EPT
[ASL15] Ro4 Day 1
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
LB on Best tho! | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Simplistik
2093 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
I've been watching some Kespa games of best and I hope he brings some of that back. Take all the bases, make 24+ gateways and show absolute dominance! ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.io/93B5U18_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium) | ||
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prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
On April 17 2023 17:33 Simplistik wrote: Is it possible that both players are the underdog in this one?! No, no, no Simplistik , Best has and always had a monstrous PvT... he can go toe to toe with Flash  Best 3-1 or maybe 3-0 imo | ||
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
prostan: it's bo7 not bo5. Fortunately the ASL system is improving.  Gogo Best! ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NxjEWC6.gif) | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
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Simplistik
2093 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-15-2023/jrLZW2.gif) | ||
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jovoktom
Hungary13 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xuohcmf.png) | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
On April 17 2023 18:58 jovoktom wrote: Hey, is it online? I am at the studio and no one is here 😆 did you go to the right studio? they're showing the studio on stream and ppl are there | ||
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jovoktom
Hungary13 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 18:23 Simplistik wrote: I may be terribly biased, but I don't want to see too much of this: I'd love to see it once or twice and then BeSt completely destroying Mind for the next 4 games ^^ | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 19:10 jovoktom wrote: On the second floor, but there is only an empty afreeca studio I dunno where you got your info, but afstar1 blog is your best bet for getting correct info. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
‘ASL 시즌15' 4강 현장 관람 안내 드립니다. 관람석은 티켓링크를 통해서 온라인 유료로 구매하실 수 있습니다. Here is a guide to the on-site viewing of the semifinals of ‘ASL Season 15’. Seats can be purchased online for a fee through the ticket link. 장소 : 잠실 비타500 콜로세움 (서울특별시 송파구 올림픽로 240 지하1층) Venue: Jamsil Vita 500 Colosseum (B1, 240 Olympic-ro, Songpa-gu, Seoul) | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
 FanTaSy is playing Protoss  | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Partly Best to blame himself as he didnt tech to arbiters for stasis and relying on shuttle play which didnt reduce the tank count | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Best with 1 gate goon expand Mind with FD | ||
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Minely
60 Posts
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
Knows that vulture defense is Best' weakness and exploits exactly that. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Once again, Best failed to find ways to reduce a T's tank count which ultimately leads to T being able to a-move across the map. Also, he tried shuttle play (lesser degree than last game) which did not work out. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:12 oxKnu wrote: Mind is playing the opponent perfectly. Knows that vulture defense is Best' weakness and exploits exactly that. Was that so? Dragoons were always in position to defend. I don't think Best could do much better than that. The Vultures effectively suicided themselves to get value. The two early and mid game (failed) pushes from Best was the main reason he lost. | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
In this Vermeer game there was a point where Best didn't even know that the whole map was filled with mines. At that point the game was lost anyway. | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:24 TMNT wrote: Was that so? Dragoons were always in position to defend. I don't think Best could do much better than that. The Vultures effectively suicided themselves to get value. The two early and mid game (failed) pushes from Best was the main reason he lost. He had 2 goons to defend 6+ vultures + drop. Now, he had failed to scout anything in that game so he wouldn't know this, which was the main problem. The game was lost by the time he got to attack. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:25 oxKnu wrote: I think a 4-0 is incoming. Mind is just hard countering this shuttle-templar style and Best is failing to adapt. In this Vermeer game there was a point where Best didn't even know that the whole map was filled with mines. At that point the game was lost anyway. 4-0 would be brutal. I think after this 2-0 BeSt is already getting flashbacks to his final series against July lmao | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:28 Zariel wrote: Jacket is off for Best. Wearing a Champion tshirt lol This is actually that moment in professional sports when champions are forged. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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jovoktom
Hungary13 Posts
On April 17 2023 19:33 Peeano wrote: https://bj.afreecatv.com/afstar1/post/100710318 ‘ASL 시즌15' 4강 현장 관람 안내 드립니다. 관람석은 티켓링크를 통해서 온라인 유료로 구매하실 수 있습니다. Here is a guide to the on-site viewing of the semifinals of ‘ASL Season 15’. Seats can be purchased online for a fee through the ticket link. 장소 : 잠실 비타500 콜로세움 (서울특별시 송파구 올림픽로 240 지하1층) Venue: Jamsil Vita 500 Colosseum (B1, 240 Olympic-ro, Songpa-gu, Seoul) Thank you, I checked tl.net guide and posts on reddit, this is a useful information | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
