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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/1.jpg) ________ ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/11.jpg)
How To Watch?
1. Daum Player
2. Yaoyuan
3. That sportslive daum thing...post the link please...
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United States20661 Posts
so how do you calculate these odds
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On October 07 2008 09:24 Last Romantic wrote:
so how do you calculate these odds
Summary and ratio of the following statistics...
1. overall record in that matchup
2. head-to-head record
3. map balance statistics
4. last ten overall
5. last ten in that MU
6. player's record on that map
7. bonus points awarded if that player is ranked on my personal power rank for each month
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9070 Posts
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Thats a sweetass picture. gogo jaedong
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Hmm, I liquidbet that SKT1 is gonna pull an upset...=0
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gogo jaedong!
Predictions:
Canata>forGG
Fantasy>BackHo
Hyuk<Lomo
Best<Jaedong
all<Jaedong
Lecaf makes a huge comeback and takes this 3-2. All I really want to see are epic games though, and I think any of these have the opportunity for it
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liquibet is on lecaf
badass jaedong vs best picture i must say
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fOrGG's such a smart player and I daresay we'll see some more of his cliff abuse in tonight's match. It really depends how much he's prepared for this match.
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10387 Posts
if it was Bisu v Jaedong, that would be far more epic imo. They have produced some of the best PvZs.
Best will get slaughtered, unfortunately :\ Bisu v Jaedong Ace match ftw
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
Canata vs forgg is gonna decide this, not best vs JD. JD is gonna walk all over Best because Best has to practice for the OSL quarterfinals, which is gonna come much sooner than the MSL Ro16. The ace match is a tough call, but if I were SKT i would send out Bisu, who has nothing much to practice for atm. Lecaf has already stretched itself thin, and unless it wants to send out a horrible player for the ace match, one of their top players will have to practice for two matches. That is why I bet on SKT.
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United States10328 Posts
Canata > ForGG
Fantasy > Backho
Hyuk < Lomo
Best < Jaedong
Ace:
Bisu > Jaedong
lol gogo skt win me some liquibet points XD
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Bisu is gonna win this for SKT
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Destination is a pretty straight forward map.
Since PvZ is imba, and Jaedong is the best ZvP.. it will be very hard for Best.
But not impossible. It could be a very short game though, that's my prediction.
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All matches are up in the air, really. Save Best vs Jaedong. :p
I do hope we get close matches, and not a one-sided rape.
Ace match pls!
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Hm, much of this will depend on the opener. If Canata can effectively take down ForGG, SKT has a chance for Fantasy to put it 2:0 up and they'll make the ace at least. If Canata goes down, I'll expect Jaedong and Lomo to clean up, while Backho just does ... a Backho.
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3-0 sweep for Lecaf, seriously, it could happen. Maybe.
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Predictions:
Canata < ForGG
Fantasy > Backho
Hyuk < Lomo
Best < Jaedong
gg!!
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Every time I root for Jaedong he loses so...go Best! Hwaiting!
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Both teams are counting this match to go to ace, which it has a very good likelihood of.
SKT1 is saving Midas and Bisu (I dunno about Bisu, he's got a potential 5 games to play between friday/saturday) and Lecaf looks like they're going to send out ForGG.
Hopefully SKT1 can prevent it from going to ace.
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IMO we won't even be able to see Best vs Jaedong
go go Lecaf 3-0 SKT!!!
edit: I wonder why ppl think that BackHo is going to lose against fantasy... he's PvT is still rough around the edges but he still managed to beat Leta on Chupung... with practice he can win that one
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Gogo Lecaf EZPZ
I predict
Canata > fOrGG (canata has beastly TvT, won't lie)
fantasy < BackHo
Hyuk < Lomo
BeSt < Jaedong
(I hate Best =X)
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Canata < fOrGG
fantasy < BackHo
Hyuk < Lomo
0-3 no best vs JD :/
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Oh, I just noticed, LR's icon has changed back.
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GO SKT1!!!
go rape them :D
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I sincerely hope Best has cleaned up his corsair micro. He's going to need it, most likely.
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Gogo Best make Protoss players proud! And where the fuck is Bisu o.O or Midas for that matter. Seems like Best is the new workhorse.
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GoGo Lecaf!
LEE JAEDONG! FIGHTING!
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Honestly since it's the beginning of the season it's hard to vote AGAINST SKT1
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is awesome32274 Posts
Oh shit, BeSt vs Jaedong~
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Canata v. fOrGG will be interesting, tough to call really. I like fOrGG more but Canata IS TvT so we'll see.
fantasy v. BackHo... fantasy should take this. BackHo looks clueless outside of PvP.
Hyuk v. Lomo, Lomo is the favorite for sure, 70% TvZ vs. 22% ZvT.
Best v. Jaedong, Jaedong SHOULD win this ez.
If Canata wins, I could see SKT winning this in ace since they have a lot of options to work with against JD/fOrGG/whoever else OZ sends as ace. If fOrGG wins, should be 3-1 Lecaf with a possible 3-0 if BackHo successfully DT drops fantasy or something.
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SKT won't play Bisu here. He has far too much PvP to prepare for, and Lecaf doesn't have a particularly weighty PvP lineup anymore.
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BeSt vs. Jaedong.. so hard to call. I love both these players.
Despite really strong lineups for both teams, I'm giving it to Lecaf Oz in the ace.
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United States12607 Posts
T1 FIGHTING
Canata > fOrGG
fantasy > BackHo
Hyuk > Lomo (yes I am serious, Hyuk's ZvT hasn't been horrible lately. OK it is a fanboy vote, so what?)
3-0 just like last season! JD fans: hope that this doesn't go to a fourth set, you don't want to expose your boy to BeSt.
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United States1654 Posts
I can't believe there are still people out there who think Best's PvZ is good.
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The OP mentioned that there aren't so many mirror matchups tonight. That got me thinking. It's pretty apparent that both teams are going all-out. However, since they're going all-out with their players, they might not have the best map for the set. Who has the advantage then?
Colosseum 2: Teams are sending out all races on this map. Maybe it won't nave an effect on this matchup.
RaiD Assault 2: Every proleague team has sent out a zerg on this map. The stats show that it's relatively balanced for ZvT --but those stats are from 2005. I think Lecaf sent out Lomo in the hope of sniping a second rate zerg on this map. A reasonable plan, but if fOrGG drops the first set, I'm going to be a little nervous of an 0-3 upset.
Destination: Again, teams have sent out all races on this map. Before now, the only ZvP on this map was jangbi vs yarnc. Hopefully we'll see a quality game here.
Chupung-Ryeong: Most teams have been sending out protoss or terran here. Usually protoss, so we might see an appearance from the Revolutionist against either fOrGG or Jaedong.
That's my two cents. I hope lecaf will take in ace.
