[ASL19] Ro24 Group F

On April 02 2025 15:07 Zergxhx wrote:
Probably the heaviest group.

On April 02 2025 15:33 TornadoSteve wrote:


How.

On April 02 2025 15:33 TornadoSteve wrote:


How.

On April 02 2025 21:05 Simplistik wrote:
YSC is actually pretty good at PvZ.

On April 02 2025 21:36 Giovanni8 wrote:
Ssak spent 5 Min going up and down in the middle of the map doing nothing....nonsense. What a waste

On April 02 2025 21:05 Simplistik wrote:
YSC is actually pretty good at PvZ.

On April 02 2025 21:36 HOLYBATS wrote:
Great games today. Congrats Hero & Action.

On April 02 2025 21:39 Zografa wrote:
ro16 draw now or later?

On April 02 2025 21:26 GTR wrote:
action has lost like 50 lurkers that were running while unburrowed this game lol

On April 02 2025 21:39 Zografa wrote:
ro16 draw now or later?

On April 02 2025 21:37 konadora wrote:

yeah forfeiting his nat's economy to go for a non-existent base without scouting properly... really gave some room for Action to comeback

Ssak played this entire game as if he was playing to not lose

On April 02 2025 21:18 TMNT wrote:
Sigh.Tulbo is obviously one tier below Action but games that pan out like this is the reason why PvZ remains the most broken matchup.

Zerg opens with a tool who can kill Protoss immediately. Protoss holds, but still is not ahead. Zerg turtles up. 4 base Protoss is supposed to be favored against 4 base Zerg, but still can not kill Zerg. Protoss denies Zerg at one corner, then another corner, it still expands at the other. Then we get 6 base Protoss vs 6 base Zerg, which actually favors Zerg because all the right Protoss units can't be at the right place at the right time every time, while Zerg can.

It's the only matchup in the game where the less mobile but stronger army is not ahead of the more mobile weaker army when both are on the same economy.

On April 02 2025 21:39 konadora wrote:

a lot of non-qualified players say he's pretty decent and actually seems to help him a lot for his individual leagues, and he always has some really interesting builds, but jesus sometimes he just fumbles so hard and does some really stupid shit lol

On April 02 2025 22:29 Simplistik wrote:

Can't deny that. He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct when the games go long. Maybe he gets tired?

On April 02 2025 21:46 SCRVN wrote:

Just replace Protoss to Terran you will see an amazing thing. It's still right at all!

It takes 27 years to everyone knows StarCraft is not balance game and Zerg is the best race in all matchup, all stage in the game.

On April 02 2025 22:29 Simplistik wrote:

Can't deny that. He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct when the games go long. Maybe he gets tired?

On April 02 2025 22:59 TMNT wrote:

But YSC didn't fumble this game did he? Didn't do any stupid shit, didn't throw away army, decent storms, kept trying to deny Zerg expansion while expanding himself, good reactions to Zerg's shenanigans. I think he played a standard, solid game. But playing solid doesn't win you games vs late game turtle Zerg. You have to play amazingly.

The only big criticism is probably the late transition to Reaver. 2 Reavers during that big attack to top right would seal the game for him, perhaps.

On April 02 2025 22:44 WombaT wrote:

Was he the guy who threw a basically won game by losing a shuttle full of reavery goodness to a missile turret?

I guess it’s just hard enough stepping up on stage, and mentally even tougher if you’ve had a few rough ones.

I imagine adrenaline can carry you pretty far too, but perhaps in a long game your mentality shifts a bit from doing your plan and trying to win, versus trying not to lose or throw.

On April 03 2025 03:21 sas.Sziky wrote:
i was happy after the first few groups where no Zerg advance (there was no talk of balance ). But after of course when Zergs advancing the statistic and analysis king (TMNT) starts again talking of balance. But he still doesn't understand SC so shame t.t

On April 03 2025 03:21 sas.Sziky wrote:
i was happy after the first few groups where no Zerg advance (there was no talk of balance ). But after of course when Zergs advancing the statistic and analysis king (TMNT) starts again talking of balance. But he still doesn't understand SC so shame t.t

On April 02 2025 21:18 TMNT wrote:
Sigh.Tulbo is obviously one tier below Action but games that pan out like this is the reason why PvZ remains the most broken matchup.

Zerg opens with a tool who can kill Protoss immediately. Protoss holds, but still is not ahead. Zerg turtles up. 4 base Protoss is supposed to be favored against 4 base Zerg, but still can not kill Zerg. Protoss denies Zerg at one corner, then another corner, it still expands at the other. Then we get 6 base Protoss vs 6 base Zerg, which actually favors Zerg because all the right Protoss units can't be at the right place at the right time every time, while Zerg can.

It's the only matchup in the game where the less mobile but stronger army is not ahead of the more mobile weaker army when both are on the same economy.

