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On March 24 2025 23:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2025 21:44 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 21:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
The quality of those games were subASL level, to say the least Because players aren't as focused on the game as before. Shuttle and Clam both spending more time with SC universities than playing BW. Shuttle is even involved in that excel dancing shit. And for as much as everyone, notably Artosis, will be pushing for the narrative that Scan has been grinding hard for this day, the truth is for a year or so now he has spent increasingly time on coaching at YB (Sea's university) and less on actually playing BW. Scan did in fact grind a fair bit so Artosis would not be wrong. Talk to him on a daily basis. It is possible to do a lot of University activities and also practice a good amount. Shuttle also put in a good amount of games but cant say much about whether he was super dilligent about his practice. But it was more than he did for the last three times he qualified. Calm on the other hand played less for a far as I know. But even then, back when Calm played a lot more Scan was still winning like 80% of his TvZ vs Calm, albeit in online play. I legit think you are down playing pros and their activity and drive way too much. Xun was doing the same on stream and I very very much disagree with it because often times its just not an actual reflection of reality. For example Xun said pros play way less serious online, even though that is where they actually make a living. Proleagues, KcM, Ultimate battles and the Chinese sponsored battles and the Soop series has the pros playing their very best most of the time. Plus they are in their comfort zone of their own homes with their own chairs and setup. I will argue pros play worse offline on average than online. While yea, ASL has the most prestige, it does not mean players are able to play their very best on stage everytime they are on stage.
But Proleague activity has been down for a year or so. Same goes for sponmatches. KCM is a 8-week tournament, 3 times a year, in which only 3 players join a week.
I don't count laddering as serious practice, let alone the amount of ladder activity each one has.
Chinese UB are almost exclusively for top 10 players or so.
You can't say they are spending a lot of time with other stuff and still spending as much time playing BW as before.
If you say Barracks has been grinding, I can see it because the only thing he does when turning on his stream is playing, be it ladder, spons, proleagues... He's never joined a university, he doesn't play UMS, he doesn't play LOL, he doesn't coach, he doesn't do variety streaming. Same goes for Speed (except that he did some uni stuff too).
When you turn on Shuttle's stream, you see him acting as host for excel dancing, playing various games, joining in a plethora of C9's activities,... Even if he puts on a few weeks of focus on BW and 100 ladder games (which as I said doesn't count as serious practice anyway), it doesn't erase the months before that when he was doing all kinds of variety streaming.
Similarly, if Scan is doing more YB's activities now, it means he can't play as much as he used to before (or maybe he didn't play as much before joining those universities anyway) .
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On March 24 2025 23:30 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2025 23:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On March 24 2025 21:44 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 21:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
The quality of those games were subASL level, to say the least Because players aren't as focused on the game as before. Shuttle and Clam both spending more time with SC universities than playing BW. Shuttle is even involved in that excel dancing shit. And for as much as everyone, notably Artosis, will be pushing for the narrative that Scan has been grinding hard for this day, the truth is for a year or so now he has spent increasingly time on coaching at YB (Sea's university) and less on actually playing BW. Scan did in fact grind a fair bit so Artosis would not be wrong. Talk to him on a daily basis. It is possible to do a lot of University activities and also practice a good amount. Shuttle also put in a good amount of games but cant say much about whether he was super dilligent about his practice. But it was more than he did for the last three times he qualified. Calm on the other hand played less for a far as I know. But even then, back when Calm played a lot more Scan was still winning like 80% of his TvZ vs Calm, albeit in online play. I legit think you are down playing pros and their activity and drive way too much. Xun was doing the same on stream and I very very much disagree with it because often times its just not an actual reflection of reality. For example Xun said pros play way less serious online, even though that is where they actually make a living. Proleagues, KcM, Ultimate battles and the Chinese sponsored battles and the Soop series has the pros playing their very best most of the time. Plus they are in their comfort zone of their own homes with their own chairs and setup. I will argue pros play worse offline on average than online. While yea, ASL has the most prestige, it does not mean players are able to play their very best on stage everytime they are on stage. But Proleague activity has been down for a year or so. Same goes for sponmatches. KCM is a 8-week tournament, 3 times a year, in which only 3 players join a week. I don't count laddering as serious practice, let alone the amount of ladder activity each one has. Chinese UB are almost exclusively for top 10 players or so. You can't say they are spending a lot of time with other stuff and still spending as much time playing BW as before. If you say Barracks has been grinding, I can see it because the only thing he does when turning on his stream is playing, be it ladder, spons, proleagues... He's never joined a university, he doesn't play UMS, he doesn't play LOL, he doesn't coach, he doesn't do variety streaming. When you turn on Shuttle's stream, you see him acting as host for excel dancing, playing various games, joining in a plethora of C9's activities,... Even if he puts on a few weeks of focus on BW and 100 ladder games (which as I said doesn't count as serious practice anyway), it doesn't erase the months before that when he was doing all kinds of variety streaming. Similarly, if Scan is doing more YB's activities now, it means he can't play as much as he used to before.
