EPTLike venting about balance is stupid enough as it is, but do the complainers genuinely want outsiders to touch the game and completely ruin it? Cuz otherwise it's just venting and you should talk into a tape recorder instead.
[ASL19] Ro24 Group F - Page 5
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
RogerChillingworth
Chad3065 Posts
Like venting about balance is stupid enough as it is, but do the complainers genuinely want outsiders to touch the game and completely ruin it? Cuz otherwise it's just venting and you should talk into a tape recorder instead. | ||
|
TMNT
3015 Posts
On April 03 2025 07:05 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Bro dismissed a great comeback play and started balance whine out of nowhere lmao. A comeback made possible because of balance issue in the matchup. It's not totally out of nowhere. I find it absurd that after a Hydra bust opening Zerg can still play the game out fairly square against Protoss. Like if after such opening and Protoss is ahead but the Zerg does some cheeky drops, Templar snipe or catches the Protoss off guard with some clutch Defiler play to flip the game in his favor, then fair enough. But in this case Action just went into a defensive stance and grinded the game out until Zerg intrinsically became stronger than Protoss. If you can state a reverse scenario in the matchup for Protoss I'd be happy to concede I'm wrong. | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On April 03 2025 15:53 TMNT wrote: A comeback made possible because of balance issue in the matchup. It's not totally out of nowhere. I find it absurd that after a Hydra bust opening Zerg can still play the game out fairly square against Protoss. Like if after such opening and Protoss is ahead but the Zerg does some cheeky drops, Templar snipe or catches the Protoss off guard with some clutch Defiler play to flip the game in his favor, then fair enough. But in this case Action just went into a defensive stance and grinded the game out until Zerg intrinsically became stronger than Protoss. If you can state a reverse scenario in the matchup for Protoss I'd be happy to concede I'm wrong. Action is maybe the best macro zerg player in the world and YSC is nowhere close to be the best Protoss out there. All matchups are damn close to 50% win rates at top level. Each race has its advantages and its disadvantages, and stuff that are absolutely disgusting, but complaining about imbalance in SC:BW is pretty absurd. Some amazing games here though. That last one was insane. | ||
|
sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On April 03 2025 22:45 Biff The Understudy wrote: Action is maybe the best macro zerg player in the world and YSC is nowhere close to be the best Protoss out there. All matchups are damn close to 50% win rates at top level. Each race has its advantages and its disadvantages, and stuff that are absolutely disgusting, but complaining about imbalance in SC:BW is pretty absurd. Some amazing games here though. That last one was insane. unfortunately this doesn't matter for him  i mean even if Soulkey win against a B rank protoss probably he will even found something, about the balance and will say matchup broken lol. He at least just toxic in sc scene already 2 years and try to explain things which is only exist in his mind. | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On April 04 2025 00:42 sas.Sziky wrote: unfortunately this doesn't matter for him i mean even if Soulkey win against a B rank protoss probably he will even found something, about the balance and will say matchup broken lol. He at least just toxic in sc scene already 2 years and try to explain t hings which is only exist in his mind.It’s just, balance at top level is the easiest thing to measure: you compare with rate between top players. If it’s roughly 50% you are in good shape and that’s it. It am I missing something? | ||
|
sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On April 04 2025 05:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: It’s just, balance at top level is the easiest thing to measure: you compare with rate between top players. If it’s roughly 50% you are in good shape and that’s it. It am I missing something? well you are right + More pros Flash, Jaedong, Mini already said skill, practice which counts, not the race but people like TMNT think he is smarter and better than even pros. | ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
| ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
On April 02 2025 21:18 TMNT wrote: Sigh.Tulbo is obviously one tier below Action but games that pan out like this is the reason why PvZ remains the most broken matchup. Zerg opens with a tool who can kill Protoss immediately. Protoss holds, but still is not ahead. Zerg turtles up. 4 base Protoss is supposed to be favored against 4 base Zerg, but still can not kill Zerg. Protoss denies Zerg at one corner, then another corner, it still expands at the other. Then we get 6 base Protoss vs 6 base Zerg, which actually favors Zerg because all the right Protoss units can't be at the right place at the right time every time, while Zerg can. It's the only matchup in the game where the less mobile but stronger army is not ahead of the more mobile weaker army when both are on the same economy. Yeah tbh Protoss feels weaker at every stage of the game in PvZ. Pretty absurd. Lurker, sunken, scourge, spore stops entire protoss armies while cannon/reaver is overwhelmed by 24 lings. So the army is worse and the defensive set up is worse. | ||
|
TMNT
3015 Posts
