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United States1865 Posts
fuck this season man, and im not just talking about GOM
ZvP is just a depressing joke lately and not a single map in this tournament has a positive win ratio for Z in it.
GOM TV CLASSIC
Destination: 39% vs Protoss
Medusa: 45% vs Protoss
Neo Requiem: 48% vs Protoss
Not to mention:
CLUB DAY MSL (The one that had a 4 Protoss Semi-Final)
Athena II: 0% vs Protoss
Byzantium II: 0% vs Protoss
Destination: 39% vs Protoss
Medusa: 45% vs Protoss
PROLEAGUE:
Colosseum II: 38% vs Protoss
Chupung-Ryeong: 41% vs Protoss
Proleague has two maps with slightly above 50% win for Zerg:: Rush Hour 3 (which is just balanced) and Andromeda. The rest all favor Protoss, and the proleague season overall has a 47% win rate for Zerg vs Protoss.
*edit*
ALSO WORTH NOTING: Protoss have an even easier time vs Terran
Neo Requiem: 70% win PvT
Medusa: 73% win PvT
Destination: 60% win PvT
Holy shit those numbers are crazy. While ZvT remains favoring Terran, meaning Z has absolutely no easy matchups, Protoss has basically a freewin vs Terran on some of these maps.
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Lol, with the Bisu build+variations, PvZ and TvZ are both slightly favored against Zerg.
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I'm not sure if you can base your statistics on something that has a 12% deviation as the biggest outlier with not a whole lot of games played on most maps.
You need a valid standard deviation first.
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On December 01 2008 02:49 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 02:47 Frits wrote:
lol flash's TvZ is insane there's no way he's losing to any zerg that isn't Jaedong. Flash and Stork always had a bad history with GGplay. THey even said that the one player they would never want to meet is GGplay. I would agree that Flash has a bad history against GGplay, and he has a hard time against *top* zvt players, so yeah. But flash's history 4-5 against GGplay, is a huge difference between storks history, 1-5. I think Flash may be nervous against GGplay, but its not to the extent where hes phyced out, like Stork might be. Not a Stork-Sea, or Savior-Bisu type thing, but more of a Stork-Iris, a rivalry.
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United States1865 Posts
On December 01 2008 03:01 Frits wrote:
I'm not sure if you can base your statistics on something that has a 12% deviation as the biggest outlier with not a whole lot of games played on most maps.
You need a valid standard deviation first.
I'm a little bit frustrated when people use this argument, becuase we both know these maps will never get the hundreds of plays needed to get a truly accurate measurement before its on to the next season and new maps.
The most you can do is look at the general trend -- which is that every single map has more Protoss winners than Zerg, that the overall win ratio in Proleauge for that matchup is favorable to Protoss (which has quite a large number of games) and the (yes, subjective) evidence that extremely strong zerg players with numerous medals such as Jaedong are losing to a guy that has had 4 televised ZvP in his entire career, half of which he lost.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
PS: I TOLD YOU BITCHES JAEDONG'S NICKNAME WAS THE TYRANT
HAHAHAHA
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On December 01 2008 03:12 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 03:01 Frits wrote:
I'm not sure if you can base your statistics on something that has a 12% deviation as the biggest outlier with not a whole lot of games played on most maps.
You need a valid standard deviation first. I'm a little bit frustrated when people use this argument, becuase we both know these maps will never get the hundreds of plays needed to get a truly accurate measurement before its on to the next season and new maps. The most you can do is look at the general trend -- which is that every single map has more Protoss winners than Zerg, that the overall win ratio in Proleauge for that matchup is favorable to Protoss (which has quite a large number of games) and the (yes, subjective) evidence that extremely strong zerg players with numerous medals such as Jaedong are losing to a guy that has had 4 televised ZvP in his entire career, half of which he lost.
Yeah but the general trend isn't significant so it might as well be coincidence.
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jaedong???? that was not supposed to happen man 
noooooo many p's once again?
cmon flash i believe in you man.
ps. i like these maps but statistically TvP is so hard
stork/flash all the way
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United States1865 Posts
On December 01 2008 03:27 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 03:12 Atrioc wrote:On December 01 2008 03:01 Frits wrote:
I'm not sure if you can base your statistics on something that has a 12% deviation as the biggest outlier with not a whole lot of games played on most maps.
You need a valid standard deviation first. I'm a little bit frustrated when people use this argument, becuase we both know these maps will never get the hundreds of plays needed to get a truly accurate measurement before its on to the next season and new maps. The most you can do is look at the general trend -- which is that every single map has more Protoss winners than Zerg, that the overall win ratio in Proleauge for that matchup is favorable to Protoss (which has quite a large number of games) and the (yes, subjective) evidence that extremely strong zerg players with numerous medals such as Jaedong are losing to a guy that has had 4 televised ZvP in his entire career, half of which he lost. Yeah but the general trend isn't significant so it might as well be coincidence.
So you think this season's maps dont favor Protoss?
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btw as good as bisu is a flash vs. bisu bo5 should be one that is favored for flash cheese or not
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On November 30 2008 23:55 Velr wrote:
who is this weird guy in the crowd? (mantle, gloves, sunglasses...)