Players play outside of streaming too. UMS setting private games which dont appear on match history. Most of their practice is done like this. Proleague activity for sure has decreased, and its in part because of the chinese spons being so frequent taking some of the top players out of the proleagues. And dont get me started on proleagues and spons. I have literally thrown multiple thousands of dollars at them and have my finger on the pulse to keep track. I legit think you are not giving enough credit to the players and their efforts, and you are not the only person on TL that down plays it.
I have also made the argument before, and this is also something pros know. Quantity is way less important than quality. Quality practice is way different than grinding out quantity for the sake of grinding out max number of games. Pros also discuss game theory with one another and analyze the gameplay of their contemporaries, something that happens outside of playing matches but is still essential for improvement. Things like watching the VODs of a top players and deciphering conceptual theory behind the play for their own implementation.
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Netherlands5211 Posts
Tbh I didn't think Shuttle wouldn't knock out Scan after that terrrrible start. Good job by Scan being mentally resilient and letting Shuttle throw his lead. As for Calm I'm surprised he got a win at all. When a progamer's worker transfer is off when nothing else significant is happening, it's a huge tell they're in bad shape...
But in Calm's defense I can't recall one game where his mechanics looked good.
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United States10276 Posts
Wow, what bangers of games in this group. Scan played incredible, even in his loss against Mini, he microed really well in the early game and had incredible game sense in that last game against Calm. Super excited for him.
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On March 24 2025 23:43 Peeano wrote:
Tbh I didn't think Shuttle wouldn't knock out Scan after that terrrrible start. Good job by Scan being mentally resilient and letting Shuttle throw his lead. As for Calm I'm surprised he got a win at all. When a progamer's worker transfer is off when nothing else significant is happening, it's a huge tell they're in bad shape...
But in Calm's defense I can't recall one game where his mechanics looked good.
That is calm his problem regardless of his activity level and has been for the past 8 years. His mechanics have not looked to be on par with every single other zerg play at the pro level. He has to rely more on knowledge, and smart and tricky play.
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Has anyone bet on Scan on LB ??
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On March 24 2025 23:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2025 23:30 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 23:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On March 24 2025 21:44 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 21:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
The quality of those games were subASL level, to say the least Because players aren't as focused on the game as before. Shuttle and Clam both spending more time with SC universities than playing BW. Shuttle is even involved in that excel dancing shit. And for as much as everyone, notably Artosis, will be pushing for the narrative that Scan has been grinding hard for this day, the truth is for a year or so now he has spent increasingly time on coaching at YB (Sea's university) and less on actually playing BW. Scan did in fact grind a fair bit so Artosis would not be wrong. Talk to him on a daily basis. It is possible to do a lot of University activities and also practice a good amount. Shuttle also put in a good amount of games but cant say much about whether he was super dilligent about his practice. But it was more than he did for the last three times he qualified. Calm on the other hand played less for a far as I know. But even then, back when Calm played a lot more Scan was still winning like 80% of his TvZ vs Calm, albeit in online play. I legit think you are down playing pros and their activity and drive way too much. Xun was doing the same on stream and I very very much disagree with it because often times its just not an actual reflection of reality. For example Xun said pros play way less serious online, even though that is where they actually make a living. Proleagues, KcM, Ultimate battles and the Chinese sponsored battles and the Soop series has the pros playing their very best most of the time. Plus they are in their comfort zone of their own homes with their own chairs and setup. I will argue pros play worse offline on average than online. While yea, ASL has the most prestige, it does not mean players are able to play their very best on stage everytime they are on stage. But Proleague activity has been down for a year or so. Same goes for sponmatches. KCM is a 8-week tournament, 3 times a year, in which only 3 players join a week. I don't count laddering as serious practice, let alone the amount of ladder activity each one has. Chinese UB are almost exclusively for top 10 players or so. You can't say they are spending a lot of time with other stuff and still spending as much time playing BW as before. If you say Barracks has been grinding, I can see it because the only thing he does when turning on his stream is playing, be it ladder, spons, proleagues... He's never joined a university, he doesn't play UMS, he doesn't play LOL, he doesn't coach, he doesn't do variety streaming. When you turn on Shuttle's stream, you see him acting as host for excel dancing, playing various games, joining in a plethora of C9's activities,... Even if he puts on a few weeks of focus on BW and 100 ladder games (which as I said doesn't count as serious practice anyway), it doesn't erase the months before that when he was doing all kinds of variety streaming. Similarly, if Scan is doing more YB's activities now, it means he can't play as much as he used to before. Players play outside of streaming too. UMS setting private games which dont appear on match history. Most of their practice is done like this. Proleague activity for sure has decreased, and its in part because of the chinese spons being so frequent taking some of the top players out of the proleagues. And dont get me started on proleagues and spons. I have literally thrown multiple thousands of dollars at them and have my finger on the pulse to keep track. I legit think you are not giving enough credit to the players and their efforts, and you are not the only person on TL that down plays it. I have also made the argument before, and this is also something pros know. Quantity is way less important than quality. Quality practice is way different than grinding out quantity for the sake of grinding out max number of games. Pros also discuss game theory with one another and analyze the gameplay of their contemporaries, something that happens outside of playing matches but is still essential for improvement. Things like watching the VODs of a top players and deciphering conceptual theory behind the play for their own implementation.
