On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
It isnt random? Wow that sounds i n s a n e to me if true.
On February 06 2024 13:35 Ideas wrote: "even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
Bisu's PvT is one of the most disappointing things a Protoss fan has to deal with. And when players like Best and Stork exist, that's saying something.
He has probably the best macro out of all P players, the rate at which he eats the map and produces units is insane. He also has really good (used to be best, now has competition in Mini/Snow) early game micro. Those 2 things together let him crush mediocre terrans, and pull off an occasional win against a good Terran.
His late game planning and large scale engagements, however, have always been terrible. There's only one thing that Bisu is good at, in the matchup, long term: getting to max with arbiter really quick and 1a2a3aing into a fortified position. When executed off of very scary macro, and often from a significant early game lead, it can crush.
However, that isn't a style that works on every map, and it doesn't really work when T prepares for it well. E.g. doing it into 150 supply Terran that has a giant minefield, buildings, etc, it just doesn't work. It is how Bisu threw very large leads over and over against truly solid Terrans over the year, and is the top reason why cheering for him for starleagues has always been hard.
Every other season, Bisu tries to do something new in this matchup. But rather than making incremental changes over time, he tries to completely change to a different style within the scope of one season. When that predictably doesn't work, he goes back to good 11-12 min gateway man arbiter bust the next time around.
This time was no different. He tried to bust a very well fortified position, failed, lost the first arbiter to turrets, and despite having entire map (literally taking every base except the 4 bases open for terran), could not keep up in follow-up engagements.
Bisu's PvT may be #4 in the world in terms of ELO, but his style has always been something extra effective against weak terrans, and not reliable at all against strong terrans. And if you're trying to win a league, it is hard to dodge every single strong Terran.
I think a lot of this comes down to his Reaver control, which is not on a level of other S protosess. It is also apparent in PvP sometimes. A lot of Snow's wins are just Reavers doing the job.
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
It isnt random? Wow that sounds i n s a n e to me if true.
What the hell!?
Its normal. you dont want more than 2 top tier contenders in a group. you want the best players to qualify by ensuring they dont eliminate each other. so gou split them up over all the groups. so most groups end up having 1 top tier. 1-2 second tier. 2-3 third tier. rest are randomly added in.
On February 07 2024 19:13 johanes wrote: I think a lot of this comes down to his Reaver control, which is not on a level of other S protosess. It is also apparent in PvP sometimes. A lot of Snow's wins are just Reavers doing the job.
Not really. Someone like Snow will almost never engage a terran's defense directly. He is completely fine with taking 15+ minutes to slowly kill tanks with pure reavers or storm, and only going for delay tactics and counter attacks with goon forces, never taking a straight up engagement.
On the other end of the spectrum, someone like Best is doing the opposite and is completely fine maxing out on 12 goons and pure zealot and busting everywhere all the time.
Bisu's gameplay, in that sense, is like Best's. Except Best knows where to attack, how to stretch the Terran thin to expose weaknesses and how to capitalize. Best also knows when he's beat and needs to transition from bust attempts to counter-attack plays or careers & so on.
Bisu has similar style, same or even better macro but his attacks are just blind and uninspired. He's not planning three engagements ahead to make that style work against people who don't crumble to pure numbers.
Bisu's PvT is equivalent of a terran who's running hot and having great TvZ on pure mechanics and 0 strategic play. But the matchup and modern maps are less suited for that kind of approach.
The playbook being 10 years or more outdated doesn't help much either. He's best at this style, but it is a very old style, everyone else moved on. Bisu innovated a ton in PvZ over the last 10 years, but his PvT has been stagnant. Brief forays into trying new things with limited success into reverting to same old stuff.
The reason it works at all is because his mechanics are crazy strong. Ssak was able to capitalize and push fast enough to secure the win, which isn't what every terran pro could do in that situation, so he still wins a lot. But it is also what makes Bisu's PvT so disappointing. If the man had good ideas on engagements and how and when to use his army, he would be unstoppable in the matchup. And this problem remained like this for a damn decade.