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On December 01 2008 03:32 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 03:27 Frits wrote:On December 01 2008 03:12 Atrioc wrote:On December 01 2008 03:01 Frits wrote:
I'm not sure if you can base your statistics on something that has a 12% deviation as the biggest outlier with not a whole lot of games played on most maps.
You need a valid standard deviation first. I'm a little bit frustrated when people use this argument, becuase we both know these maps will never get the hundreds of plays needed to get a truly accurate measurement before its on to the next season and new maps. The most you can do is look at the general trend -- which is that every single map has more Protoss winners than Zerg, that the overall win ratio in Proleauge for that matchup is favorable to Protoss (which has quite a large number of games) and the (yes, subjective) evidence that extremely strong zerg players with numerous medals such as Jaedong are losing to a guy that has had 4 televised ZvP in his entire career, half of which he lost. Yeah but the general trend isn't significant so it might as well be coincidence. So you think this season's maps dont favor Protoss?
Just gonna do the GSL ones to keep it a little ontopic.
Destination: Not enough statistical evidence. 9-14 doesn't have to mean shit yet. It definately looks balanced enough to me. PvZ favored? I don't think so but maybe it is.
Medusa: Definately not enough statistical evidence to make a valid judgement on but this one definately doesn't favor PvZ. Zerg can easily get 3 bases here, the bridge expansions seem easy for protoss to defend but then again they're kinda far away from the mains and the zerg can use lurkers to go in the back. Not PvZ favored imo.
Neo Requiem: ZvP: 41-43 (48.8%) -> I think with a 1.2% deviation it's fair to assume this map is balanced with 84 games played. It looks balanced enough to me, easy enough to get a third expansion etc.
Besides upsets happen, what about Best losing to some noname? Doesn't necessarily have to be attributed to maps. I think Jaedong made a mistake not reacting to the timing pushes correctly, relying too much on his micro. Just remember how good shuttle did last season killing off good players, it happens.
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On November 30 2008 20:57 kemoryan wrote:
Jaedong is going to show him why I chose him for my proleague fantasy team.
oops :3
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Reccomended game of current day? Go watch all of them this tournament is FANTASTIC and you get at the same price english commentary and a wonderfull girl (Miss Kim!)!
http://www.gomtv.net/classics2
Out of joke, all the games i watched were really good and entertaining (i watched everything but Much vs HoeJJa[S.G] game 1, which indeed was a very good game (see OP).
Gonna watch it now! Bye!
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On December 01 2008 02:53 Atrioc wrote:
Holy shit those numbers are crazy. While ZvT remains favoring Terran, meaning Z has absolutely no easy matchups, Protoss has basically a freewin vs Terran on some of these maps.
That's what I'm thinking too. Ever since Z isn't favored over P anymore, P are dominating because of no hard matchup anymore.
Map makers could of course fix that, but it seems they like giving P an edge.
In any case, something is wrong in current SC. I can understand that P is the easiest race in the foreign "low APM" scene, but now it seems that it's also the easiest race on the pro level. And that's just ridiculous.
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On December 01 2008 03:59 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 02:53 Atrioc wrote:
Holy shit those numbers are crazy. While ZvT remains favoring Terran, meaning Z has absolutely no easy matchups, Protoss has basically a freewin vs Terran on some of these maps. That's what I'm thinking too. Ever since Z isn't favored over P anymore, P are dominating because of no hard matchup anymore. Map makers could of course fix that, but it seems they like to give P an edge. In any case, something is wrong in current SC. I can understand that P is the easiest race in the foreign "low APM" scene, but now it seems that it's also the easiest race on the pro level. And that's just ridiculous.
its not because they are "easier" is the maps more or less favor P and if u look at the P's who are in the round of 16 they are the best p's around. best stork bisu jangbi kal free etc. they deserve to make it, but the maps help a little. plus lots of upsets going on this tournament
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I would contend that it's not the maps that are imbalanced so much as the competition being better. Look at Protoss right now. Look at Zerg and Terran right now.
Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Best, Free, Kal.
Jaedong, Luxury, July (?)
Flash, forGG(?), fantasy (?)
Protoss are just plain better than their competition now. They're more creative and more dominant, and this results in the middle of the pack improving as well (as they incorporate these creative strategies).
I'm a protoss myself and I admit that the majority of the maps are easier against zerg now.
But...are you serious? Really? Look at Neo Requiem. Just look at its stats. Look at its stats in 2008 and look at its stats before that. Protoss have just gotten much better than zerg. I don't mean the race. I mean the top players. The fact of the matter is that maps have not allowed Protoss to be this dominant, although they've certainly helped; rather, it has been the skill of the protoss progamers themselves that has allowed them to rise to such a level.
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these maps arent exactly TvP friendly
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WTF? You gotta give it to them. GOM is the no.1 upset tournament. The way the brackets are and considering the players left, this looks like another protoss fest, at least the right bracket. Fuck, I can't believe Much fell 0-2.
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EPT