But they could also do all those things (private games, analyzing replays, watching VODs) before too. And we have no way to quantify what they're doing behind the stream. For all we know these people have a life too and behind the stream they could very well go outside, meet families and friends, and for some, take care of children.
I'm neither giving credits nor discredits to them, nor am I making criticism. I'm simply pointing out that if they are doing more of something else, they are doing less of playing BW. I don't think grinding out hundreds of games is good practicing either, but at the same time you can't say that if they spend most of their time doing variety streaming or coaching, they would still have quality practice just as much as they used to (when they weren't doing all those other things).
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On March 25 2025 00:33 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2025 23:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On March 24 2025 23:30 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 23:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On March 24 2025 21:44 TMNT wrote:On March 24 2025 21:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
The quality of those games were subASL level, to say the least Because players aren't as focused on the game as before. Shuttle and Clam both spending more time with SC universities than playing BW. Shuttle is even involved in that excel dancing shit. And for as much as everyone, notably Artosis, will be pushing for the narrative that Scan has been grinding hard for this day, the truth is for a year or so now he has spent increasingly time on coaching at YB (Sea's university) and less on actually playing BW. Scan did in fact grind a fair bit so Artosis would not be wrong. Talk to him on a daily basis. It is possible to do a lot of University activities and also practice a good amount. Shuttle also put in a good amount of games but cant say much about whether he was super dilligent about his practice. But it was more than he did for the last three times he qualified. Calm on the other hand played less for a far as I know. But even then, back when Calm played a lot more Scan was still winning like 80% of his TvZ vs Calm, albeit in online play. I legit think you are down playing pros and their activity and drive way too much. Xun was doing the same on stream and I very very much disagree with it because often times its just not an actual reflection of reality. For example Xun said pros play way less serious online, even though that is where they actually make a living. Proleagues, KcM, Ultimate battles and the Chinese sponsored battles and the Soop series has the pros playing their very best most of the time. Plus they are in their comfort zone of their own homes with their own chairs and setup. I will argue pros play worse offline on average than online. While yea, ASL has the most prestige, it does not mean players are able to play their very best on stage everytime they are on stage. But Proleague activity has been down for a year or so. Same goes for sponmatches. KCM is a 8-week tournament, 3 times a year, in which only 3 players join a week. I don't count laddering as serious practice, let alone the amount of ladder activity each one has. Chinese UB are almost exclusively for top 10 players or so. You can't say they are spending a lot of time with other stuff and still spending as much time playing BW as before. If you say Barracks has been grinding, I can see it because the only thing he does when turning on his stream is playing, be it ladder, spons, proleagues... He's never joined a university, he doesn't play UMS, he doesn't play LOL, he doesn't coach, he doesn't do variety streaming. When you turn on Shuttle's stream, you see him acting as host for excel dancing, playing various games, joining in a plethora of C9's activities,... Even if he puts on a few weeks of focus on BW and 100 ladder games (which as I said doesn't count as serious practice anyway), it doesn't erase the months before that when he was doing all kinds of variety streaming. Similarly, if Scan is doing more YB's activities now, it means he can't play as much as he used to before. Players play outside of streaming too. UMS setting private games which dont appear on match history. Most of their practice is done like this. Proleague activity for sure has decreased, and its in part because of the chinese spons being so frequent taking some of the top players out of the proleagues. And dont get me started on proleagues and spons. I have literally thrown multiple thousands of dollars at them and have my finger on the pulse to keep track. I legit think you are not giving enough credit to the players and their efforts, and you are not the only person on TL that down plays it. I have also made the argument before, and this is also something pros know. Quantity is way less important than quality. Quality practice is way different than grinding out quantity for the sake of grinding out max number of games. Pros also discuss game theory with one another and analyze the gameplay of their contemporaries, something that happens outside of playing matches but is still essential for improvement. Things like watching the VODs of a top players and deciphering conceptual theory behind the play for their own implementation. But they could also do all those things (private games, analyzing replays, watching VODs) before too. And we have no way to quantify what they're doing behind the stream. For all we know these people have a life too and behind the stream they could very well go outside, meet families and friends, and for some, take care of children. I'm neither giving credits nor discredits to them, nor am I making criticism. I'm simply pointing out that if they are doing more of something else, they are doing less of playing BW. I don't think grinding out hundreds of games is good practicing either, but at the same time you can't say that if they spend most of their time doing variety streaming or coaching, they would still have quality practice just as much as they used to (when they weren't doing all those other things).