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
"even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
If rain actually practiced he'd be on par with mini in PvT but as far as I can tell he basically just plays a few games a week for K-league and that's it? Spends most if his time streaming other games. Pretty impressive that he still qualified for ASL without practicing much assuming that's the case (I could be wrong though). In comparison most of the proleauge players are streaming/playing BW for ~8 hours a day 6 days a week.
I'd say even Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's
Yes, Rain relies on pure talent. However, it's pretty clear that his talent only extends to 1.5 matchups (PvP and a bit of PvZ), which makes it seem like he's not going to win another ASL anytime soon (I'd still think he would lose to Effort, Soulkey, Hero and Soma as well). Bisu got average at PvT by just relying on mechanics, but Rain doesn't have the mechanics to do this, so he just ends up even worse.
They're pretty similar players in the sense that neither are that good at PvT, with Bisu being slightly better Bisu is above average in PvP and PvZ, while Rain is decent at PvZ (worse than Bisu) and better at PvP
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
Not sure about JD placement there, he has step up his game a lot lately, will be interesting watching him more.
I think like eonzerg said, unless JD really changes his playstyle, I don't think he's going to go very far
He succeeded in the KESPA era because he is decisive and aggressive, but nowadays, the game changes on a dime if you lose an additional 1-2 units, and he's just not good at adapting and playing the macro game.
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
"even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
If rain actually practiced he'd be on par with mini in PvT but as far as I can tell he basically just plays a few games a week for K-league and that's it? Spends most if his time streaming other games. Pretty impressive that he still qualified for ASL without practicing much assuming that's the case (I could be wrong though). In comparison most of the proleauge players are streaming/playing BW for ~8 hours a day 6 days a week.
Dude's been back playing League for 4 straight days after he qualified lol.
On February 06 2024 13:35 Ideas wrote: "even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
Bisu's PvT is one of the most disappointing things a Protoss fan has to deal with. And when players like Best and Stork exist, that's saying something.
He has probably the best macro out of all P players, the rate at which he eats the map and produces units is insane. He also has really good (used to be best, now has competition in Mini/Snow) early game micro. Those 2 things together let him crush mediocre terrans, and pull off an occasional win against a good Terran.
His late game planning and large scale engagements, however, have always been terrible. There's only one thing that Bisu is good at, in the matchup, long term: getting to max with arbiter really quick and 1a2a3aing into a fortified position. When executed off of very scary macro, and often from a significant early game lead, it can crush.
However, that isn't a style that works on every map, and it doesn't really work when T prepares for it well. E.g. doing it into 150 supply Terran that has a giant minefield, buildings, etc, it just doesn't work. It is how Bisu threw very large leads over and over against truly solid Terrans over the year, and is the top reason why cheering for him for starleagues has always been hard.
Every other season, Bisu tries to do something new in this matchup. But rather than making incremental changes over time, he tries to completely change to a different style within the scope of one season. When that predictably doesn't work, he goes back to good 11-12 min gateway man arbiter bust the next time around.
This time was no different. He tried to bust a very well fortified position, failed, lost the first arbiter to turrets, and despite having entire map (literally taking every base except the 4 bases open for terran), could not keep up in follow-up engagements.
Bisu's PvT may be #4 in the world in terms of ELO, but his style has always been something extra effective against weak terrans, and not reliable at all against strong terrans. And if you're trying to win a league, it is hard to dodge every single strong Terran.
I agree with all of your points but I think you might just have a bad attitude/perspective about watching/enjoying the game. If Bisu is bad at PvT then basically what, there's only 3 players in the world that are good at the matchup at all? wtf lol
Reminds me of the very toxic most annoying "fans" that just say everyone sucks except flash whenever they see a player make a mistake or not play super exceptionally every game. No one can play the game perfect, everyone has their own style etc. That's what make the game fun to watch and enjoy.
edit - having said that though. Now more than ever I really do wish stork and bisu could archon-morpth together and form a perfect PvZ/PvT player lol (bisu's mechanics and stork's strategic mind) .
Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
What do you mean by blame his multitask? I find it funny because I think sometimes the unnecessary multitasking kind of does him more harm than good. Like in PvT oftentimes what you need is patience and precision instead of doing 3 things at the same time. Snow often lets his minerals build up a bit (sometimes A LOT) when he's microing valuable units like Reavers and Templars. But watching Bisu's FPVOD I have the impression that he can't slow himself down, to his own detriments.
I think like eonzerg said, unless JD really changes his playstyle, I don't think he's going to go very far
He succeeded in the KESPA era because he is decisive and aggressive, but nowadays, the game changes on a dime if you lose an additional 1-2 units, and he's just not good at adapting and playing the macro game.
I have been paying close attention to jaedong lately, and like the other guy said. He has definitely stepped up his game. I'm not sure if it's solid enough to win an ASL, but he looks strong enough to beat anyone right now.
On February 09 2024 09:22 TMNT wrote: What do you mean by blame his multitask? I find it funny because I think sometimes the unnecessary multitasking kind of does him more harm than good. Like in PvT oftentimes what you need is patience and precision instead of doing 3 things at the same time. Snow often lets his minerals build up a bit (sometimes A LOT) when he's microing valuable units like Reavers and Templars. But watching Bisu's FPVOD I have the impression that he can't slow himself down, to his own detriments.
This is 100% a true thing. A good example is Hyuk. Hyuk is so hell bent on being insanely fast with his arguably the best keyboard+mouse mechanical skill in all of starcraft, that he loses out on using brain power for proper optimizations, information gathering + processing, often overspends on too many low tier units and doesn't properly progress his gas unit compositions on time.
Not playing at maximum APM and Maximum multitasking seems to be the superior option because it opens up mental processing power and more attention to detail. Snow will quite often just take a "somewhat calm" look at what he's dealing with.
On February 09 2024 22:27 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: This is 100% a true thing. A good example is Hyuk. Hyuk is so hell bent on being insanely fast with his arguably the best keyboard+mouse mechanical skill in all of starcraft, that he loses out on using brain power for proper optimizations, information gathering + processing, often overspends on too many low tier units and doesn't properly progress his gas unit compositions on time.
Not playing at maximum APM and Maximum multitasking seems to be the superior option because it opens up mental processing power and more attention to detail. Snow will quite often just take a "somewhat calm" look at what he's dealing with.
FlaSh was also exemplary in this style of play. He is fast, but "calm" and doesn't seem too overwraught if he misses an SCV or something. I think a lot of it comes down to being extremely comfortable and confident with screen switching using the keyboard. He just doesn't use the mouse all that much. He isn't constantly clicking or spamming with the mouse. Most of the APM comes from his keyboard hand, and it is so automatic that it allows him to "step back" or "stay above" and view things objectively, and use the mouse "when needed".
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
I haven't had time for the latter half of 2023, but generally it's the same.
Mini having the best PvZ is the biggest myth in the modern era of BW. The 8-2 he did to Queen five seasons ago gave audiences that impression forever when in fact it was more like 2 consecutive freak results.
Mods, please delete this post. I somehow logged in through steam and messed up my credentials. I will log in properly next time through Battle.net. Sorry for the inconvenience.
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
I haven't had time for the latter half of 2023, but generally it's the same.
Mini having the best PvZ is the biggest myth in the modern era of BW. The 8-2 he did to Queen five seasons ago gave audiences that impression forever when in fact it was more like 2 consecutive freak results.
I'd still say that daily proleague games are very different compared to tournament games Mini might not be good at casual vZ games recently, but his tournament preparation is really, really good
I should have quantified "best right now" with "best right now in a tournament setting"
The thing that stood out the most to me in comparison between offline and online Snow PvZ is his HTs. Online, he sometimes uses pure goon/HT to deal with muta snipes attempts. If he has corsairs, he's routinely storming scourge, etc. Basically his reaction from mutas appearing on minimap to selecting a HT and storming them is near instant. Others don't really have that.
EPT