On April 04 2025 05:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: It’s just, balance at top level is the easiest thing to measure: you compare with rate between top players. If it’s roughly 50% you are in good shape and that’s it. It am I missing something? Tbh balance at the top level can't just be measured easily just by win rate, but let's say it's true for the sake of your argument, then PvZ is at 47.5% and ZvT is at 44.9% for now (source), so unless that is your "roughly 50%" I'm afraid it is not balanced. And I'm pretty sure with the amount of sample size there (20k games) you can do every sort of stats test and it will tell you the differences to 50% from such values are statistically significant. The funny thing is I complained about that ZvT win rate too but our guy Sziky here never popped up to say I'm toxic though. On April 04 2025 05:43 sas.Sziky wrote: Care to put a source as to when JD and Mini said so?well you are right + More pros Flash, Jaedong, Mini already said skill, practice which counts, not the race but people like TMNT think he is smarter and better than even pros. But even if the game is not balanced it can be overcome by skills and practice. Are you not intelligent enough to comprehend both things can coexist? As pros they have to say so, instead of moaning. But talk about moaning, then by your logic I can cite some Stork's quotes about PvZ to enlighten you. Are you smarter and better than Stork? It's funny because even in the Flash's video when he defended against Tesagi, he said the maps back then was designed in favor of Terran (effectively acknowledging that the game is not balanced on those maps), but Savior overcame that difficulty by skills. But imba it still is. | ||
|
G5
United States2917 Posts
On April 04 2025 06:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Yeah tbh Protoss feels weaker at every stage of the game in PvZ. Pretty absurd. Lurker, sunken, scourge, spore stops entire protoss armies while cannon/reaver is overwhelmed by 24 lings. So the army is worse and the defensive set up is worse. Pretty accurate. What's crazy though is PvZ is easier and better for Protoss now than it ever has been and it somehow still feels that way. | ||
|
Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
| ||
|
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1011 Posts
On April 04 2025 07:35 TMNT wrote: Tbh balance at the top level can't just be measured easily just by win rate, but let's say it's true for the sake of your argument, then PvZ is at 47.5% and ZvT is at 44.9% for now (source), so unless that is your "roughly 50%" I'm afraid it is not balanced. And I'm pretty sure with the amount of sample size there (20k games) you can do every sort of stats test and it will tell you the differences to 50% from such values are statistically significant. The funny thing is I complained about that ZvT win rate too but our guy Sziky here never popped up to say I'm toxic though. Care to put a source as to when JD and Mini said so? But even if the game is not balanced it can be overcome by skills and practice. Are you not intelligent enough to comprehend both things can coexist? As pros they have to say so, instead of moaning. But talk about moaning, then by your logic I can cite some Stork's quotes about PvZ to enlighten you. Are you smarter and better than Stork? It's funny because even in the Flash's video when he defended against Tesagi, he said the maps back then was designed in favor of Terran (effectively acknowledging that the game is not balanced on those maps), but Savior overcame that difficulty by skills. But imba it still is. I actually think Savior was more a champion because his competition was behind in game knowledge and less his skills. He figured out a way to play zerg that became irrelevant shortly after Bisu countered it. And after that he never got top placings again because he lacked the skills to adapt to the meta. He fell off harder than shuttle after shuttle won ASL1. He won some blizzcon invitationals which had lineups of players all way past their prime. They dont even count as premiers in my book. Still I respect his championship wins. | ||
|
sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On April 04 2025 07:35 TMNT wrote: Tbh balance at the top level can't just be measured easily just by win rate, but let's say it's true for the sake of your argument, then PvZ is at 47.5% and ZvT is at 44.9% for now (source), so unless that is your "roughly 50%" I'm afraid it is not balanced. And I'm pretty sure with the amount of sample size there (20k games) you can do every sort of stats test and it will tell you the differences to 50% from such values are statistically significant. The funny thing is I complained about that ZvT win rate too but our guy Sziky here never popped up to say I'm toxic though. Care to put a source as to when JD and Mini said so? But even if the game is not balanced it can be overcome by skills and practice. Are you not intelligent enough to comprehend both things can coexist? As pros they have to say so, instead of moaning. But talk about moaning, then by your logic I can cite some Stork's quotes about PvZ to enlighten you. Are you smarter and better than Stork? It's funny because even in the Flash's video when he defended against Tesagi, he said the maps back then was designed in favor of Terran (effectively acknowledging that the game is not balanced on those maps), but Savior overcame that difficulty by skills. But imba it still is. it was Mini https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/578700-mini-interview-with-bonyth. if u put the Stork then ''Zerg's Doomed Future'' (Ft. SoulKey, Calm, ggaemo) . From Jaedong just write on youtobe on his name or Jinjin chanel and u will Find 10 interview. Well maybe i am not intelligent but at least did something in SC do you did something? i mean without toxic and statistic and talking non stop about the balance please answer. | ||
|
TMNT
3015 Posts
On April 04 2025 18:09 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I actually think Savior was more a champion because his competition was behind in game knowledge and less his skills. He figured out a way to play zerg that became irrelevant shortly after Bisu countered it. And after that he never got top placings again because he lacked the skills to adapt to the meta. He fell off harder than shuttle after shuttle won ASL1. He won some blizzcon invitationals which had lineups of players all way past their prime. They dont even count as premiers in my book. Still I respect his championship wins. That is probably true but I think when Flash said skills he included game knowledge in it too, not just pure mechanics or whatever it means. It's funny because in the jinjin's video of Soma analysing Bisu revolution he described Savior strategy back then and it sounds so outdated to the meta nowadays almost to the point it feels like a noob build. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25970 Posts