I'll be honest, I think that map is pretty bad for T. Sylphid is imo the deciding game. It's T favored and if Best somehow gets a win the momentum has shifted. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:34 BLinD-RawR wrote: peeano Im going to need you to cover the rest of the polls Stop siding with v1 | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Let's see if it gives him more confidence heading into map #4 | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 20:43 Galacsia wrote: Could that Vulture ever get up the ramp? The reason it isn't able to go up normally on 76 is because of space, not because of a doodad like a lurker egg or a mineral field. I expect Mind tested that. A vulture can pass 2 diagonally placed pylons for example, so it doesn't seem unreasonable it couldn't be pushed through with an SCV. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
Mind won when he went 2-0. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 17 2023 21:09 Magic Powers wrote: Damn, when did Mind learn to push Best around like that? I think Best is just being stubborn at this point, Mind is just pulling a wall in front of him. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Best needs to re-think his approach in PvT. The shuttle play just not working out for him. Sure he had like 5 bases and maxed out early, but he needs to be able use tech units better (a la HTs and arbiters) in order to trade effectively. Once again, without reducing Mind's tank count, he simply cannot win. The double armoury for fast 3/2 upgrades is just insane value. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Mind threw that game a bit when he got cocky and decided to gamble and setup a wedge between the natural and 3rd bases resulting in losing his initial ~8 tanks. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On April 17 2023 21:37 Malongo wrote: I thought Best was going to throw it when he went to the right side to Minds third. Same. Mind's tanks were not quite close enough to shell all the way to the right of the 3rd bridge, also +1 mech is kinda meh. It only starts getting scary after +2. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
I don't think Mind's play is anything special really. He just fortified his position and Best couldn't help himself but diving in with tons of Zealot and failed, got super far behind, then the games just became Terran A moving across the map. It's more Best losing than Mind winning, is what I mean. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 17 2023 21:37 Malongo wrote: I thought Best was going to throw it when he went to the right side to Minds third. It would have been a throw had he not smashed the 5 Fac earlier. The lead was too huge that even with ape move you still win as Protoss. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 17 2023 21:42 TMNT wrote: Tbh had Best not thrown the HBR game, he'd be 3-2 up by now and neither Retro or Nemesis is Terran-favored. I don't think Mind's play is anything special really. He just fortified his position and Best couldn't help himself but diving in with tons of Zealot and failed, got super far behind, then the games just became Terran A moving across the map. It's more Best losing than Mind winning, is what I mean. I think 12 nex was by far the worse choice in hbr. Mind has played pretty well but hardly anything super special. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
This game was there for the taking. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Katkishka
United States657 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
But damn, Best with a bit of a choke today. His engagements left a lot to be desired. Some questionable decision making too. Real missed opportunity for Best this series. Got his favourite matchup in the ro4 with some pretty generous PvT maps. This one will hurt. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Float CC to middle of map 6 mineral patches. Mind: ohhh yeahhh Tanks are a thing of beauty. That 2tank+vulture to take out Best's 2 o'clock followed by killing ~15 probes at the 3oclock was so good. Best's repeated attacks just... beat himself. Amazing series either way! Mind to the finals! | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
Mind does deserve it though, his preparation was on point. And I think of him as having a real chance to win it all. No matter who gets through in the other semifinal. For Best, I think the style he is playing in PvT (shuttle-templar) is just way too demanding mechanically for someone that can seemingly only play at 60% in offline settings. For the future, if he somehow mixes up his strats more he could have better chances against these rock solid Terrans. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
Too few Gateways, too many zealots and not enough Observers. It's sad but, oh well, it's to be expected at this point. I know I'm supposed to root for Mind's opponent as vengeance for taking down Best, but Mind's my favorite Terran and I really like the way he's been playing so he'll be on my LB. | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
On April 17 2023 22:16 Galacsia wrote: Quite disappointing play from Best practically the entire series. Too few Gateways, too many zealots and not enough Observers. It's sad but, oh well, it's to be expected at this point. I know I'm supposed to root for Mind's opponent as vengeance for taking down Best, but Mind's my favorite Terran and I really like the way he's been playing so he'll be on my LB. Gonna disagree there, he had a lot of Obs flying around this series. Way more than in the past, IIRC. But observers can't kill tanks, so that didn't matter in the end. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