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United States11390 Posts
I hope this game goes to ace so Jaedong can rape Best and Bisu.
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I want to see the forth game here.
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apperantly Lecaf send Lomo on RA2 b/c of his wrights micro
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On October 07 2008 17:13 CDRdude wrote:The OP mentioned that there aren't so many mirror matchups tonight. That got me thinking. It's pretty apparent that both teams are going all-out. However, since they're going all-out with their players, they might not have the best map for the set. Who has the advantage then? Colosseum 2: Teams are sending out all races on this map. Maybe it won't nave an effect on this matchup. RaiD Assault 2: Every proleague team has sent out a zerg on this map. The stats show that it's relatively balanced for ZvT --but those stats are from 2005. I think Lecaf sent out Lomo in the hope of sniping a second rate zerg on this map. A reasonable plan, but if fOrGG drops the first set, I'm going to be a little nervous of an 0-3 upset. Destination: Again, teams have sent out all races on this map. Before now, the only ZvP on this map was jangbi vs yarnc. Hopefully we'll see a quality game here. Chupung-Ryeong: Most teams have been sending out protoss or terran here. Usually protoss, so we might see an appearance from the Revolutionist against either fOrGG or Jaedong. That's my two cents. I hope lecaf will take in ace.
Hold on a minute, I think I saw the word "upset" somewhere over there...SKT winning is what should happen, you heretics be silent calling it upsets!
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Is there anywhere you can see this? Will VODs be up somewhere? Been getting spoiled by the ease and immediacy of gomtv
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I'm cheering for Lecaf , but i don't want either of the teams takeing it in some 3 - 0 rapes ACE mach please  .
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Boongee you are the shit. Thank you so much. You have no idea how much happier i am now. Thanks
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Canata
BackHo
Lomo
JaeFuckin`Dong
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hope for:
canata < forgg
fantasy < backho
hyuk > lomo
best > jaedong
ace < ace ^^
2:3
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someone make a thread for OGN VS Samsung
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Given BackHo's last PvT against Leta (hardly a chump), I would say some of you are burying him a little too fast. Let's see if all his good decisions were just luck or if he can actually PvT.
Otherwise, we could have virtually any result tonight. Both lineups are really impressive. I have to side with Lecaf though.
Edit : I forgot to say I really like your OP 3 Lions. The facts you mention are really interesting imo. GJ
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why is (almost) everyone predicting jaedong > best? >< i think best has a pretty good shot of beating him and at worst its 50-50. jd is pretty inconsistent these days overall and relies too much on his micro to get him out of unfavorable situations which works usually against players that should be worse than him anyway but against the hot streaking macro beast of best who has shown he's also good at guerilla play that won't be enough. he's gonna have to really be playing in top form ;o
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Is there a stream compatible with a mac?
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Nevermind, it magically started to work on the fly. Yay. I can even watch both simultaneously 
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I really want to watch SKT vs Lecaf today
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and oh shit its starting ><
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canata < forgg
fantasy > backho
hyuk < lomo
best < jaedong
Lecaf 3-1
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daum is laging like hell. I am watching Yellow[arnc] vs Jangbi cause TvT sucks. But I will switch to skt vs lecaf after that match.
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canata > forgg
fantasy < backho
hyuk < lomo
best > jaedong
midas > jaedong
that last one is kind of wishful thinking as in that'd be fucking awesome and the perfect ace match to win it in a close one for skt =D cj's my team but i love skt too, proly 2nd fav team and ive hated lecaf forever ;o
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On October 07 2008 18:33 NahLGaE wrote:
why is (almost) everyone predicting jaedong > best? >< i think best has a pretty good shot of beating him and at worst its 50-50. jd is pretty inconsistent these days overall and relies too much on his micro to get him out of unfavorable situations which works usually against players that should be worse than him anyway but against the hot streaking macro beast of best who has shown he's also good at guerilla play that won't be enough. he's gonna have to really be playing in top form ;o
The reason people are predicting jaedong is since he beat stork in the osl he is 26/4 out of his last 30 ZvPs, Or almost those exact numbers.
Best is one of the coolest protoss of all time. His PvT is art. PvP is science. Unfortunately he has yet to raise his PvZ to the highest levels to compete with the counter master of it, july and jaedong. Hopefully he will master PvZ on the highest level and give JD and July a 50/50 run for it, unfortunately if you look at his PvZ record against top zergs it isn't very good.
Jd is the better player for sure and he is very consistent, I don't know where your getting your information from.
Losing to Yellow zvz who is 65% in the matchup is no problem. His last 4 zvts he is 3/1 and the one he lost was an unstandard 8rax. His last ZvZ match against Luxury he dismanted him. His last two ZvP matchs he dominated stork and best in bo3's and his last finals against flash (one of the best terrans in the world) he went 3/0. He has won like 5 out of 6 of his last matches, only losing to forgg in the msl, after taking out hwasin and much.
Where do you get your he isn't consistent impression from?.... I know he doesn't have a 100% win rate but he is preforming higher then any other player right by.
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DAUM sports == no lag at all
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Oh YEAH
LECAF FIGHTING.
If they beat skt1 I will expect a big season from them!
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Seems like Jangbi is owning fake yellow in the other match TT
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they need to drug the dude, i mean, hes so fuckin tensed.
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LOL, forgg paused, i'd like to know the reason for that one
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On October 07 2008 18:41 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 18:33 NahLGaE wrote:
why is (almost) everyone predicting jaedong > best? >< i think best has a pretty good shot of beating him and at worst its 50-50. jd is pretty inconsistent these days overall and relies too much on his micro to get him out of unfavorable situations which works usually against players that should be worse than him anyway but against the hot streaking macro beast of best who has shown he's also good at guerilla play that won't be enough. he's gonna have to really be playing in top form ;o The reason people are predicting jaedong is since he beat stork in the osl he is 26/4 out of his last 30 ZvPs, Or almost those exact numbers. Best is one of the coolest protoss of all time. His PvT is art. PvP is science. Unfortunately he has yet to raise his PvZ to the highest levels to compete with the counter master of it, july and jaedong. Hopefully he will master PvZ on the highest level and give JD and July a 50/50 run for it, unfortunately if you look at his PvZ record against top zergs it isn't very good. Jd is the better player for sure and he is very consistent, I don't know where your getting your information from. Losing to Yellow zvz who is 65% in the matchup is no problem. His last 4 zvts he is 3/1 and the one he lost was an unstandard 8rax. His last ZvZ match against Luxury he dismanted him. His last two ZvP matchs he dominated stork and best in bo3's and his last finals against flash (one of the best terrans in the world) he went 3/0. He has won like 5 out of 6 of his last matches, only losing to forgg in the msl, after taking out hwasin and much. Where do you get your he isn't consistent impression from?.... I know he doesn't have a 100% win rate but he is preforming higher then any other player right by.
he's been showing some pretty good pvz too. altho there havent been many he's played recently, the only ones that come to mind really are the semis and finals of last osl against luxury and july. he showed some pretty good play against lux even tho you can argue lux hasnt been known for great pvz in the past but recently he's been pretty good and getting better. and of course the 3-0 to july but july is just ridiculously good pvz (the last game vs bisu comes to mind where it really looked like bisu was doing pretty well and had an advantage and then out of nowhere the god of war's skills just came thru and broke thru). so i dont think you can discount best as not being all that good at pvz. i agree he hasnt been thoroughly tested yet but i think the games he has played pvz recently have still been pretty impressive and he has a pretty good chance against jaedong who himself wasnt known to be great pvz until pretty recently.
