- he isn't.
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.
Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?
Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote: I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p
You know his sair was almost done when the push came out yeah? Noone sends out a 2nd scout when your stargate is done -__-.
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.
Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?
Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.
Second best zerg should be able to find one? That's a dumb argument.
On June 28 2009 20:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Skipping a 2nd scout? He wasn't at the time to get a second scout. You scout again when you can push your lots out past the initial zergling contain so your probe doesn't die like a bitch -- or you scout with a sair.
Who scouts at that point with 8 speed lings light containing?
Bisu :p The 2nd best protoss should be able to hide a probe.
Second best zerg should be able to find one? That's a dumb argument.
On June 28 2009 20:03 SuperArc wrote: I like how you are saying he isn't that greedy, skipping a 2nd scout and refusing to make more than one cannon isn't greedy? What is it then. A bit greedy? :p
You know his sair was almost done when the push came out yeah? Noone sends out a 2nd scout when your stargate is done -__-.
Samachking...you're clueless ok?
It's completely standard to send out a second probe after your first one dies. It's even better to have a second one hidden after your first one dies so you can see even more(read: Sent out BEFORE the first one dies in anticipation of the first one dying). Violet played greedy and had placement mistakes that effort perfectly exploited. The exploitation of mistakes is out playing someone pure and simple.
Violet thought he was safe because he had his zealots in position and he WAS. Until effort saw the cannon placement and FORCED him to move his zealots out of position with a small number of lings. When the zealots were out of position effort showed the rest of lings and won...
Effort completely outplayed him in both games. There's no denying this. Violet should've been good enough to reason that there was a huge window that could've been used to make speedlings(and there was). He should've been good enough to realize his cannon placement wouldn't cover his gas...he wasn't, so effort made him pay like a really good zerg should.
The cannon did cover the gateway -- it didn't cover the gas. It's the exact same sim city every protoss uses, you're just supposed to cover your gas with your second cannon, but you don't get your second cannon if there aren't enough early lings, etc. Violet got played by effort's fake out gas attack, plain and simple.
EffOrt was so agressive.... Violet didn;t manage to push the lings which coming on the natural. But... I dont understand anyway why he didnt manage to protect the natural ? In general, lings are totally stopped by canons no?
On June 28 2009 21:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: The cannon did cover the gateway -- it didn't cover the gas. It's the exact same sim city every protoss uses, you're just supposed to cover your gas with your second cannon, but you don't get your second cannon if there aren't enough early lings, etc. Violet got played by effort's fake out gas attack, plain and simple.
Yeah and that was the difference in that two games, in the first one Violiet cheesed hoping that Effort will play hatchery at his natural (not behind), but he was unlucky, while the second game Effort made unorthodox attack when he was sure that the situation favors it.
On June 28 2009 21:57 GoSu wrote: EffOrt was so agressive.... Violet didn;t manage to push the lings which coming on the natural. But... I dont understand anyway why he didnt manage to protect the natural ? In general, lings are totally stopped by canons no?
not really..I haven't seen the games but usually cannons do stop lings but if the lings get too many, they'll just rape the cannons hard..
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
No way. Several carefully planned cheesy plays by terran (any terran) are way more of a threat than anything Effort or any other zerg can bring to JD.
I'm getting tired of always having to place my Protoss-faith in Bisu, Violet showed some promise but it seems Bisu is (and has been) the only protoss who can sort of reliably win all match-ups, and even he's not looking too hot right now...
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
You're kidding, right? Beating JD in ZvZ in a BoX is impossible, even statistically Effort has 0% chance to beat him!!
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
You're kidding, right? Beating JD in ZvZ in a BoX is impossible, even statistically Effort has 0% chance to beat him!!
however unlikely, it certainly is possible for Effort to pull an upset. Despite the fact that effort has a losing record against JD, he is 66% vs. Zerg and is certainly a formidable opponent. I think Jaedong has a much higher chance of pulling the victory, but if Effort wins the series I wouldn't exactly be shocked...
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
You're kidding, right? Beating JD in ZvZ in a BoX is impossible, even statistically Effort has 0% chance to beat him!!
however unlikely, it certainly is possible for Effort to pull an upset. Despite the fact that effort has a losing record against JD, he is 66% vs. Zerg and is certainly a formidable opponent. I think Jaedong has a much higher chance of pulling the victory, but if Effort wins the series I wouldn't exactly be shocked...
keep in mind jaedong hast both beat and lost to effort in the last month, and efforts recent record over his last 40 games is completely out of this world.
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
You're kidding, right? Beating JD in ZvZ in a BoX is impossible, even statistically Effort has 0% chance to beat him!!
however unlikely, it certainly is possible for Effort to pull an upset. Despite the fact that effort has a losing record against JD, he is 66% vs. Zerg and is certainly a formidable opponent. I think Jaedong has a much higher chance of pulling the victory, but if Effort wins the series I wouldn't exactly be shocked...
Considering the fact that JD is better at ZvZ than any other progamer has been at any other matchup I would say him getting beat in a ZvZ BoX series would be a pretty fucking big deal.
Jaedong has also lost to Effort, earlier this month in the Oz v. CJ match. He beat Skyhigh in the ACE though. It'll be iffy. I definitely think Effort has more of a chance to knock out Jaedong than Skyhigh does. Skyhigh is an extremely inconsistent player.
No way. Several carefully planned cheesy plays by terran (any terran) are way more of a threat than anything Effort or any other zerg can bring to JD.
Watch JD in the GOM round of 32, he's obviously immune to cheesing. Like I said, Skyhigh is too inconsistent to have a chance against Jaedong. Effort is shaping up to be the next best Zerg out there - if anyone can beat JD, it's him.
Great match ups, but disappointing games =/ Rape by Jaedong and Violet playing kind of bad.
Ahem.....Klaz quote. "IT IS LIKE SUN TZU SAYS. When you are few appear many and when you are many appear few and EFFORT APPEARED FEW WITH HIS MANY ZERGLINGS".
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Tadzio/GOMS3/aiclassic3w.png)
Jaedong vs 
Much
) I can't wait for tonight's match ups.![[image loading]](http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8092/xlbet3.png)
. Should be good.
I'm pretty sure effort would still be fine even if his lings were stopped by cannons and he loses most of them, and of course he would have easily retreated them.
