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On April 18 2023 03:24 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2023 01:53 outscar wrote:
Ladies and gentleman this was the long awaited BeSt choke once again! Now that makes sense. No one predicted Best topping that Ro16 group of death, let alone getting into semi. Can't choke when you are the underdog. But then when everyone was saying PvT is his strong matchup, the maps are good for him, this was his best chance of winning ASL. Suddenly he became the favorite. Of course he choked.
If this was online I swear BeSt could crush Mind like 4-2. Look at those results on Ultimate Battle of last year - he was killing terrans with 8 - 1 (vs. Mong), 6 - 3 (vs. Sharp), 8 - 1 (vs. Rush).
Someone posted that these series despite being macro games were one of the most boring. If BeSt didn't choke we could get interesting games no matter the result but he did like zero damage to terran and then slowly died all series.
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Sigh Best, at least you're seeded for the next ASL...
Honestly Mind had good vulture harass, but I feel like every game Best won was because Mind threw his army away. His defense was too good for Best to overcome w/ Shuttle Gatewayman...
I think whoever wins between Hero and JyJ will be able to defeat Mind.
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Terrible series. I mean, Mind played really well but Best made so many questionable decisions it was absolutely not fun to watch... At least he had adapted to Mind's vultures by game 4 or so...
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On April 18 2023 07:11 outscar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2023 03:24 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2023 01:53 outscar wrote:
Ladies and gentleman this was the long awaited BeSt choke once again! Now that makes sense. No one predicted Best topping that Ro16 group of death, let alone getting into semi. Can't choke when you are the underdog. But then when everyone was saying PvT is his strong matchup, the maps are good for him, this was his best chance of winning ASL. Suddenly he became the favorite. Of course he choked. If this was online I swear BeSt could crush Mind like 4-2. Look at those results on Ultimate Battle of last year - he was killing terrans with 8 - 1 (vs. Mong), 6 - 3 (vs. Sharp), 8 - 1 (vs. Rush). Someone posted that these series despite being macro games were one of the most boring. If BeSt didn't choke we could get interesting games no matter the result but he did like zero damage to terran and then slowly died all series.
Last year was a bit too far because in 2023 he's having a noticeable drop-off in form.
That said, before the semi he's still 12-6 vs Mind this year so clearly he's the favorite.
Agreed that the series was boring. Even the games Best won came from Mind's failed pushes. The series was basically like this: whoever attacks first will throw his army away, and whoever defends first will capitalize on that and win.
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It was painfully clear which player was clear-headed and which player was out of his element.
Best is on paper much better than Mind (Major Proleague regular vs. a K-League Terran) but just looking at him you could tell he just lacked any sort of composure to come up with winning plays.
Mind was almost scarily intimidating in how calm he looked and making excellent decision after excellent decision, shades of AlphaGo
Too bad for Best, he's squandered probably the most favorable path to a championship he'll ever get and he did not play well to boot
(Also it's crazy that Mind failed to even qualify for ASL 14)
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Bisutopia19158 Posts
BeSt played bad, but Mind played as near Flash level as he could. It's amazing to see him reach the talent he once was.
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People aren't giving Mind enough credit. Just saying Best played bad - which can certainly be argued - is ignoring the obvious: Mind's level of play was the best I've seen from him in a very long time. It's like he's received coaching by either Flash or Royal. Something's different about him, and it's not just the results.
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Last game on Retro: going for 7-8 vultures harassment with dropship loading 2 tanks completely turned the game around. How could anybody in their right mind [sic] think of that?? The results were disastrous for best. Losing the 2nd o' clock, forcing a cancel on the 1 o'clock, major chaos at the 3 o'clock. After that the failed engagements at the o'clock sealed his faith.
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It would be crazy for Mind to win another major after so many years. I feel for Best fans but the most unclutch player was his ro8 challenger  .