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was there a kind of a technical issue or what? They seem to be be arguing about something
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they said forgg said his sound was going out intermittedly (sp?) or something ;o
sounds like haxxxx XD
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lol forgg is gonna rape him
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The reason nobody is predicting Best beating Jaedong is simple. Best's sair management and harassment management is still his weakest aspect of PvZ, and being better than Jaedong at both is the only way a Protoss has won over him straight up lately (well, on top of strong macro and gamesense and that was Bisu/Jaedong back when these teams met last). I do believe Best has improved then, but I still would not bet on his chances.
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Can someone live report please ?
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Canta went early gas and gone 2 fac cuting scvs later on. Ran into forgg with 4 tanks, vults mines and marines and got raped by wraith / tanks by FOrgg that went FE lol -_-
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[/QUOTE]
QUOTE]
he's been showing some pretty good pvz too.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
I explained why most people give JD the edge and I was disagree with the ZvP/PvZ estimate of 50/50. His play against GGplay was insane. I do think he is improving at the matchup and I think he is one of the best Toss around. The fact is no protoss except maybe bisu could be given given 50/50 at this current time.
I hope best joins JD and flash in the top 3 so all three races are equally dominate for the first time ever. He just hasn't shown that level of play yet.
Enjoy the match!
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and now its tunring into 6 fac vs 2 fac xD
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On October 07 2008 18:56 Boonbag wrote:
Canta went early gas and gone 2 fac cuting scvs later on. Ran into forgg with 4 tanks, vults mines and marines and got raped by wraith / tanks by FOrgg that went FE lol -_-
Wow ForGG is really a freaking monster ... He will be a force equall to JD this PL season .
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lol @forgg showing some massive fail >.>
Lost all his tanks to sieged ones of canata @center, while trying to sneak a vulture pack around
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On October 07 2008 18:58 Boonbag wrote:
lol @forgg showing some massive fail >.>
Lost all his tanks to sieged ones of canata @center, while trying to sneak a vulture pack around
Is ForGG winning ?
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lol forgg cliffing canata's main hahaa by ferrying units 2 by 2 wtf >;>
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its over imo, forgg raping
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canata isnt mining from his main, and is unable to get rid of the cliffing, while at the same time, center is contained by forgg with a bunch of tanks
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Yer ForGG is way ahead in fax and units and is now taking C's cliff
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Forgg dropped 4 tanks on the main cliff.
It is doing severe damage. ForGG has this game.
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lolrape btw
meditation wasn't enough !
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
ForGG has a lot of units massed in the middle of the map ready to smash Canata.
But that doesnt even matter since he failed to clear the drop and GGs.
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Forgg just ran straight over Canata, his trademark of always having more units sealing the game. This does not bode well for SKT. : <
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I can't understand what themarine is saying atm, but im pretty sure hes basically detailing how fail was canata's rush >.>
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I can't imagine practicing well over 30-40 games for one tvt and never thinking to build a depot or turret up their.
I also don't understand why he did opt to attempt a similar cliff abuse.....
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On October 07 2008 19:04 AttackZerg wrote:
I can't imagine practicing well over 30-40 games for one tvt and never thinking to build a depot or turret up their.
I also don't understand why he did opt to attempt a similar cliff abuse.....
He was uber low on cash and had to catch back. Had he gone for drop Forgg wouldve just ran over him without even sieging
Game was basically over as soon that second wraith popped, even if at some point forgg massively fucked up @the midle.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On October 07 2008 19:06 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 19:04 AttackZerg wrote:
I can't imagine practicing well over 30-40 games for one tvt and never thinking to build a depot or turret up their.
I also don't understand why he did opt to attempt a similar cliff abuse..... He was uber low on cash and had to catch back. Had he gone for drop Forgg wouldve just ran over him without even sieging Game was basically over as soon that second wraith popped, even if at some point forgg massively fucked up @the midle.
Still, putting no defence up there (mines f.e.) is just asking for being cliffed.
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A single depot might have given him enough time to react.
And for the strategic comment, it was about his entire game strategy, not a midgame strategic choice.
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Yeah, I was just answering the "why didnt he drop cliff as well" thing.
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this first game was pretty important now that i think about it after its over. now im legit pretty scared of a lecaf 3-0 sweep >< it was important in that it couldve gone the other way too for a skt sweep
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That was impressive by fOrGG. This guy really picked up his TvT over the last 6 months. His 3-0 Flash rape was not an accident. Lecaf really has a chance this season with 2 aces and no 2v2 to fail at.
If BackHo gets consistent, Lecaf will crush just about anyone.
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omfg anyone watching the commercials? the ava disco thing is pretty hilarious wtffff lollll
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Korea (South)922 Posts
anyone else entertained by that ava commercial
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While we're on the subject of depots on the cliff, did anybody see if fOrGG had one? Sure, he had the initiative, but was he prepared for a counterattack? I don't think his starport would have given him enough vision/time to rally units to defense.
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This is the best commercial I've ever seen for an FPS (A.V.A.?).
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On October 07 2008 19:10 Uraeus wrote:
That was impressive by fOrGG. This guy really picked up his TvT over the last 6 months. His 3-0 Flash rape was not an accident. Lecaf really has a chance this season with 2 aces and no 2v2 to fail at.
If BackHo gets consistent, Lecaf will crush just about anyone.
It was 3-1. Not that it matters though. If I recall correctly, flash cheesed the game that he won. fOrGG's certainly impressive. If they can just send BackHo out against all protoss, lecaf will do really well.
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Wow, massive red bars on everyone in the game haha, instant PP
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Netherlands6142 Posts
*sigh* wtb: new computers
:-/
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On October 07 2008 19:12 CDRdude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 19:10 Uraeus wrote:
That was impressive by fOrGG. This guy really picked up his TvT over the last 6 months. His 3-0 Flash rape was not an accident. Lecaf really has a chance this season with 2 aces and no 2v2 to fail at.
If BackHo gets consistent, Lecaf will crush just about anyone. It was 3-1. Not that it matters though. If I recall correctly, flash cheesed the game that he won. fOrGG's certainly impressive. If they can just send BackHo out against all protoss, lecaf will do really well.
