EPT
[GOM] Ro32, Day 4 - Page 36
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imDerek
United States1944 Posts
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:08 0cz3c wrote: I would contend that it's not the maps that are imbalanced so much as the competition being better. Look at Protoss right now. Look at Zerg and Terran right now. Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Best, Free, Kal. Jaedong, Luxury, July (?) Flash, forGG(?), fantasy (?) Protoss are just plain better than their competition now. They're more creative and more dominant, and this results in the middle of the pack improving as well (as they incorporate these creative strategies). I'm a protoss myself and I admit that the majority of the maps are easier against zerg now. But...are you serious? Really? Look at Neo Requiem. Just look at its stats. Look at its stats in 2008 and look at its stats before that. Protoss have just gotten much better than zerg. I don't mean the race. I mean the top players. The fact of the matter is that maps have not allowed Protoss to be this dominant, although they've certainly helped; rather, it has been the skill of the protoss progamers themselves that has allowed them to rise to such a level. I agree. It's not that the maps are imbalanced, causing good zergs to lose when they shouldn't, it's that most of the zergs just suck. Besides Jaedong, there's just not any zergs that are very good at this game right now. You could make an argument for savior and maybe one or two others, but they aren't anywhere near jaedong's level. In contrast, protoss has bisu and stork and best and free now winning everything and terran has fantasy, fbh, and a few others. But even they just don't look as good as the protoss. If you look at the top elo rankings, every protoss on the top deserves to be there. | ||
disciple
9071 Posts
On December 01 2008 02:53 Atrioc wrote: fuck this season man, and im not just talking about GOM ZvP is just a depressing joke lately and not a single map in this tournament has a positive win ratio for Z in it. GOM TV CLASSIC Destination: 39% vs Protoss Medusa: 45% vs Protoss Neo Requiem: 48% vs Protoss Not to mention: CLUB DAY MSL (The one that had a 4 Protoss Semi-Final) Athena II: 0% vs Protoss Byzantium II: 0% vs Protoss Destination: 39% vs Protoss Medusa: 45% vs Protoss PROLEAGUE: Colosseum II: 38% vs Protoss Chupung-Ryeong: 41% vs Protoss Proleague has two maps with slightly above 50% win for Zerg:: Rush Hour 3 (which is just balanced) and Andromeda. The rest all favor Protoss, and the proleague season overall has a 47% win rate for Zerg vs Protoss. *edit* ALSO WORTH NOTING: Protoss have an even easier time vs Terran Neo Requiem: 70% win PvT Medusa: 73% win PvT Destination: 60% win PvT Holy shit those numbers are crazy. While ZvT remains favoring Terran, meaning Z has absolutely no easy matchups, Protoss has basically a freewin vs Terran on some of these maps. yeah lets blame the maps again... or maybe the tosses are just that good, maybe 6 from the current top players are tosses | ||
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Onisparda
Canada516 Posts
 Jaedong vs  free 2... | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:29 disciple wrote: yeah lets blame the maps again... or maybe the tosses are just that good, maybe 6 from the current top players are tosses Or maybe these Tosses are only that good *because* the current maps favor them. Obviously there's no real answer so this argument can go back and forth for all eternity, but you can look at the stats and realize that Ps are heavily favored at the moment in both matchups (not counting mirror) on most maps, and something should probably be done about that. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
The MSL prelim had Destination(39%), Medusa(45%), and Coliseum 2(38%) as its maps. Out of the 24 qualified, 14 were zergs. The simple truth is that the best players today are tosses. End of story. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20667 Posts
Zealots! Storms! TRUE MAN. Even that epic fail 2 gate in game 2 was very Reach. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:48 baubo wrote: To those blaming everything on the maps: The MSL prelim had Destination(39%), Medusa(45%), and Coliseum 2(38%) as its maps. Out of the 24 qualified, 14 were zergs. The simple truth is that the best players today are tosses. End of story. There is a correlation between the maps and the tosses, it's impossible to say whether it;s the coinencidental influx of good toss players or if it's the map imbalance. Toss do have it easier than other races with no hard matchup, and many players have used this to do better. However, the mark of a great player is one that succeeds against imbalanced maps. | ||
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HajnaL
France44 Posts
It is so ironic to see twice the same loss to firebathero, having the same effect on sAviOr first and now Jaedong. These two players are so special and they look-alike in their fury for win. See how Jaedong looked pissed in his matchup against Kwanro 3 days after his loss and then compare to sAviOr. No protoss or terran has experienced the fall that sAviOr has, and none of them could have won a 3-0 rape against Flash just after being schooled by ForGG. Jaedong and sAviOr are destined to be bonjwas or to die in the ashes. sAviOr is playing FBH tomorrow, let's see if he will rise again ! | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On December 01 2008 04:50 Avidkeystamper wrote: There is a correlation between the maps and the tosses, it's impossible to say whether it;s the coinencidental influx of good toss players or if it's the map imbalance. Toss do have it easier than other races with no hard matchup, and many players have used this to do better. However, the mark of a great player is one that succeeds against imbalanced maps. The mark of a great player is to know the maps and play it to the advantage of his race. Hoejja showed great map understanding today and outplayed Much because of it. Unless a map is ridiculously unbalanced, a player of each race should find ways to exploit the map in his favor. | ||
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GrimAngel
United States416 Posts
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Nitan
United States3401 Posts
On December 01 2008 02:47 Frits wrote: lol flash's TvZ is insane there's no way he's losing to any zerg that isn't Jaedong. What about Zero? Did you see Flash's Bo3 against GGPlay? It's pretty funny when Jaedong loses. And damn it Midas. Damn it. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Only zergs left are hoejja and effort, both which are going to be easily crushed by flash's solid play. | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
On December 01 2008 05:16 Avidkeystamper wrote: There is just something about this tournament and upsets, maybe it's format? Part of it is undoubtedly the format, though I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's more "open" than the MSL/OSL where it's far easier to qualify as a new player rather than heavily favoring established players. It's also longer than the other leagues because of this and players have to face more rounds and more challenges to get to the top. There are upsets in every league. The GSL just allows more opportunities for it to happen, I think. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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