The problem is Mind's style just hard counter Best's. Heavily. Flying multiple Shuttles into a fortified position is never a good idea. Then there was, weirdly, a lot of Zealot vs Vulture fight. And his usage of storm was almost non-existent. Then there's probably the psychological aspect. The last game on Retro, if Best could just calm down and, even after he lost his 4th base, retake it and then top right, he might have a better chance. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On April 17 2023 22:27 TMNT wrote: Yeah he pretty much never stepped into mines and lost units cheaply for the entire series. The problem is Mind's style just hard counter Best's. Heavily. Flying multiple Shuttles into a fortified position is never a good idea. Then there was, weirdly, a lot of Zealot vs Vulture fight. And his usage of storm was almost non-existent. Then there's probably the psychological aspect. The last game on Retro, if Best could just calm down and, even after he lost his 4th base, retake it and then top right, he might have a better chance. Big agree. I don’t get why he was so bloody minded in attacking Mind. Mind was playing pretty passively which best could’ve exploited and retake some expos. But instead he kept trying to bash into the turtled Terran. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile162 Posts
On April 17 2023 22:19 oxKnu wrote: Gonna disagree there, he had a lot of Obs flying around this series. Way more than in the past, IIRC. But observers can't kill tanks, so that didn't matter in the end. You might be right. But if i remember correctly although not major mines hit Best's units, they did soften the Zealots and also they gave Mind all the map control he needed to slow down Best which allowed Mind to be safe and get his upgraded army. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 17 2023 22:49 RowdierBob wrote: Big agree. I don’t get why he was so bloody minded in attacking Mind. Mind was playing pretty passively which best could’ve exploited and retake some expos. But instead he kept trying to bash into the turtled Terran. Best played like Shuttle today, in that he just threw zealots and shuttles into Mind's position and hoped for the best (lmao too many puns not intended in that one). Instead, he should have played like Snow: get as much value out of reaver and storm as you can, never fully engage Terran, while taking the entire map (and getting into arbiter or carrier depending on the situationi) and storm drops until Terran runs out of money. | ||
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Simplistik
2093 Posts
But, not to take anything away from Mind. He was pretty sharp. Nice creativity with the buildings, great Vessels, calm under pressure, even in the strange low eco situations. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On April 17 2023 22:04 oxKnu wrote: Best just has zero clutch in his blood, man. 😐 This game was there for the taking. Yeah, that's best down to a tee. He's the most anti clutch player I've ever seen. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4226 Posts
but oh well, GGs anyway I guess.. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4226 Posts
Especially on these maps I think that would be a cool series. But we will see.. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
Mind was uncrackable though and incredibly prepared! His vulture harass was sooo on point! Mind is going to take this ASL, doesn't matter if he faces JyJ or hero. His TvZ is killer and TvT is untouchable. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2719 Posts
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Destroyer
Czech Republic937 Posts
Also to mention.. Mind's macro was amazingly on point again and never lost a beat, which was supposed (and kept being supposed) to be Best's weapon. | ||
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Simplistik
2093 Posts
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 18 2023 01:53 outscar wrote: Ladies and gentleman this was the long awaited BeSt choke once again! Now that makes sense. No one predicted Best topping that Ro16 group of death, let alone getting into semi. Can't choke when you are the underdog. But then when everyone was saying PvT is his strong matchup, the maps are good for him, this was his best chance of winning ASL. Suddenly he became the favorite. Of course he choked. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4131 Posts
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On April 18 2023 03:24 TMNT wrote: Now that makes sense. No one predicted Best topping that Ro16 group of death, let alone getting into semi. Can't choke when you are the underdog. But then when everyone was saying PvT is his strong matchup, the maps are good for him, this was his best chance of winning ASL. Suddenly he became the favorite. Of course he choked. If this was online I swear BeSt could crush Mind like 4-2. Look at those results on Ultimate Battle of last year - he was killing terrans with 8 - 1 (vs. Mong), 6 - 3 (vs. Sharp), 8 - 1 (vs. Rush). Someone posted that these series despite being macro games were one of the most boring. If BeSt didn't choke we could get interesting games no matter the result but he did like zero damage to terran and then slowly died all series. | ||
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Lazyer
United States365 Posts
Honestly Mind had good vulture harass, but I feel like every game Best won was because Mind threw his army away. His defense was too good for Best to overcome w/ Shuttle Gatewayman... I think whoever wins between Hero and JyJ will be able to defeat Mind. | ||
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Miragee
8594 Posts