IIRC, forgg failed proxy rax. Not that it matters though.
gogo backho!
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Korea (South)922 Posts
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Yes, my bad, it was 3-1. The 3-0 was against JD
And yes, if somehow BackHo faces Tosses only, it will get scary. I cannot keep thinking that BackHo's PvT is getting better though (not too hard given where he comes from). If BackHo was strong at 2 match ups, the team would be even better than the season they won the Proleague title
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At least we can see Kang Min talking
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On October 07 2008 19:11 CDRdude wrote:
While we're on the subject of depots on the cliff, did anybody see if fOrGG had one? Sure, he had the initiative, but was he prepared for a counterattack? I don't think his starport would have given him enough vision/time to rally units to defense.
If my memory serves me right, he only had the starport. my minimap memory isn't always perfect thou. Although strategically he knew he was against 2 factory, so it was less likely that cantana could drop.
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kang min commentating is rofl lol and the thing about eating raw eggs for his voice ahaha thats win.
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haha, sweet... now i don't have to go full screen everytime
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I just heard "Oh yoon joon" by one of the commentators. Does anyone here speak Korean and could tell me what the dude said about  Anytime please?
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Hah, fantasy makes Backho look like a D- newb that he is
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lol poor kid getting raped by some androgyn shemale pedo TT
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For some reason this made me open a second MBC stream, creating a scary echo in the voices of the commentators. They sound like protoss now. :O
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fw
Korea (South)1201 Posts
On October 07 2008 19:25 Uraeus wrote:I just heard "Oh yoon joon" by one of the commentators. Does anyone here speak Korean and could tell me what the dude said about Anytime please?
"oh yeong jong"
forgg should play a role as lecaf's ace on compensating for anytime's absence and backho might have the potential of it.
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Dragoon = 1 mode is on for Backho btw. Now available in PvT too!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
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OMFG ASSAULTED KID FIGHTING PEDO OFF
edit : or not TT
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Fantasy sick sick control
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fw
Korea (South)1201 Posts
lol, everyone screaming, he NEED it. "MINE Boooooooomb !!!!!"
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9070 Posts
i'm so glad this rape happened
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fw
Korea (South)1201 Posts
at least we can see BEST vs JAEDONG !
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And SKT ties it 1:1 up. Hopefully Hyuk can take out Lomo - the less pressure on Best in what will be a very difficult match for him, the better.
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that 2nd scv scouting after waiting finding the multi and adun going up was so crucial lol. it was all fantasy after that gg
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Well, at least now we're guaranteed a JD vs Best game.
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fantasy is so entertaining to watch
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Fantasy's vultures were everywhere that game, Nice play by him!
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Man, Fantasy looks like some giant epic psychedelic androgynous ultra intelligent bird but he is fantastic player
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Korea (South)922 Posts
asian pizza = toss any random american appetizer or twenty on top of cheese and call it a pizza, korean commercials are odd ^^
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hot girl in that commercial whoa
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On October 07 2008 19:30 fw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 19:25 Uraeus wrote:I just heard "Oh yoon joon" by one of the commentators. Does anyone here speak Korean and could tell me what the dude said about Anytime please? "oh yeong jong" forgg should play a role as lecaf's ace on compensating for anytime's absence and backho might have the potential of it.
Thanks a lot. Even though I don't think BackHo could be a reliable ace just yet. He is their only decent Protoss though.
Sad, I already miss Anytime in their roster. I hope he will get a lot of play time for Ace.
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On October 07 2008 19:41 ForVengeance wrote:
Man, Fantasy looks like some giant epic psychedelic androgynous ultra intelligent bird but he is fantastic player
Aka the psycho pedo
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I think fantasy is quickly shaping into a top terran. His gametime composer is always good.
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Korea (South)922 Posts
this narrator was cool the first 2 minutes..now this is annoying..
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rofl wtf at the msl recap... 'joker mutalisk' 'dark knight mutalisk' lol... are they being paid by the dark knight? ><
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these progamers man, brilliant amazing nerds. its great
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On October 07 2008 19:46 NahLGaE wrote:
rofl wtf at the msl recap... 'joker mutalisk' 'dark knight mutalisk' lol... are they being paid by the dark knight? ><
i was wondering why the joker was in the video o_o
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This bestofworst thing is so long , everytime it comes on I go and have a smoke and come back and its just ending t.t
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hyuk's zvt record isn't looking so hot o:
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Thanks MBC for reminding me that with Lux and Flash out, my Fantasy MSL team is screwed...
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I love Lomo's wraith build, but I want to see him play standard this game
edit: forget about it, he's getting early gas
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I like that "I don't give a fuck" look Hyuk always has on his face. Makes him look kinda badass.
Not sure if Bubble Gum mode is engaged for Lomo. Quite oddly he seems to play better when chewing.
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Hyuk totally expecting that wraith build from Lomo, no spire and early hydras.
Seriously, Lomo's wraith build is getting old...
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Good defense from Hyuk so far.
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Lomo manages to pick up quite a few drones, even though Hyuk has spores up in both bases
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Lomo's wraith are even more predictable than Flash's 14CC. Hyuk totally anticipated that. 2-1 SKT incoming. Unless Hyuk's micro sucks hard.
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Ugh why didnt he put the spore up behind the mineral line
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very nice defence with ranged hydras and spore!
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fw
Korea (South)1201 Posts
wtf, why don't he place hydras just behind the min patches?
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Haha, Hyuk totally predicted that but still got owned...
Zergs need to come up with better Lomo-counters.
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Wow can't remember the last time I've used Daum and it's not even asking to update? Crazy But damn my stream is an utter fail today. Am I the only one who can't watch a thing? Would really love to LJD and fighting! <3
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lomo sick micro and macro fair play ^^
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that was so gay lol i hope lomo freaking dies ~_~
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oh my god I love lomo
I just wish he'd play standard once in a while
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fw
Korea (South)1201 Posts
bunky, transform into mighty evil red and punish the losers!
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Hahahaha, fuck no, I would never want Lomo to play standard. His TvZ is ridiculously entertaining, and actually effective. In this game, Hyuk knew exactly what was coming but he still couldn't defeat it. It's like they have a phobia of throwing down a couple extra well placed spore colonies.
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I don't know what you're all complaining about. Yes, lomo likes wraiths. But since SK terran is still really popular, wraith builds outside of Plasma is a breath of fresh air, as far as I'm concerned.
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On October 07 2008 20:02 3nickma wrote:Wow can't remember the last time I've used Daum and it's not even asking to update? Crazy But damn my stream is an utter fail today. Am I the only one who can't watch a thing?<3
Yeah, the usual daumplayer has been horrible lately, try one of the other streams posted a few pages back.
