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On November 03 2020 02:10 Rainalcar wrote:ZvZ is viewers praying for Hive  Honestly, I can enjoy some ZvZs, but there is no way that any developer today would leave a matchup be where only three units are used. For further insult, ZvZ is likely a mirror with the highest potential of all mirrors by far (defensive power of the Lurker).
It's really interesting to think about that. Remember that they stopped applying balance patches before modern muta micro was a thing.
Mutas and lings simply are the best units in super low economy situations. Highly mobile, insane damage potential, very microable (esp. muta / scourge).
If they had touched the game once pro BW had developed, we might have ended up with the same ups and downs as SC2 has experienced. I'm glad they didn't do that. There are some very weird interactions in all matchups. Some are by design, some have been discovered by pro players. BW is a fundamentally broken game, which somehow works perfectly. Still blows my mind every time I watch it.
Basically, everything is imbalanced. It all comes down to the player.
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Larva was outclassed there. ZerO micro is pretty good with the snipes and balancing attack and defense.
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I don't think ZvsZ turned out the way it did because Mutas and lings are especially powerful. Give Zergs access to Archons and the matchup could very well turn out very differently. Give Terran the Mutalisk and TvT would still be a much slower matchup.
The biggest reason the ZvZ matchup looks the way it does, I feel, is the complete lack of any defenders advantage. Have 1 more Muta than your opponent? You can go kill him. No other matchup is as unforgiving. Having one more Tank in a TvT or Dragoon in a PvP is much less impactful. In all the other matchups there is much more room to come back from a slight disadvantage.
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On November 03 2020 04:12 Sr18 wrote:
I don't think ZvsZ turned out the way it did because Mutas and lings are especially powerful. Give Zergs access to Archons and the matchup could very well turn out very differently. Give Terran the Mutalisk and TvT would still be a much slower matchup.
The biggest reason the ZvZ matchup looks the way it does, I feel, is the complete lack of any defenders advantage. Have 1 more Muta than your opponent? You can go kill him. No other matchup is as unforgiving. Having one more Tank in a TvT or Dragoon in a PvP is much less impactful. In all the other matchups there is much more room to come back from a slight disadvantage.
I think PvP is almost exactly the same, it just takes slightly longer and is harder for the players to figure out who has the slight advantage so there's a lot more jockeying. There IS defender's advantage in PvP but the problem is there's no real way to break out of a contain so rather than just killing them with mutas, you just strangle them with a concave until the person with 1 more reaver or 2 more goons wins.
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On November 02 2020 19:24 Garrl wrote:
larva a drone behind but with almost the exact same timings, wtf? did he mess up his split or something?
Anyone else that noticed this? Imbalanced mineral placement or bad mineral targeting from Larva? Big advantage to Queen either way.
Match 1 32:40
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a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats:
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras
- mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts
both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air.
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On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats:
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras
- mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts
both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air.
Yes, and the Larvae system. With the unit sizes and damage types working the way they do, it's much more efficient to spend a Larva on a Mutalisk or Zergling than a Hydralisk. Plus Hydras need their upgrades to do really well, making it difficult to get them established.
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On November 03 2020 02:10 Rainalcar wrote:ZvZ is viewers praying for Hive Honestly, I can enjoy some ZvZs, but there is no way that any developer today would leave a matchup be where only three units are used. For further insult, ZvZ is likely a mirror with the highest potential of all mirrors by far (defensive power of the Lurker).
If there was some way to get past the midgame consistently ZvZ might be the best matchup in the game. Lurkers under swarm actually become dominant in lategame ZvZ.
Maybe if the devs had initially allowed spore colonies to be built without taking up larva (and made spores cost slightly less, like 100 flat) this could have helped ZvZ without affecting the other matchups too much. Or allow hydra to do full damage to muta without otherwise affecting the armor/unit types. Also, maybe have ZvZ played on specific Zerg only maps with more gas access + some other stuff (maybe some semi- island maps sometimes)
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Zero's coolest moment came in G3 imo.
He got ahead but then lost most of his drones when he decided to cancel the sunk. Afterwards he made a gamble to drone heavily while only have 4 muta for defense (arguably his only real way to win at that point). I feel like Larva made a big mistake here not keeping up some degree of ling pressure but maybe Zero's overlord spread was good enough that had he seen continued ling production he could have added more defense.
Still; seemed like a big gamble going straight drone for like 2 minutes
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On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats:
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras
- mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts
both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air.
Yes, and the fact that zerglings also receive only half damage from hydras really hurts hydras in ZvZ too.
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On November 03 2020 11:55 kaspa84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats:
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras
- mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts
both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air. Yes, and the fact that zerglings also receive only half damage from hydras really hurts hydras in ZvZ too.
Yes. Hydras are not that far away from being able to tackle mutas. No damage reduction could actually make them a superior tech tree. And then lurkers are a counter to hydras and you suddenly have tremendous potential. All the while there would certainly still be muta compositions, depending on maps.
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On November 03 2020 17:15 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2020 11:55 kaspa84 wrote:On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats:
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras
- mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts
both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air. Yes, and the fact that zerglings also receive only half damage from hydras really hurts hydras in ZvZ too. Zerglings are less of an issue imo. A few chokes and it's solved. And in big numbers hydras actually beat lings. Hydras are not that far away from being able to tackle mutas. No damage reduction could actually make them a superior tech tree. And then lurkers are a counter to hydras and you suddenly have tremendous potential. All the while there would certainly still be muta compositions, depending on maps.
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EPT