On April 03 2025 08:20 TornadoSteve wrote:
Guys, look at this 16 players list lol. Go Scan&barracks!

On April 03 2025 07:05 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:


Bro dismissed a great comeback play and started balance whine out of nowhere lmao.

On April 03 2025 15:53 TMNT wrote:

A comeback made possible because of balance issue in the matchup.

It's not totally out of nowhere. I find it absurd that after a Hydra bust opening Zerg can still play the game out fairly square against Protoss. Like if after such opening and Protoss is ahead but the Zerg does some cheeky drops, Templar snipe or catches the Protoss off guard with some clutch Defiler play to flip the game in his favor, then fair enough. But in this case Action just went into a defensive stance and grinded the game out until Zerg intrinsically became stronger than Protoss. If you can state a reverse scenario in the matchup for Protoss I'd be happy to concede I'm wrong.

On April 03 2025 22:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:

Action is maybe the best macro zerg player in the world and YSC is nowhere close to be the best Protoss out there.
All matchups are damn close to 50% win rates at top level. Each race has its advantages and its disadvantages, and stuff that are absolutely disgusting, but complaining about imbalance in SC:BW is pretty absurd.

Some amazing games here though. That last one was insane.

On April 04 2025 00:42 sas.Sziky wrote:


unfortunately this doesn't matter for him i mean even if Soulkey win against a B rank protoss probably he will even found something, about the balance and will say matchup broken lol. He at least just toxic in sc scene already 2 years and try to explain t hings which is only exist in his mind.

On April 04 2025 05:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:

It’s just, balance at top level is the easiest thing to measure: you compare with rate between top players. If it’s roughly 50% you are in good shape and that’s it. It am I missing something?

On April 04 2025 05:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s just, balance at top level is the easiest thing to measure: you compare with rate between top players. If it’s roughly 50% you are in good shape and that’s it. It am I missing something?

On April 04 2025 05:43 sas.Sziky wrote:
well you are right + More pros Flash, Jaedong, Mini already said skill, practice which counts, not the race but people like TMNT think he is smarter and better than even pros.

On April 04 2025 06:31 Vasoline73 wrote:

Yeah tbh Protoss feels weaker at every stage of the game in PvZ. Pretty absurd.

Lurker, sunken, scourge, spore stops entire protoss armies while cannon/reaver is overwhelmed by 24 lings. So the army is worse and the defensive set up is worse.

On April 04 2025 07:35 TMNT wrote:

Tbh balance at the top level can't just be measured easily just by win rate, but let's say it's true for the sake of your argument, then PvZ is at 47.5% and ZvT is at 44.9% for now (source), so unless that is your "roughly 50%" I'm afraid it is not balanced. And I'm pretty sure with the amount of sample size there (20k games) you can do every sort of stats test and it will tell you the differences to 50% from such values are statistically significant.

The funny thing is I complained about that ZvT win rate too but our guy Sziky here never popped up to say I'm toxic though.


Care to put a source as to when JD and Mini said so?

But even if the game is not balanced it can be overcome by skills and practice. Are you not intelligent enough to comprehend both things can coexist? As pros they have to say so, instead of moaning. But talk about moaning, then by your logic I can cite some Stork's quotes about PvZ to enlighten you. Are you smarter and better than Stork?

It's funny because even in the Flash's video when he defended against Tesagi, he said the maps back then was designed in favor of Terran (effectively acknowledging that the game is not balanced on those maps), but Savior overcame that difficulty by skills. But imba it still is.

On April 04 2025 07:35 TMNT wrote:

Tbh balance at the top level can't just be measured easily just by win rate, but let's say it's true for the sake of your argument, then PvZ is at 47.5% and ZvT is at 44.9% for now (source), so unless that is your "roughly 50%" I'm afraid it is not balanced. And I'm pretty sure with the amount of sample size there (20k games) you can do every sort of stats test and it will tell you the differences to 50% from such values are statistically significant.

The funny thing is I complained about that ZvT win rate too but our guy Sziky here never popped up to say I'm toxic though.


Care to put a source as to when JD and Mini said so?

But even if the game is not balanced it can be overcome by skills and practice. Are you not intelligent enough to comprehend both things can coexist? As pros they have to say so, instead of moaning. But talk about moaning, then by your logic I can cite some Stork's quotes about PvZ to enlighten you. Are you smarter and better than Stork?

It's funny because even in the Flash's video when he defended against Tesagi, he said the maps back then was designed in favor of Terran (effectively acknowledging that the game is not balanced on those maps), but Savior overcame that difficulty by skills. But imba it still is.

On April 04 2025 18:09 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


I actually think Savior was more a champion because his competition was behind in game knowledge and less his skills. He figured out a way to play zerg that became irrelevant shortly after Bisu countered it. And after that he never got top placings again because he lacked the skills to adapt to the meta. He fell off harder than shuttle after shuttle won ASL1. He won some blizzcon invitationals which had lineups of players all way past their prime. They dont even count as premiers in my book. Still I respect his championship wins.