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On October 07 2008 20:04 Sunyveil wrote:
oh my god I love lomo
I just wish he'd play standard once in a while
This is standard for Raid Assault .
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Is the OP still around? It would be nice if he updated his results spoiler.
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On October 07 2008 20:02 3nickma wrote:Wow can't remember the last time I've used Daum and it's not even asking to update? Crazy But damn my stream is an utter fail today. Am I the only one who can't watch a thing? Would really love to LJD and fighting! <3
buffers to 100%, can see 3 second, then i see the last second again, then it buffers again
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Yeah, 2-3 more spore colonies (especially behind the min line) would have hurt his economy a lot less than losing zillion probes and hydras under wraith fire.
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Best will never fail to clutch.
Jaedong, better end it fast or else ~_~
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9070 Posts
Best > JD and after that Bisu > JD will make the perfect day
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Let's see if Best has learned anything.
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JAEDONG > P
Jaedong > Best
Lecaf > skt1
zizi yo~!
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Finally a stream that's more of less working with just a bit stuttering but guess I can manage. go Go GO JD!
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BeSt is the underdog, but I think he has at least 1:2 odds of winning.
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On October 07 2008 20:13 disciple wrote:
Best > JD and after that Bisu > JD will make the perfect day
LOL
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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On October 07 2008 20:13 disciple wrote:
Best > JD and after that Bisu > JD will make the perfect day
I hope you realize how unlikely your dream is. I think forgg is more likely as an ace. There's even a remote chance of BackHo, if they want to snipe a protoss ace like bisu.
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Best better win this so we can get a rematch in ace!
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On October 07 2008 20:16 3nickma wrote:
Finally a stream that's more of less working with just a bit stuttering but guess I can manage. go Go GO JD!
Each and every stream has been failing me lately, ecept good old YaoYuan that works almost perfectly.
It takes ages to start though, but you might want to give it a try : http://www.yaoyuan.com/live.htm (it is on the MBC channel, not OGN)
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On October 07 2008 20:19 sushiman wrote:Best better win this so we can get a rematch in ace!
Signed.
Best > JD set 4
Best > JD Ace
Best > JD life
Best > JD afterlife
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I used to like best, but now I almost hate him
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On October 07 2008 20:20 zgl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 20:19 sushiman wrote:Best better win this so we can get a rematch in ace! Signed. Best > JD set 4 Best > JD Ace Best > JD life Best > JD afterlife
lol yesss +1 XD
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if its not too much hassle live reports plz
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JD is setup for a HUGE macro game. He has 3 bases already, with high drone count, and 6 hatches
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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JD with a large hydra force. Best will need templars with storm fast.
Hydras take out Best's 3rd base attempt.
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WHERE ARE THE TEMPLARS FROM YOUR ARMY HOLY SHIT =[
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Best 
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nice amount of wave of hydras!
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...and in other news, stork just lost to type-b in OGN vs KHAN acematch.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
JD great at dodging storms
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best almost out of minerals... hes doomed
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On October 07 2008 20:32 EvilTeletubby wrote:
JD great at dodging storms
More like almost no storms and best failed em all
He dodged like twice and saved 10 hydras total
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
WOW, hero lurkers, Best GG's
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GG! THE LEGEND KILLER!!! WINS!!
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That was almost like looking at backho pvz :/
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9070 Posts
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JD, what a freaking monster.....
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total supremacy! HAHAHHAHAHA i knew it.
man JD is so awsome!
:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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Lol 24 kills lurker at the nat as the coup de grace. Jaedong is a BEAST.
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gg.
god i hate jd so freaking much. more than anyone else ><
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good old fashionned zvp rape
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On October 07 2008 20:34 sushiman wrote:
That was almost like looking at backho pvz :/
QFE
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jaedong manhandles best.
gg, Lecaf 3:1 SKT
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GG. BeSt couldn't slow down Jaedong's early double expo. Jaedong played flawlessly with his eco advantage.
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I think I had a zergasm watching all those hydralisks flood in and rape best's army
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On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map
Only said after the game 
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On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map
how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't?
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and yeah that is a pretty gay pvz map actually ><
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jaedong's just too good for best
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9070 Posts
screw the map ! the 3rd gas is so far away, toss cant defend it
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lol. Best hasn't learned anything.
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Gah The fuck BeSt made the poorest decisions I've ever seen in pro PvZ (Just like Bisu vs July in their first MSL group stages game).
This muta -> masshydra seems to be somewhat of the new trend, with later incorporated lurkers...I don't find it that hard to deal with, honestly. Lurkling is more troubling...I don't understand why he made that many goons instead of just a handful + temps. 5-6 goons for free shots while the massive hydra army tries to dodge zealot blades + storms are just enough...without storm it's a massacre, too many units lots for nothing
Edit: I forgot the mention the 4 (4!!!! HOLY SHIT!) archons vs pure hydras. 2 + temps plz? I don't think 2 or 3 archons made the difference when deflecting that muta harass...
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Bad Storming and a lack of templars. : (
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I think BeSt still has nightmares of  July beating him
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OMFG what a slideshow! But still I get to say...
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
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4 archons vs JDs mutas results in a best loss.
3 archons vs Julys mutas results in a bisu loss.
Maybe Sairs/reaver/goon is good yes?
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Best made all of his early templars into archons, so he didn't have storm ready for the hydra switch. Even if he did have templars, he was playing with a big eco disadvantage.
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I don't understand why best continues to make archons to fight muta, and he could have done sairs, saving the templars and storms for hydras. And of course the game was over when he lost the unfinished third.
ZvP is so simple, just make three hatches and deny protoss from getting third with mass army. In the meantime expand and that's it. GG.
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On October 07 2008 20:36 Naib wrote:Gah The fuck BeSt made the poorest decisions I've ever seen in pro PvZ (Just like Bisu vs July in their first MSL group stages game ). This muta -> masshydra seems to be somewhat of the new trend, with later incorporated lurkers...I don't find it that hard to deal with, honestly. Lurkling is more troubling...I don't understand why he made that many goons instead of just a handful + temps. 5-6 goons for free shots while the massive hydra army tries to dodge zealot blades + storms are just enough...without storm it's a massacre, too many units lots for nothing
Well I think Best played right into JD's hands by morphing 3 archons to combat the mutas so he didn't really have any storms to fight with when he moved out. 2 would have been plenty enough to deal with the threat really.
EDIT: Everyone made the point before me...
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9070 Posts
On October 07 2008 20:39 AttackZerg wrote:
4 archons vs JDs mutas results in a best loss.
3 archons vs Julys mutas results in a bisu loss.
Maybe Sairs/reaver/goon is good yes?
I think sair/reaver is an option on this map, or maybe just 2gates hardcore zealot rush, I will do it anytime
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Dont you people understand?
Best made templars vs hydra, but he HAD to archon them because jaedong was flying around trying to snipe templars...