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 18 2023 07:11 outscar wrote: If this was online I swear BeSt could crush Mind like 4-2. Look at those results on Ultimate Battle of last year - he was killing terrans with 8 - 1 (vs. Mong), 6 - 3 (vs. Sharp), 8 - 1 (vs. Rush). Someone posted that these series despite being macro games were one of the most boring. If BeSt didn't choke we could get interesting games no matter the result but he did like zero damage to terran and then slowly died all series. Last year was a bit too far because in 2023 he's having a noticeable drop-off in form. That said, before the semi he's still 12-6 vs Mind this year so clearly he's the favorite. Agreed that the series was boring. Even the games Best won came from Mind's failed pushes. The series was basically like this: whoever attacks first will throw his army away, and whoever defends first will capitalize on that and win. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Best is on paper much better than Mind (Major Proleague regular vs. a K-League Terran) but just looking at him you could tell he just lacked any sort of composure to come up with winning plays. Mind was almost scarily intimidating in how calm he looked and making excellent decision after excellent decision, shades of AlphaGo Too bad for Best, he's squandered probably the most favorable path to a championship he'll ever get and he did not play well to boot (Also it's crazy that Mind failed to even qualify for ASL 14) | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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namkraft
508 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On April 18 2023 15:24 Magic Powers wrote: People aren't giving Mind enough credit. Just saying Best played bad - which can certainly be argued - is ignoring the obvious: Mind's level of play was the best I've seen from him in a very long time. It's like he's received coaching by either Flash or Royal. Something's different about him, and it's not just the results. Thank you for making this observation, I agree. Too much ado about what Best "did wrong" and not nearly enough about what Mind did right. Next time we should see about seeding some of these LR posters into the ASL. Mind was incredible. His form is not a fluke, he has been consistently dominating - what a treat it is to see him reach a similar level of play as he did in his 'golden years' | ||
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Artas1984
135 Posts
Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown! Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out.. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote: This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough. Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown! Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out.. Just calm down. Yes Best played worse than what he could, but there is no way players nowhere near ASL level like YSC and Tyson would provide a better series, unless you're suggesting "more entertaining" as Mind clowning on those guys with nuke. And for the mediocre guy from the internet to suggest literally the top 3 player in the world of a race came with 0 preparation is just madness. It's just, the style he played (Shuttleman) is more about execution than preparation. Best has never been a Carrier guy so you can't fault him for that. Meanwhile, the Shuttleman play looks great when you have the first advantage but looks awful when you're playing catch-up. Think Best vs Ample earlier in Ro24 or even the game on Dark Origin vs Mind. Also that style is VERY DEMANDING in mechanics, so to downplay it as "mass zealot A move" just shows your lack of understanding of the matchup. Even Bisu who everyone thinks of as one of the greatest Protoss with mechanics and multitasking, can't play that style. He literally can't adapt to modern PvT. Best is the only renown pro from the Kespa era who can play that style effectively. It was 1-2 years ago when he was smashing Flash and Light with multiple Shuttle, but I recently his overall game has been much worse, I guess partly due to age catching up. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
He couples this with rock-solid defensive skills against early pushes and harassment. In this series his defensive skills were there (at least against the timing pushes) — both wins came from breaking Mind’s pushes and looking good doing it. But the ineffable ability to find good engagements against a high-supply Terran wasn’t all there. It wasn’t terrible, but it was maybe 85–90%, whereas usually it’s 120% compared to a “generic top Protoss.” Mind’s defense was 110% and he got good mileage out of Vultures, too. I don’t think Best played all that badly, but his top level is brilliant and this wasn’t his top level. Meanwhile Mind played superbly. Kinda reminds me of the BoXs where Flash beat Rain and Snow to win his 4th(?) ASL. It was competent Protoss play against extraordinary Terran play. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 19 2023 03:16 Djabanete wrote: Ordinarily Best has a kind of know-how when it comes to damaging Terran — avoid the death ball, sacrifice a low-ground base to the death ball, recall into the T main, psi storm the T units as they try to go up the ramp; that sort of thing. He’s actually brilliant at delaying, avoiding head-on engagements with the Terran force, cutting off reinforcements, counterattacking, etc. It’s very “soft style,” to the extent possible in BW, anyway. The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is. Also with that style, Protoss is under an intangible pressure that he needs to do damage to Terran, otherwise the Gatewayman Shuttle army scales pretty bad against 3 2 Terran mech and you have no late game solution. But a good Terran denies your vision and impatient Protosses can overextend and pay for that. Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote: This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough. Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown! Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out.. dumbest most ignorant comment of the year award goes to! But I respect your opinion despite that. On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote: Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back. This is super true. Due to the games nature of limited resources when you make a choice to do something you HAVE TO commit to it and get the most out of it, even if the choice was bad in hindsight. Turning tail without doing damage is often times worse. It is how players can get locked in Lair hydra builds ZvP because their only option in certain situation is to all in with that and "brute force" it or lose. Sometimes you'll see ignorant comments asking "why didn't he go hive!" or "why did he not get defilers!???". It is because the zerg got locked into just hydra due to the situation. | ||