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On April 18 2023 15:24 Magic Powers wrote:
People aren't giving Mind enough credit. Just saying Best played bad - which can certainly be argued - is ignoring the obvious: Mind's level of play was the best I've seen from him in a very long time. It's like he's received coaching by either Flash or Royal. Something's different about him, and it's not just the results.
Thank you for making this observation, I agree. Too much ado about what Best "did wrong" and not nearly enough about what Mind did right. Next time we should see about seeding some of these LR posters into the ASL.
Mind was incredible. His form is not a fluke, he has been consistently dominating - what a treat it is to see him reach a similar level of play as he did in his 'golden years'
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This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough.
Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown!
Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out..
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On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote:
This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough.
Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown!
Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out..
Just calm down. Yes Best played worse than what he could, but there is no way players nowhere near ASL level like YSC and Tyson would provide a better series, unless you're suggesting "more entertaining" as Mind clowning on those guys with nuke.
And for the mediocre guy from the internet to suggest literally the top 3 player in the world of a race came with 0 preparation is just madness. It's just, the style he played (Shuttleman) is more about execution than preparation. Best has never been a Carrier guy so you can't fault him for that. Meanwhile, the Shuttleman play looks great when you have the first advantage but looks awful when you're playing catch-up. Think Best vs Ample earlier in Ro24 or even the game on Dark Origin vs Mind.
Also that style is VERY DEMANDING in mechanics, so to downplay it as "mass zealot A move" just shows your lack of understanding of the matchup. Even Bisu who everyone thinks of as one of the greatest Protoss with mechanics and multitasking, can't play that style. He literally can't adapt to modern PvT. Best is the only renown pro from the Kespa era who can play that style effectively. It was 1-2 years ago when he was smashing Flash and Light with multiple Shuttle, but I recently his overall game has been much worse, I guess partly due to age catching up.
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Ordinarily Best has a kind of know-how when it comes to damaging Terran — avoid the death ball, sacrifice a low-ground base to the death ball, recall into the T main, psi storm the T units as they try to go up the ramp; that sort of thing. He’s actually brilliant at delaying, avoiding head-on engagements with the Terran force, cutting off reinforcements, counterattacking, etc. It’s very “soft style,” to the extent possible in BW, anyway.
He couples this with rock-solid defensive skills against early pushes and harassment.
In this series his defensive skills were there (at least against the timing pushes) — both wins came from breaking Mind’s pushes and looking good doing it. But the ineffable ability to find good engagements against a high-supply Terran wasn’t all there. It wasn’t terrible, but it was maybe 85–90%, whereas usually it’s 120% compared to a “generic top Protoss.” Mind’s defense was 110% and he got good mileage out of Vultures, too.
I don’t think Best played all that badly, but his top level is brilliant and this wasn’t his top level. Meanwhile Mind played superbly.
Kinda reminds me of the BoXs where Flash beat Rain and Snow to win his 4th(?) ASL. It was competent Protoss play against extraordinary Terran play.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
This series reminded me of that semi finals BeSt played against FlaSh in the OSL? where BeSt looked amazing all tournament and then against FlaSh just kinda fell apart. Mind played absolutely amazing though, both players did. It's just Mind won out in the end.
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On April 19 2023 03:16 Djabanete wrote:
Ordinarily Best has a kind of know-how when it comes to damaging Terran — avoid the death ball, sacrifice a low-ground base to the death ball, recall into the T main, psi storm the T units as they try to go up the ramp; that sort of thing. He’s actually brilliant at delaying, avoiding head-on engagements with the Terran force, cutting off reinforcements, counterattacking, etc. It’s very “soft style,” to the extent possible in BW, anyway.
The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is.
Also with that style, Protoss is under an intangible pressure that he needs to do damage to Terran, otherwise the Gatewayman Shuttle army scales pretty bad against 3 2 Terran mech and you have no late game solution. But a good Terran denies your vision and impatient Protosses can overextend and pay for that.
Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back.
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On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote:
This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough.
Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown!
Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out..
dumbest most ignorant comment of the year award goes to!
But I respect your opinion despite that.
On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote:
Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back.
This is super true. Due to the games nature of limited resources when you make a choice to do something you HAVE TO commit to it and get the most out of it, even if the choice was bad in hindsight. Turning tail without doing damage is often times worse. It is how players can get locked in Lair hydra builds ZvP because their only option in certain situation is to all in with that and "brute force" it or lose. Sometimes you'll see ignorant comments asking "why didn't he go hive!" or "why did he not get defilers!???". It is because the zerg got locked into just hydra due to the situation.
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On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote:
This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough.
Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown!
Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out..
I think this is just mean and ignorant. Yes Best played bad compared to what we are used to from him in TvP, it was very disappointing. Telling someone they should retire because of a bad performance is pretty stupid. Everyone has highs and lows, nobody performs consistently. It was also mentioned before that Best has a history of choking in important matches and it definitely showed here in his decision making. A lot of short-fuse decisions I would say. For example going down the ramp with everything in Game 6 when a few vultures and a couple of tanks attacked his 4th/5th location. Or when he decided to recall in game 4 when Mind was knocking at his front door already in reach of 2 expansions and his nat. Like, what are you expecting to achieve at that point except dying to the death ball? However, I can personally sympathise with "choking" a lot, since I regularly do it myself IRL...
On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 03:16 Djabanete wrote:
Ordinarily Best has a kind of know-how when it comes to damaging Terran — avoid the death ball, sacrifice a low-ground base to the death ball, recall into the T main, psi storm the T units as they try to go up the ramp; that sort of thing. He’s actually brilliant at delaying, avoiding head-on engagements with the Terran force, cutting off reinforcements, counterattacking, etc. It’s very “soft style,” to the extent possible in BW, anyway. The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is. Also with that style, Protoss is under an intangible pressure that he needs to do damage to Terran, otherwise the Gatewayman Shuttle army scales pretty bad against 3 2 Terran mech and you have no late game solution. But a good Terran denies your vision and impatient Protosses can overextend and pay for that. Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back.
Hm, I think Best is actually not the best in picking the correct engagements but the best in making them work anyways somehow? Like, even in this ASL he attacked uphill into a depot wall and still managed to break it somehow. He executes those engagements very well, opposed to Bisu who often seems to do everything wrong in those engagements.
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On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 03:16 Djabanete wrote:
Ordinarily Best has a kind of know-how when it comes to damaging Terran — avoid the death ball, sacrifice a low-ground base to the death ball, recall into the T main, psi storm the T units as they try to go up the ramp; that sort of thing. He’s actually brilliant at delaying, avoiding head-on engagements with the Terran force, cutting off reinforcements, counterattacking, etc. It’s very “soft style,” to the extent possible in BW, anyway. The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is.
Huh, I've always found Best to be resourceful in finding useful ways to exchange his army without wasting it on the Terran's main force (in the high-supply, high-upgrade part of the game --- earlier on, he sometimes likes to do head-on timing attacks like the one that eliminated Light in this ASL).
Good point about the vision. Mind gambled on building additional static defenses, and it really paid off.
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On April 18 2023 15:24 Magic Powers wrote:
People aren't giving Mind enough credit. Just saying Best played bad - which can certainly be argued - is ignoring the obvious: Mind's level of play was the best I've seen from him in a very long time. It's like he's received coaching by either Flash or Royal. Something's different about him, and it's not just the results.
that is the thing many people miss about broodwar. super high level play with one race can make the opponent appear to play bad even if they arent. best did not play bad. mind played too good for him.
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You guys are ridiculous. Mind was solid but he didn't have to do much other than correctly assume Best's strategy on the standard maps.
And that's fine, he's playing the perfect race for that kind of thing to be very successful.
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EPT