On April 04 2025 18:09 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I actually think Savior was more a champion because his competition was behind in game knowledge and less his skills. He figured out a way to play zerg that became irrelevant shortly after Bisu countered it. And after that he never got top placings again because he lacked the skills to adapt to the meta. He fell off harder than shuttle after shuttle won ASL1. He won some blizzcon invitationals which had lineups of players all way past their prime. They dont even count as premiers in my book. Still I respect his championship wins. He fell off across the board though, not just in PvZ. And it’s not as if ‘just play like Bisu’ was something all his Protoss peers could immediately just emulate in that matchup. Given what subsequently happened, I think it’s reasonable to presume he lost that motivation to stay at the top, and it was more that than his skills that were the problem. You’ve got a new generation emerging who are raising the mechanical bar too, and one of them has just smashed him in Bisu, so yeah there probably isn’t any timeline where Savior maintains that level of dominance he had. Equally plenty of his peers who he massively outperformed in his heyday kept up being relevant, top-tier players even with the attrition and influx of new talent, so I don’t see why Savior couldn’t have. Although as we say in my country ‘If my aunty had balls she’d be my uncle.’ so it’s all moot now of course! | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25970 Posts
On April 04 2025 19:03 TMNT wrote: That is probably true but I think when Flash said skills he included game knowledge in it too, not just pure mechanics or whatever it means. It's funny because in the jinjin's video of Soma analysing Bisu revolution he described Savior strategy back then and it sounds so outdated to the meta nowadays almost to the point it feels like a noob build. I imagine Flash includes the whole package there when he refers to ‘skills’, certainly his peers do when talking about Flash. As good as he is mechanically, it’s his star sense and decision-making they seem to really fear and respect. If he’s behind, you might be at best even unless you play perfectly, because he’ll plot the best course of recovery. If he’s ahead, good luck with that. Yeah that Soma vid was a good watch. I think he was pretty fair as well, he also kept stressing ‘yeah it might sound like I’m being critical but remember it’s 2007’ etc to balance things out a bit Speaking of Soma, he still away in military or did he just not qualify this time around? Think it’d be a great arc to have the relative outsider take an ASL! | ||
|
goody153
44228 Posts
With two zergs in surviving the group that means 4 zergs on the r16 at least ? | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4225 Posts
On April 04 2025 20:46 goody153 wrote: The SSak games are interesting feels bad he didnt make it. That canon rush game was also pretty telegraphed With two zergs in surviving the group that means 4 zergs on the r16 at least ? Ro16 will consist of: - 5P players - 6T players - 5Z players | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey618 Posts
On April 02 2025 21:18 TMNT wrote: Sigh.Tulbo is obviously one tier below Action but games that pan out like this is the reason why PvZ remains the most broken matchup. Zerg opens with a tool who can kill Protoss immediately. Protoss holds, but still is not ahead. Zerg turtles up. 4 base Protoss is supposed to be favored against 4 base Zerg, but still can not kill Zerg. Protoss denies Zerg at one corner, then another corner, it still expands at the other. Then we get 6 base Protoss vs 6 base Zerg, which actually favors Zerg because all the right Protoss units can't be at the right place at the right time every time, while Zerg can. It's the only matchup in the game where the less mobile but stronger army is not ahead of the more mobile weaker army when both are on the same economy. I think it is the other way around. You have to play this way as Protoss in order to score a win. If you compare group F games with group D, Bisu made the absolute minimum number of Dragoons in group D. That is the key difference in my opinion. Every zealot instead of dragoon is 25/50 saved. Do it for 6 times, you have an Archon and 6 Zealots plus an Archon double what 6 Dragoons can do. He had the right idea until he forgot the upgrade, but I think we are back on track where we left of PvZ in 2000s. I will say it again: there is no part of the game protoss is behind if they push correctly. | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey618 Posts
On April 02 2025 21:39 Peeano wrote: Who woulda thought on the final game of group F we'd get a treat like this. Action is sooo good. From the longest 2 base all in still managing to secure a 3rd and 4th through sheer better multitasking. I think we are past this current nonsense FE play. Both Hero and Action showed early zerg can stick to two base. This is what I argued, also. Bases are a huge expense with no checks if you will have to defend against early game skirmishes which turn them into deficit spending investments. I think I hit the nail on the head with that one. I might pursue further where the deadline shifts happen when expanding bases. For instance, I thought extractor trick didn't do much, but in fact nets as much as 16 seconds. It might come across as I'm hopeful, but I'm actually hesitant. The game was zerg unfavoured back in 2000s when FEs weren't the norm. This will favour terrans and protosses more than the zerg. | ||
| ||