I agree that time is a finite resources with limited allocation potential. I will give you that because its a fact.
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Whoa, my word. Scan made it out? Good for him! I should've known better than to bet on someone who is happy to be a meme and resting on his laurels...
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What happened with Nyoken?
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Bro, Mini is a pit bull that kills other pit bulls. Suspect Zero Toss. Drinking everyone's eyeballs with a straw. STRAIGHT TO THE FINALS.
Seriously though, great games. I wish 3 people could have advanced today. Calm showing some exciting games, despite his "bad mechanics" or whatever. Zerg is hard man, he looked good. I thought he had Mini's giant pit bull balls for a second with those drops. Absolute anarchy.
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Also, TMNT, from one supreme jackass to another: chill the f**k out and stop fighting with people all the time. Forums are a happy place.
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Saiyan and Xun are doing very good cast.
Nyoken is good too, but I prefer largely S and X.
I just miss the sounds and musik.
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On March 25 2025 04:57 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Also, TMNT, from one supreme jackass to another: chill the f**k out and stop fighting with people all the time. Forums are a happy place.
I was not fighting with anyone in this thread. I had a disagreement with someone (about Clem & Serral playing BW), and RJBTV had a disagreement with me (about BW players practice regime). Both conversations are amicable, respectful and nobody said anything bad about the other poster. That's what forums are for. It's still a happy place, but also informative.
Tbh I don't know why the guy who mentioned Clem & Serral got a warning. Maybe there's a rule saying you shouldn't start an argument about SC2 vs SC1 haha.
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This wrecked my liquibet but scan made it so i m ok with it. GL in the ro16!
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Scan played great, well done (Based on who else gets in, he might end up being first pick in group selection lol).
Calm and Shuttle actually played a pretty good game in game 2, but seemed to fall apart in the last 2 games. I appreciate calm's strat vs mini in game 3 (fake a hydra bust to force cannons in front, then drop in empty main) but mini was really good at looking for shenanigans and had perfect response. Game 4 shuttle seems just so clueless in late game pvt... just taking so many terrible engagements. Game 5 calm was very sloppy with his rallies and was super behind after losing 3 mutas and overlords for free.
Am I wrong or was calm's strategy in game 2 pretty similar to the original 973 that zero was doing? shoot down wall with hydras and fake an all-in. but then take a 4th immediately with your 4th hatch. But pros stopped being so greedy with the early 4th because protoss got better at responding to it?
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Shuttle played two incredible PvT in the qualifiers against Royal and Leta, only using Shuttles and a million storms.
But somehow against Scan who is supposedly the weaker opponent, AND after getting a big lead, he chose to go the less optimal route of Arbiter tech and had terrible engagements. Why not build on something you're currently good at?
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Thanks for casting Saiyan & Xun.
Sharp observations, always engaging with the game and matching the pace, funny words and jokes a great entertainment to have watched it with your narration.
I actually lost instantly the first liquibet too but I thought that this is a wacky group (like when Calm advanced over Rain? in ASL16?) so it's easy to let go. Add to that how the result and the games ended up being superb. Mini always gets the first ticket of a season and once again his matches looked as if he (or anyone C+ and up) is playing against me. All hails to the druid toss!!!
Maps: Eclipse is a dreadful map and I'm kind of sad having to watch players grind on and on, always just within reason and economy to not gg. Dominator SE is less punishing with the extended build terrain, solid update for this great map. The game played on it displayed this fact well. Metropolis gives such an obvious hint on how to strategise on the map that it gave the least interesting game of the group. Specifically I was most interested in seeing how Pole star works out, I want to have a macro map with encampment possibilities like Vermeer, Electric circuit but here the high grounds gave me a cb / radeon feeling.
Overall: Long and volatile games, good tactics, some moments of unbelievable execution, I give it 8 drones out 10.
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On March 25 2025 04:39 PVJ wrote:
What happened with Nyoken?
Think he's just busy. A few seasons ago he mentioned that he gets up at like 5AM to cast and then has to go to work after. Probably pretty draining.
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EPT