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Miragee
8594 Posts
On April 19 2023 01:17 Artas1984 wrote: This series was so epic bad, that if i had know how these games would look, i would not have wasted my time watching it - something i never thought i'd say.. I mean, i watch these ASL series for entertainment, but there was absolutely NOTHING ENTERTAINING about this RO4 TvP. This was the sort of match that prompts a suggestion for Best to retire from ASL completely and stop f*-kin wasting our time! If he is good online, that will be enough. Even the low skill pros like YSC, Tyson or the Eggstorm guy would have provided a FAR for more entertaining series then what we saw here. At least Soulkey gave his all vs. JYJ, but Best came with ZERO preparation for these maps! Ape man chad mass zealot A---> move forward and expect a miracle, what a clown! Ye, i am pissed, and i will get over it eventually, but for now i just had to bring it all out.. I think this is just mean and ignorant. Yes Best played bad compared to what we are used to from him in TvP, it was very disappointing. Telling someone they should retire because of a bad performance is pretty stupid. Everyone has highs and lows, nobody performs consistently. It was also mentioned before that Best has a history of choking in important matches and it definitely showed here in his decision making. A lot of short-fuse decisions I would say. For example going down the ramp with everything in Game 6 when a few vultures and a couple of tanks attacked his 4th/5th location. Or when he decided to recall in game 4 when Mind was knocking at his front door already in reach of 2 expansions and his nat. Like, what are you expecting to achieve at that point except dying to the death ball? However, I can personally sympathise with "choking" a lot, since I regularly do it myself IRL... On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote: The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is. Also with that style, Protoss is under an intangible pressure that he needs to do damage to Terran, otherwise the Gatewayman Shuttle army scales pretty bad against 3 2 Terran mech and you have no late game solution. But a good Terran denies your vision and impatient Protosses can overextend and pay for that. Keep in mind that as a viewer, you have full vision of the map but the Protoss players don't. So a lot of the times you think to yourself "So stupid attacking into that", but forget that the players have no clue. Like when Best flied 3 Shuttles into Mind's main on Sylphid only to meet a Bunker (not a common move for Terran), but of course if you already fly in you can't turn back. Hm, I think Best is actually not the best in picking the correct engagements but the best in making them work anyways somehow? Like, even in this ASL he attacked uphill into a depot wall and still managed to break it somehow. He executes those engagements very well, opposed to Bisu who often seems to do everything wrong in those engagements. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 19 2023 03:40 TMNT wrote: The best one with this kind of abilities is Snow. Other Protosses, including Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle (especially Shuttle) all tend to have "dumb" engagements like that. Mini vs Ssak earlier this season comes to mind. And if you watch Bisu's stream, it's almost comical sometimes how bad his engagement is. Huh, I've always found Best to be resourceful in finding useful ways to exchange his army without wasting it on the Terran's main force (in the high-supply, high-upgrade part of the game --- earlier on, he sometimes likes to do head-on timing attacks like the one that eliminated Light in this ASL). Good point about the vision. Mind gambled on building additional static defenses, and it really paid off. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 18 2023 15:24 Magic Powers wrote: People aren't giving Mind enough credit. Just saying Best played bad - which can certainly be argued - is ignoring the obvious: Mind's level of play was the best I've seen from him in a very long time. It's like he's received coaching by either Flash or Royal. Something's different about him, and it's not just the results. that is the thing many people miss about broodwar. super high level play with one race can make the opponent appear to play bad even if they arent. best did not play bad. mind played too good for him. | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
And that's fine, he's playing the perfect race for that kind of thing to be very successful. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria378 Posts
Championship mentality. Best playing defensively all ASL and he finally met someone who is also good at defensive play but also extremely calm and strategically-oriented. What did you think the result was gonna be? For the Protoss guys out there, Mind is the Terran Rain. Always big picture, planning and strategy first, execution second. | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