Jaedong u played awesome GOGO
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Lack of Templars? Man, Bests unitcombo wasnt bad, he just got manhandled really. His Templars was sniped at EVERY battle, same with obs sniping, which was almost flawless.
JDs micro is just amazing! Man I love his play.. So inspiring!
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On October 07 2008 20:39 arbiter_md wrote:
I don't understand why best continues to make archons to fight muta, and he could have done sairs, saving the templars and storms for hydras. And of course the game was over when he lost the unfinished third.
ZvP is so simple, just make three hatches and deny protoss from getting third with mass army. In the meantime expand and that's it. GG.
This is dumb =(
It was 5 hats then 6.
And not having a good unit mix was bests fault also.
And for those of you talking about JDs eco advantage .... His 12 hat started at the same time as bests 14 nexus ..... and no early preasure.....
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Canata<forGG
Fantasy>BackHo
Hyuk<Lomo
Best<Jaedong
Final???
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Btw, the MBC commentators really rock the OGN ones imo. They're great (although I dont understand shit )
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Jaedong made archons, not best :O
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No doubt at all that JD played better. But to improve, Best definitely needs to work on his unit mix versus this type of strat.
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9070 Posts
the game was combination of JD playing great and BeSt playing crap. I thought he will be more consistent with his scouting but after the first probe he never actually managed to get a peak at JD base, even his first sair was denied pretty fast. And btw what kind of BO was that? I thought he was going for the +1 timing push but he invested in HT tech and when he decided to move out he had only like 3 zealots and JD already had a sunk at his lair.
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Actually, I think BeSt's biggest weakness is that he doesn't harass effectively in any matchup. If he gets into mid game with equal resource, its auto-win for him... but he needs to learn to harass effective to keep his opponent from too greedy.
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its not like best doesnt know he needs templar vs muta... try make templars when muta fly around ur base.. quite hard.
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On October 07 2008 20:35 NahLGaE wrote:
gg.
god i hate jd so freaking much. more than anyone else ><
Know why people were saying JD would win now? >_>
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OK, maybe we will try to find out what mistakes were done by Best.
First, he didn't know at the begining if the muta will come or hydras. That's always and unknown thing for protoss fighting a good zerg. So, he could have done sairs risking to get with hydras at his doors, or could have done more templars with the other risk. This is the first guess that toss has to do in order to survive.
When the muta were in his base, it was late to make sairs because of scorges, of course. And those cannons die in seconds. This way muta become so cost effective at the beginning that it's impossible for toss not to lose something.
Second, he tried to expand too early, I think. I thought it is a good idea to expand while making pressure, but it didn't work. Probably should have stayed in two bases until he had a good army.
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On October 07 2008 20:39 arbiter_md wrote:
I don't understand why best continues to make archons to fight muta, and he could have done sairs, saving the templars and storms for hydras. And of course the game was over when he lost the unfinished third.
ZvP is so simple, just make three hatches and deny protoss from getting third with mass army. In the meantime expand and that's it. GG.
you should definitely try ZvPing nony first
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omg i reaally want the vods to be up, when when when
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I know shit happens sometimes and a OP can't update results, but this is the second time in 2 days where someone hasn't updated. It's annoying. Don't make a OP if you can't keep it updated... Even if you have a cool layout, PM it to someone who will give you credit for it, create the thread, and then update results
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United States1865 Posts
Dancing Jaedong #2
![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/21oy1hk.png)
On October 02 2008 09:53 jwd241224 wrote:
How did Lecaf's matches against T1 go last season? Oh shit...
3-0
3-0
Jaedong will be lucky if his team lasts long enough for him to get owned by BeSt in the fourth set...
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On October 07 2008 21:14 arbiter_md wrote:
OK, maybe we will try to find out what mistakes were done by Best.
First, he didn't know at the begining if the muta will come or hydras. That's always and unknown thing for protoss fighting a good zerg. So, he could have done sairs risking to get with hydras at his doors, or could have done more templars with the other risk. This is the first guess that toss has to do in order to survive.
When the muta were in his base, it was late to make sairs because of scorges, of course. And those cannons die in seconds. This way muta become so cost effective at the beginning that it's impossible for toss not to lose something.
Second, he tried to expand too early, I think. I thought it is a good idea to expand while making pressure, but it didn't work. Probably should have stayed in two bases until he had a good army.
yeah...i also think he expanded to early....all in all 'when u r in doubt ' : LECAFFFFFF ftw!
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On October 07 2008 20:53 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 20:35 NahLGaE wrote:
gg.
god i hate jd so freaking much. more than anyone else >< Know why people were saying JD would win now? >_>
yeah i mean i knew it wasnt going to be easy but i also didnt think it would be this rape >< thought it was like 60-40 for jd...
best way overreacted to mutas and it was all downhill from there... control like 2 archons with some sair or goon support while protecting/gathering some ht instead of making 4 freaking archons so quickly ~_~
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best way overreacted to mutas and it was all downhill from there... control like 2 archons with some sair or goon support while protecting/gathering some ht instead of making 4 freaking archons so quickly ~_~
The thing is, he didn't know if zerg will continue producing mutas, or will switch to hidras. This time he didn't guess, so he lost. Maybe the next time. That's what zvp imba is all about. You have to make 100 correct guesses to beat a good zerg.
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Jaedong is 25-5 ZvP after losing game 1 to Stork in EVER 07.
Best actually gave him 2 of those 5 losses, but . . .
Jaedong >>>> ( << ) Best.
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plz correct the results 3Lions, theres no sense who won or not...
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Main reason best lost is because he failed his first attack. He had enough to rape the 20 hydralisks or so that came guarding the left expansion, but he was out of position =[
Had he jumped with all archons on the hydra pack they wouldve melted.
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On October 07 2008 20:35 NahLGaE wrote:
gg.
god i hate jd so freaking much. more than anyone else ><
Keep on hating, Jaedong's gonna keep on winning. I think this season's going to be one of his best yet.
Strange that a 마재윤 fan would hate Jaedong so much though. I see him as a natural successor to Savior, the next dominant zerg.
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Can somebody post the final results?
edit: nvm
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
sorry i couldn't post the results till now. I woke up late and didn't get to go on a computer at school.
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Does somebody know where the vod of jaedong vs. best is? I dont think its on youtube T.T
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On October 08 2008 05:10 20Nation wrote:
Does somebody know where the vod of jaedong vs. best is? I dont think its on youtube T.T
it hasn't been posted yeet, wait a few hours
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United States11390 Posts
On October 08 2008 05:10 20Nation wrote:
Does somebody know where the vod of jaedong vs. best is? I dont think its on youtube T.T
It's on Nevake account.
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On October 08 2008 07:03 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 05:10 20Nation wrote:
Does somebody know where the vod of jaedong vs. best is? I dont think its on youtube T.T It's on Nevake account.
thx much
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Man total rape.
