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On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS.
Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game.
This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't.
And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing.
In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous.  If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless.
Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work.
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On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't?
haha...yea, agreed
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On October 08 2008 15:14 weiliem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't? haha...yea, agreed
...and owned 
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On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work.
The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game.
If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back.
If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
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On October 08 2008 19:39 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 15:14 weiliem wrote:On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't? haha...yea, agreed ...and owned
Best's PvZ isn't his best matchup either, but by far better than is ZvP probably.
I think Lecaf did a good job placing their players in a way that SKT1 couldn't do anything about it. Raid Assault 2 is a zerg map, but not as bad as people would like to believe TvZ. Lomo's TvZ is decent, and SKT1 assumed that Jaedong would try to win there. Lecaf realized this and chose to send Jaedong on Destination, which is relatively untested ZvP and Lomo against SKT1's only zerg (who happens to have one decent matchup, ZvZ). It probably won them the match.
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On October 08 2008 20:13 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work. The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game. If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back. If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
Yeah, all true (not sure about the Zerg wins within 10-15 min though).
And Z also needs luck in killing vessels, you can only scourge them if Terran makes the mistake of having his vessels too far away from the M&M (or you sacrifice units by running in and then scourging at the same time, but that's of course a bit costly). If he doesn't do that mistake (and it seems to be happening increasingly rare these days, due to better multitasking), Z will kill almost no vessels and then it's even harder.
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On October 08 2008 20:13 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work. The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game. If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back. If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
Yes, pumping SCV from both CC is much more efficient than trying to pump drones from several hatcherys while balancing ratio to pump enough fighting units to defend yourself
Its kind of retarded that Zerg needs 3 gas to even compete with Terran who only needs 1~2 bases. Its like saying, you need 3 zealots to be even with his 2 superzealots
When I play a Terran, and if he manages to kill all my lurkers mid-game (marine micro, tank splash, irradiate) I'm pretty fucked at that point. Sure, I'm producing hydras at the moment, but they still need time to morph into lurkers after they spawn. Marines on the other hand, need much less time to make, and they're ready to go once a medic or two comes out.
I kill his m&m army and he managed to make another one by the time I reach his base.
He makes 2~3 bunkers (200~300 minerals) and that lets him be safe until dark swarm comes out.
I need to make about 4 sunkens ( 700 minerals for including drone cost) to be safe from his m&m, and even then, sunkens are rendered useless if he brings tanks
Early game, I make like 30 lings and he blocks his choke with 3 scvs, and has about 9 marines behind them and he's safe, when he obviously shouldn't be due to difference in army strength.
I attack his expo, he lifts up his CC, sorry my base is untouchable
He attacks my expo, goodbye hatchery
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair
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What about PVZ?
What about the fact that if you lose shuttle + 1 or 2 reavers in early-mid game, P is in huge disadvantage. Plus, Protosses have to gues what tech is zerg going to use (muta, hydra all-in, etc.) so has to waste resources on cannons or make more archons and less ht, etc. I agree with above's signature. T>Z>P slight imbalance at pro levels (on noob levels P > all); and P = T, of course its heavily map dependant so its not easy to simplify.
Is there anyway to know complete statistics of recent years on all 3 match-ups? I think it could give us a more accurate insight about this.
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On October 09 2008 02:16 Februarys wrote:
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair
Yeah, but I guess it's really only foreigners and bad players complaining about defilers and ultras, because they all suck at multitasking so that they'll lose lots of M&M.
But on pro level, where Terrans dodge lurks and swarms like it's nothing and preserve almost all of their massive M&M force, you absolutely need these units in ZvT otherwise it would be impossible to win (because a lurk/ling army, no matter how massive, will just melt before a big upgraded Terran ball).
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On October 09 2008 16:19 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 02:16 Februarys wrote:
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair Yeah, but I guess it's really only foreigners and bad players complaining about defilers and ultras, because they all suck at multitasking so that they'll lose lots of M&M. But on pro level, where Terrans dodge lurks and swarms like it's nothing and preserve almost all of their massive M&M force, you absolutely need these units in ZvT otherwise it would be impossible to win (because a lurk/ling army, no matter how massive, will just melt before a big upgraded Terran ball).
And it's not like Terran doesn't have a certain grossly imbalanced tier 3 unit of its own.
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LOL...
Only ZvP is imba you noobs.
Hydras are the nuts.
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With all due respect, hydras are NOT the nuts.
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Nuts is a Royal Flush draw postflop.
Oh wait, wat?
Skill > imbalance (this used to be in my WGT profile waaaay back when protoss didn't FE, oh fond memories)
P.s.: Best just screwed up, there's no need to whine imba here. And frankly I don't think Destination is that bad for PvZ. It would be a better map imo if the 2nd gas (where LJD built his lair) would be reduced to a min-only, whereas the current min-only (corners) would get the gas instead. My 0.02 (small blind)
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I think the biggest reson T>Z is the maps that hasent been fair to zergs in recent years. There have basically always been one or two graveyard maps for the zerg and it countinous with Plasma this year.
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toss needs to have a corsair combo or it becomes Soooo ez to win
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It's way to few good Zergs around to call any imbalance on that. Jaedong is just supergood, he really is. Most zergs have a pretty shitty record vs Toss, and alot of tosses handles Zergs pretty damn good.
If anything, it's Jaedong who makes the matchup imbalanced, not the races. If you read his latest interview about the win vs best, you can see how fragile everything is for zerg, and how perfect you have to play it.
I'm sure most people think that Luxury for example will have a hard time vs Stork in their proleague match that is upcoming, and most would consider Luxury to be the second best Zerg on the planet.
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On October 09 2008 22:25 Kyuki wrote:
It's way to few good Zergs around to call any imbalance on that. Jaedong is just supergood, he really is. Most zergs have a pretty shitty record vs Toss, and alot of tosses handles Zergs pretty damn good.
Compare the PvZ% of top 5 protoss players (ranked by elo peaks) with the ZvP% of top zerg players of all time and you get:
Stork 52.75% 91 games
Bisu 61.90% 63 games
Nal_Ra 53.04% 115 games
Anytime 57.58% 66 games
Reach 45.16% 155 games
---avg--- 52.2% 490 games
Jaedong 65.08% 63 games
Savior 68.24% 85 games
GoRush 54.55% 66 games
July 66.98% 106 games
Luxury 56.52% 46 games
---avg--- 63.2% 366 games
There are some other protoss with very good PvZ% (Kal, for example), but small the sample size wont affect this average too much. Also, there are more zergs with better ZvP% and more games that I did not add (Chojja, for example).
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ZvT is more messed up. If you check the top ten ZvT by win percentage in the MU thread in the broodwar section. The tenth best ZvT has a win percentage of 39%.
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T>Z is a lie.
love the fact that most people say that terran only needs 1-2 bases, well guess what, its harder to expand with terran than any other race...
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
can't we just all agree Best's PvZ isnt that great and Best is Jaedong's bitch?
I mean even in WCG at game 2 he went lurkers because he wanted to see how affective it was and Best was struggling so hard to even concentrate in that game.
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EPT