Anyway, reading all the complaints about this series makes me think us BW fans are a bit spoilt. A series doesn't have to have perfect decision-making and execution to be entertaining. This has been one of the best ASLs ever. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
On April 21 2023 14:42 Nirli wrote: Always bet on Mind. Championship mentality. Best playing defensively all ASL and he finally met someone who is also good at defensive play but also extremely calm and strategically-oriented. What did you think the result was gonna be? For the Protoss guys out there, Mind is the Terran Rain. Always big picture, planning and strategy first, execution second. rain has extremely good army movement and micro tho. or he used to | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria378 Posts
On April 21 2023 17:25 whylessness wrote: rain has extremely good army movement and micro tho. or he used to Never said he doesn't. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
I saw this game between  Shuttle and  Mind today in Proleague and it reminds me of exactly how Best should have handled this series. Shuttle played exactly like Best in terms of style in this game (he was stuck on shuttle templar tech for 35 minutes), except that he is a much worse PvT player than Best, while Mind played exactly like he played against Best.The mid game went awful for Shuttle as Mind faced almost no difficulty maxing out on 4 bases. But somehow it prevented Shuttle from suiciding his whole army into Mind's defending positions. Instead he focused on expanding and delaying Mind's death push with storm. By the time Mind was able to park at Shuttle's natural (and destroyed his nat and third bases) and have 6 bases himself (yes, 6 bases for Terran), Shuttle was already well set on the other corner of the map, mining on 4 bases himself and building all the extra gateways on the other main. From that point on, the game was all about Mind pushing and Shuttle defending with storm. The extra apm needed to control his army all over the map made Mind slipping up on his macro (he's not a high apm Terran), so despite having 6 bases he wasn't able to expand more. Meanwhile Shuttle got some juicy storms and he was able to start to counter and destroy 2 of Mind's bases (Terran can't cover the whole map effectively). The game ended with Shuttle mining from only his second main, but Mind just didn't have any mining base, then Shuttle was able to run him over with his army. It's funny because I feel like Shuttle got into that position not because he intended to play like that, but he was forced to defend. And he ended up winning. Meanwhile Best tried so hard to force the issue and ended up destroying his own army and his macro. | ||
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Piste
6180 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On April 21 2023 17:15 reincremate wrote: Mind has the mental fortitude of a former champ, which is a strong counter to perennial choking. Anyway, reading all the complaints about this series makes me think us BW fans are a bit spoilt. A series doesn't have to have perfect decision-making and execution to be entertaining. This has been one of the best ASLs ever. Couldn't agree more. It wasn't the most exciting series but the complaining is completely unwarranted. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
Best seems like a bad AI. Mindless macro no ability to shift and adapt. Looked behind the whole series. Not even some slick micro. Just gamble on being able to macro and throw hordes of zealots. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
On April 25 2023 00:39 RJBTV wrote: And snow very onesidedly destroyed Rush, Barracks, Royal and Light in the last couple Ultimate battles to counter argument the Tesagi sayers. But lost to Light in the last couple ASLs. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
Snow 7-2 Rush Snow 8-1 Royal Snow 7-2 Light 27 games and the top 3 Terrans in the world take a combined 5 games off Snow. I think he's at his peak PvT skill. But tbh I don't think it counters the Tesagi argument. Just like when Flash beat everyone with similar scores, it doesn't support Tesagi argument. Snow is just currently the Flash of PvT. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria378 Posts
Maybe this section is more suitable for the above discussion? The current thread is for people who are playing in the ASL final. | ||
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TMNT
3062 Posts
On April 25 2023 13:47 Nirli wrote: https://tl.net/forum/fan-clubs/ Maybe this section is more suitable for the above discussion? The current thread is for people who are playing in the ASL final. It's still relevant because the topic of discussion is Tesagi and one person suggested it was not the case because another Protoss can comfortably beat Terran. Even a little bit off topic is no problem and it's not like it's going on for 3 pages. More importantly, how about you stop being butthurt and act obnoxiously every time there's something related to Snow. We get it. You hate him. Get over it. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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oEkY
Germany649 Posts
On April 26 2023 23:22 QOGQOG wrote: I thought Mind had won this one, but Liquibets tell me I was wrong about that shhhhh!! i'm currently ranked #1 because of this fault!  | ||
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Piste
6180 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4131 Posts
On April 28 2023 01:11 Piste wrote: Will there be a third place match? I couldn't find any date for it. nope | ||
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Piste
6180 Posts
what? that is crazy! honestly was waiting for it more than the finals | ||
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