It's going to be hard to imagine any team beating Lecaf this season.... their lineup is just fucking on fire. Especially with 2v2s out, I don't see them losing :O
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On October 08 2008 03:04 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 20:35 NahLGaE wrote:
gg.
god i hate jd so freaking much. more than anyone else >< Keep on hating, Jaedong's gonna keep on winning. I think this season's going to be one of his best yet. Strange that a 마재윤 fan would hate Jaedong so much though. I see him as a natural successor to Savior, the next dominant zerg.
well i dunno i started following the pro scene near the end of savior's reign so i mightve hated him as much as i hate jd right now if i started b4 his rise but no the thing is when you watch savior's games/play its so incredibly dominant by the way the comes up with a whole game strategy and implements it while reading his opponent really well to guess and react to what they are doing. his level of play was way beyond anyone else's at his peak and it was just astounding to watch. he revolutionized the game in many ways too, most noticeably of course the standardizing of the 3 hatch build.
jd on the other hand just seems like a really good standard playing, kind of like a zerg version of stork. i used to like jd in the earlier days of his rise when he showed a lot of just good sense and good fighting skills (not just with mutas) but now he's too much just about his really good control winning him games early on (or at least taking a big enough advantage early on to stay ahead). i do admit he has some truly exciting and incredible games also but theyre not the norm. plus i dunno i just hate his attitude or aura for some reason dunno why ><
it's not just about being the next dominant zerg, its not like im a fan of the zerg race in particular, im a toss player anyway, its how he's dominant ;o
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United States12607 Posts
On October 07 2008 22:12 Atrioc wrote:Dancing Jaedong #2 Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 09:53 jwd241224 wrote:
How did Lecaf's matches against T1 go last season? Oh shit...
3-0
3-0
Jaedong will be lucky if his team lasts long enough for him to get owned by BeSt in the fourth set...
/facepalm
Thank god BeSt shouldn't have to play any Zergs this OSL.
Watch out next time Lecaf!
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Wow! Gotta go see how Jaedong owned Best.
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To all of you saying Best made too many archons for Jaedong's muta harrass, we're talking about Jaedong's Mutas here. Not some any Pro zerg. This legend is capable of fully microing 2 control group of mutas as seen in JD vs Hwasin in Othello. If I was a Protoss, I would be scared as shit, his muta micro is exceptional
And from the way things are looking, I don't think any Protoss has any chance against Jaedong's ZvP right now. The one Protoss that I would bet on would be Bisu, and even then...its close to 50/50
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS.
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Those two games where Jaedong sniped like every templar that Bisu made still fucks up.
And man, Lomo TvZ games are entertaining. I kinda wonder how long he'll be able to keep using that wraith build before someone totally shuts it down.
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lol, nvm I just finished watching the Medusa TvZ game he played before this game.
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On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS.
Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game.
This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't.
And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing.
In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless.
Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work.
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On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't?
haha...yea, agreed
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On October 08 2008 15:14 weiliem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't? haha...yea, agreed
...and owned
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On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work.
The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game.
If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back.
If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
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On October 08 2008 19:39 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 15:14 weiliem wrote:On October 07 2008 20:36 Sunyveil wrote:On October 07 2008 20:34 disciple wrote:
fucking gay PvZ map how about jaedong is freaking amazing at ZvP and best isn't? haha...yea, agreed ...and owned
Best's PvZ isn't his best matchup either, but by far better than is ZvP probably.
I think Lecaf did a good job placing their players in a way that SKT1 couldn't do anything about it. Raid Assault 2 is a zerg map, but not as bad as people would like to believe TvZ. Lomo's TvZ is decent, and SKT1 assumed that Jaedong would try to win there. Lecaf realized this and chose to send Jaedong on Destination, which is relatively untested ZvP and Lomo against SKT1's only zerg (who happens to have one decent matchup, ZvZ). It probably won them the match.
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On October 08 2008 20:13 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work. The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game. If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back. If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
Yeah, all true (not sure about the Zerg wins within 10-15 min though).
And Z also needs luck in killing vessels, you can only scourge them if Terran makes the mistake of having his vessels too far away from the M&M (or you sacrifice units by running in and then scourging at the same time, but that's of course a bit costly). If he doesn't do that mistake (and it seems to be happening increasingly rare these days, due to better multitasking), Z will kill almost no vessels and then it's even harder.
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On October 08 2008 20:13 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 14:57 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On October 08 2008 13:17 Februarys wrote:
And I don't see why these Protoss players are whining about PvZ imbalance. Terran is the rigged race imo, extremely cost efficient everything, need 1~2 bases to win BS. Biggest joke (in TvZ) is that T can lose a quite massive group of M&M in mid-game and still Zerg can't really capitalize on that advantage (can't get up ramp since 10 new M&M are already waiting up there). If Zerg loses his army in mid-game it's totally over. So if T makes a mistake and loses his army, the game doesn't end right there, it merely means it'll be a longer game. This also means that Zerg most often loses when both players decide to trade armies or go all-in -- Terran will hold it, Zerg won't. And yes, 2 bases is enough for them to pump out massive armies, then there's the "double scan thanks to FE == essentially unlimited scans" thing, and the "I just lift my CC, you can't touch it anymore, and my workers run to safety automatically" thing, and the "if I have a ramp or 3 bunkers at the choke you'll never get in here except with swarm or ultras, so just fuck off, let me macro tons of stuff, then you try to beat that ball. And if you did beat it, I don't care, I'll do the same thing again" thing. In the end it still works out thanks to the power of dark swarm and ultras, IF the game lasts that long, but man, the matchup is really close to ridiculous. If Zerg doesn't play super careful and adapts extremely well during the first 10 minutes or so, it's over. The M&M lawnmower is relentless. Only time T gets into trouble is if he loses his army during the early game and then a timing attack with mutas or speedlings or lurkers can finish him off "easily", but once he has like 4-5 rax already (and most likely 1-0 upgrade or even higher), he'll just reproduce M&M so fast that no counter attack will really work. The reason why T > Z is Terran can fast expand pump scvs from both CC's, while Zerg struggles like hell to secure a third expansion. Alot of matches are lost because zerg is playing 2 base for most of the game. If zerg happens to miracously gets a third expansion, then they have to face terran ball after terran ball. Since m&m are so cost efficent losing a terran ball doesnt mean auto loss, the terran can easily still come back. If you watch all the TvZ in the last 6 months or so, most of zerg wins have been matches less that 10-15 minutes.