On April 04 2025 18:09 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


I actually think Savior was more a champion because his competition was behind in game knowledge and less his skills. He figured out a way to play zerg that became irrelevant shortly after Bisu countered it. And after that he never got top placings again because he lacked the skills to adapt to the meta. He fell off harder than shuttle after shuttle won ASL1. He won some blizzcon invitationals which had lineups of players all way past their prime. They dont even count as premiers in my book. Still I respect his championship wins.

On April 04 2025 19:03 TMNT wrote:

That is probably true but I think when Flash said skills he included game knowledge in it too, not just pure mechanics or whatever it means.

It's funny because in the jinjin's video of Soma analysing Bisu revolution he described Savior strategy back then and it sounds so outdated to the meta nowadays almost to the point it feels like a noob build.

On April 04 2025 20:46 goody153 wrote:
The SSak games are interesting feels bad he didnt make it. That canon rush game was also pretty telegraphed

With two zergs in surviving the group that means 4 zergs on the r16 at least ?

On April 02 2025 21:18 TMNT wrote:
Sigh.Tulbo is obviously one tier below Action but games that pan out like this is the reason why PvZ remains the most broken matchup.

Zerg opens with a tool who can kill Protoss immediately. Protoss holds, but still is not ahead. Zerg turtles up. 4 base Protoss is supposed to be favored against 4 base Zerg, but still can not kill Zerg. Protoss denies Zerg at one corner, then another corner, it still expands at the other. Then we get 6 base Protoss vs 6 base Zerg, which actually favors Zerg because all the right Protoss units can't be at the right place at the right time every time, while Zerg can.

It's the only matchup in the game where the less mobile but stronger army is not ahead of the more mobile weaker army when both are on the same economy.

On April 02 2025 21:39 Peeano wrote:
Who woulda thought on the final game of group F we'd get a treat like this.
Action is sooo good. From the longest 2 base all in still managing to secure a 3rd and 4th through sheer better multitasking.

On April 04 2025 05:43 sas.Sziky wrote:well you are right + More pros Flash, Jaedong, Mini already said skill, practice which counts, not the race but people like TMNT think he is smarter and better than even pros.

On April 05 2025 00:13 SCRVN wrote:

I think you are so naive, they (pros and some good foreign players) lied to us!

FlaSh: everything is skill
Jaedong: practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future
Mini: ?

Sure, we will improve a bit but we never go through our limit, our race (Terran, Protoss). At highest level, it's always P < T < Z. From 1999 to 2019, Terran has some genius players like Boxer, Nada, FlaSh and map makers were fan of Terran who helped their idols by maps. That's why Terran can beat Zerg.

From 2019 to 3019, the time players' skill reach human's limit, Zerg always wins at the last games because Zerg is stronger than P, T.

So sad but true, we have to admit that StarCraft is not perfect like the life that we are living now and future.

On April 03 2025 07:05 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Bro dismissed a great comeback play and started balance whine out of nowhere lmao.

On April 04 2025 23:59 mtcn77 wrote:

I think we are past this current nonsense FE play.
Both Hero and Action showed early zerg can stick to two base. This is what I argued, also. Bases are a huge expense with no checks if you will have to defend against early game skirmishes which turn them into deficit spending investments. I think I hit the nail on the head with that one. I might pursue further where the deadline shifts happen when expanding bases. For instance, I thought extractor trick didn't do much, but in fact nets as much as 16 seconds.
It might come across as I'm hopeful, but I'm actually hesitant. The game was zerg unfavoured back in 2000s when FEs weren't the norm. This will favour terrans and protosses more than the zerg.

On April 05 2025 01:21 WombaT wrote:

What on Earth are you talking about?

Players still FE-d in those games.

Action only stayed in the game against sSak because sSak did a huge move-out to snipe a non-existent third and Action sniped a fuckton of his SCVs and forced a natural lift.

Just bizarre analysis

On April 02 2025 21:01 Giovanni8 wrote:
Ysc deserved my respect.

On April 09 2025 03:08 Artas1984 wrote:


He will not get my respect coming to the studio with that ridiculous gay ass pinky Ken shirt instead of proper ASL sports jacket and wearing slippers, instead of sport shoes. I would ban his ass from the studio if i was the organizer/host or main sponsor for disrespecting the dress code like that. The same with Shuttle.

User was warned for this post.

On April 09 2025 03:08 Artas1984 wrote:


He will not get my respect coming to the studio with that ridiculous gay ass pinky Ken shirt instead of proper ASL sports jacket and wearing slippers, instead of sport shoes. I would ban his ass from the studio if i was the organizer/host or main sponsor for disrespecting the dress code like that. The same with Shuttle.

User was warned for this post.