Yes, pumping SCV from both CC is much more efficient than trying to pump drones from several hatcherys while balancing ratio to pump enough fighting units to defend yourself
Its kind of retarded that Zerg needs 3 gas to even compete with Terran who only needs 1~2 bases. Its like saying, you need 3 zealots to be even with his 2 superzealots
When I play a Terran, and if he manages to kill all my lurkers mid-game (marine micro, tank splash, irradiate) I'm pretty fucked at that point. Sure, I'm producing hydras at the moment, but they still need time to morph into lurkers after they spawn. Marines on the other hand, need much less time to make, and they're ready to go once a medic or two comes out.
I kill his m&m army and he managed to make another one by the time I reach his base.
He makes 2~3 bunkers (200~300 minerals) and that lets him be safe until dark swarm comes out.
I need to make about 4 sunkens ( 700 minerals for including drone cost) to be safe from his m&m, and even then, sunkens are rendered useless if he brings tanks
Early game, I make like 30 lings and he blocks his choke with 3 scvs, and has about 9 marines behind them and he's safe, when he obviously shouldn't be due to difference in army strength.
I attack his expo, he lifts up his CC, sorry my base is untouchable
He attacks my expo, goodbye hatchery
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair
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What about PVZ?
What about the fact that if you lose shuttle + 1 or 2 reavers in early-mid game, P is in huge disadvantage. Plus, Protosses have to gues what tech is zerg going to use (muta, hydra all-in, etc.) so has to waste resources on cannons or make more archons and less ht, etc. I agree with above's signature. T>Z>P slight imbalance at pro levels (on noob levels P > all); and P = T, of course its heavily map dependant so its not easy to simplify.
Is there anyway to know complete statistics of recent years on all 3 match-ups? I think it could give us a more accurate insight about this.
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On October 09 2008 02:16 Februarys wrote:
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair
Yeah, but I guess it's really only foreigners and bad players complaining about defilers and ultras, because they all suck at multitasking so that they'll lose lots of M&M.
But on pro level, where Terrans dodge lurks and swarms like it's nothing and preserve almost all of their massive M&M force, you absolutely need these units in ZvT otherwise it would be impossible to win (because a lurk/ling army, no matter how massive, will just melt before a big upgraded Terran ball).
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On October 09 2008 16:19 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 02:16 Februarys wrote:
Alot of Terran players whine about the power of Defiler and Ultra. Yes, they are very useful but they are only in late-game and most games don't last very long, hence you barely get to use them. Zerg is so vulnerable until hive tech kicks in, so getting Defiler/Ultra is like a reward for the Zerg player for surviving that 10~15 minute mark. The fact that we have to try to survive till Ultra/Defiler kicks in makes me feel like ZvT is unfair Yeah, but I guess it's really only foreigners and bad players complaining about defilers and ultras, because they all suck at multitasking so that they'll lose lots of M&M. But on pro level, where Terrans dodge lurks and swarms like it's nothing and preserve almost all of their massive M&M force, you absolutely need these units in ZvT otherwise it would be impossible to win (because a lurk/ling army, no matter how massive, will just melt before a big upgraded Terran ball).
And it's not like Terran doesn't have a certain grossly imbalanced tier 3 unit of its own.
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LOL...
Only ZvP is imba you noobs.
Hydras are the nuts.
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With all due respect, hydras are NOT the nuts.
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Nuts is a Royal Flush draw postflop.
Oh wait, wat?
Skill > imbalance (this used to be in my WGT profile waaaay back when protoss didn't FE, oh fond memories)
P.s.: Best just screwed up, there's no need to whine imba here. And frankly I don't think Destination is that bad for PvZ. It would be a better map imo if the 2nd gas (where LJD built his lair) would be reduced to a min-only, whereas the current min-only (corners) would get the gas instead. My 0.02 (small blind)
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I think the biggest reson T>Z is the maps that hasent been fair to zergs in recent years. There have basically always been one or two graveyard maps for the zerg and it countinous with Plasma this year.
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toss needs to have a corsair combo or it becomes Soooo ez to win
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It's way to few good Zergs around to call any imbalance on that. Jaedong is just supergood, he really is. Most zergs have a pretty shitty record vs Toss, and alot of tosses handles Zergs pretty damn good.
If anything, it's Jaedong who makes the matchup imbalanced, not the races. If you read his latest interview about the win vs best, you can see how fragile everything is for zerg, and how perfect you have to play it.
I'm sure most people think that Luxury for example will have a hard time vs Stork in their proleague match that is upcoming, and most would consider Luxury to be the second best Zerg on the planet.
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On October 09 2008 22:25 Kyuki wrote:
It's way to few good Zergs around to call any imbalance on that. Jaedong is just supergood, he really is. Most zergs have a pretty shitty record vs Toss, and alot of tosses handles Zergs pretty damn good.
Compare the PvZ% of top 5 protoss players (ranked by elo peaks) with the ZvP% of top zerg players of all time and you get:
Stork 52.75% 91 games
Bisu 61.90% 63 games
Nal_Ra 53.04% 115 games
Anytime 57.58% 66 games
Reach 45.16% 155 games
---avg--- 52.2% 490 games
Jaedong 65.08% 63 games
Savior 68.24% 85 games
GoRush 54.55% 66 games
July 66.98% 106 games
Luxury 56.52% 46 games
---avg--- 63.2% 366 games
There are some other protoss with very good PvZ% (Kal, for example), but small the sample size wont affect this average too much. Also, there are more zergs with better ZvP% and more games that I did not add (Chojja, for example).
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ZvT is more messed up. If you check the top ten ZvT by win percentage in the MU thread in the broodwar section. The tenth best ZvT has a win percentage of 39%.
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T>Z is a lie.
love the fact that most people say that terran only needs 1-2 bases, well guess what, its harder to expand with terran than any other race...
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
can't we just all agree Best's PvZ isnt that great and Best is Jaedong's bitch?
I mean even in WCG at game 2 he went lurkers because he wanted to see how affective it was and Best was struggling so hard to even concentrate in that game.
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people complain about anything jeez
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On October 10 2008 00:00 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
people complain about anything jeez
we are only people ^^
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On October 09 2008 23:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
T>Z is a lie.
love the fact that most people say that terran only needs 1-2 bases, well guess what, its harder to expand with terran than any other race...
well who cares if it's harder to expand if you don't need to expand much in the first place?
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On October 10 2008 00:48 heyitsme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 23:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
T>Z is a lie.
love the fact that most people say that terran only needs 1-2 bases, well guess what, its harder to expand with terran than any other race... well who cares if it's harder to expand if you don't need to expand much in the first place?
Statement of Truth. And besides, Zerg expos are so vulnerable until you get Nydus canal, which takes a long time. If you build few sunkens, T army rolls over it. If you build lots of sunkens, Tanks make them useless. If you place the sunkens too far from the minerals, Terran dropship will still fuck up your expo.
Terran expo is completely safe with a few cost efficient bunkers and few tanks until Zerg gets swarm
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On October 09 2008 16:54 EvoChamber wrote:
With all due respect, hydras are NOT the nuts.
lmao.
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