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[ASL10] Semifinal B
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 15:54 konadora wrote: really hoping for tons of late game ZvZ god damn it, don't jinx it!!!! | ||
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WTCO
United States646 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Queen would have to beat the number 1 up and coming zerg to win the whole event. No matter what, the pecking order of the swarm is on the line. Queen is better then larva at many things (imo) and he is the only 'bigger-brain' zerg to compare Larva to. That said, Larva is a wildcat and a strategist. At his highest levels, he has reminded me of other zerg deities. I hope to get to see Larva continue his heroic-ly late spires, pushing the boundaries. I do not think Larva will win, but I have been predicting for the last year "One of these starleagues this guy is just going to just beast-mode his way to a title." If nervous Larva shows up, Queen should bop him, if final form Larva shows up, we maybe watching a rising with a higher peak then Soma. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
On November 02 2020 18:48 WTCO wrote: Hmmm, I wonder if this thread will have as much activity as last night's? We all know the answer  If we get a hive / devourers / two defiler mounds maybe  | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
I wonder how many games will pass the 20 minute mark though. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:13 yoshi245 wrote: Let's go LARVA! I wonder how many games will pass the 20 minute mark though. the number of games that will pass 20 minute mark is the ex id of the other player  | ||
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oxKnu
1181 Posts
Wow... | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
that or i see things... | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
Zero a bit behind | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
I really like zero but Larva is so funny and has a great family! I watch all his eating clips even if i do't understand a single word  | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:28 prosatan wrote: Larva attacks his own sunken...strange... that or i see things... he killed 1 his own zergling with a mutas there to free up supply | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:32 konadora wrote: really well played by larva Hey Kona !  Who did u choose for Liquibet? I went with zero | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
for a zvz | ||
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:33 chuDr3t4 wrote: he killed 1 his own zergling with a mutas there to free up supply aaaa thank you ! | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
Very far away from eachother! maybe we will finally get a hive ! | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:34 prosatan wrote: Hey Kona ! Who did u choose for Liquibet? I went with zero didnt liquibet but i think Larva would win, his play this ASL seems solid and has more diverse strategies | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
1-1 | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:51 Sif_ wrote: Why is Zero's id Queen? his brand, his youtube is queentube. also he is the one credited for using queens to end the latemech dominance. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:51 Sif_ wrote: Why is Zero's id Queen? He changed his id year ago and some people still call him his oldname. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
why cancel the sunken ????? | ||
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blackmanpl
65 Posts
yea quite unbelivable, he mindgamed himself | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
 larva blew that lead lol | ||
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
520 for queen INSANEEEEEE | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:57 NoS-Craig wrote: Kinda depressed for the ZvZ finals now. Let's pretend it's random vs random as it's all the hype atm, just that they always end up as zerg and their starsense allows them to know opponent got zerg as well. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Not sure how you win games when your opponent gets better then you as soon as more then one hotkey is involved. Must be a horrible feeling for Larva. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
edit: can you select more than 11 if you box-click them? | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:13 AttackZerg wrote: Queens 2 group muta movement is much better then Larva's, and his 3 control group control including scourge is significantly better. Not sure how you win games when your opponent gets better then you as soon as more then one hotkey is involved. Must be a horrible feeling for Larva. honestly, even his 1 group movement has been so much better this entire series, he's showing he's the better z by a large margin here. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:01 Kaal wrote: Artosis shilling for our savior jinjin5000 You mean jinjinn, the amazing translator who has established relationships with pro gamers to provide one-of-a-king content to the entire world? Dude is legit. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:15 Garrl wrote: honestly, even his 1 group movement has been so much better this entire series, he's showing he's the better z by a large margin here. I asked myself that and I couldn't decide. I do think the difference gets bigger the more units there are. But yeah, your right. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:15 Sif_ wrote: you cant hotkey more than 11 units in broodwar? is that where the difficulty comes from? edit: can you select more than 11 if you box-click them? You can't have more than 12 units in a hotkey group. Don't know where you got 11 from but the nature of muta micro involves 11 mutas and usually 1 overlord, which help forces the 11 mutas to stack on top of each other. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21689 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:15 Sif_ wrote: 12 units is the max you can select (11 muta's and 1 overlord to allow them to clump up).you cant hotkey more than 11 units in broodwar? is that where the difficulty comes from? edit: can you select more than 11 if you box-click them? There is no way to select more then that. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
3-1 gg ! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You can't have more than 12 units in a hotkey group. Don't know where you got 11 from but the nature of muta micro involves 11 mutas and usually 1 overlord, which help forces the 11 mutas to stack on top of each other. Oh, its cause tastosis mentioned that controlling got much harder after 11 mutas.. they never mentioned the need for an overlord in there aswell, haha | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:24 Sif_ wrote: Oh, its cause tastosis mentioned that controlling got much harder after 11 mutas.. they never mentioned the need for an overlord in there aswell, haha yeah you can't select more than 12 units in bw, it was a design decision though, they could have had more or even unlimited selection. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:24 Sif_ wrote: Oh, its cause tastosis mentioned that controlling got much harder after 11 mutas.. they never mentioned the need for an overlord in there aswell, haha They actually do occasionally. They used to do it every match a few years ago when they came back and were talking to a SC2 audience mostly. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
first time since 2011-12 OSL JangBi if I remember correctly. or is SoMa's ZvZ actually good enough to take out ZerO? | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
zero had everything going his way today, and his micro and decision-making was better too | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
at least we will have Flash vs Larva in the match for 3rd place ! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:36 prosatan wrote: 4-1 gg ! at least we will have Flash vs Larva in the match for 3rd place ! Oh snap! I forgot about this... Well that's a fun event to look forward to | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:24 Sif_ wrote: Oh, its cause tastosis mentioned that controlling got much harder after 11 mutas.. they never mentioned the need for an overlord in there aswell, haha i'm pretty sure they mentioned it even this cast oh well, larva tried. has a seed, but before season was talking about this being his last idk whenever I open his stream he is tryharding his heart out, be it Z or T | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:35 M3t4PhYzX wrote: looks like we are going to have a repeat champion that is not FlaSh.. first time since 2011-12 OSL JangBi if I remember correctly. or is SoMa's ZvZ actually good enough to take out ZerO? ZvZ can always go one way or the other tbh. Soma's ZvZ is pretty darn good and given the match up it's pretty much a 50-50 imho. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
He controls every factor as well as he can and mitigates risk in such a controled calm manner. Soma is going to need to play so good to beat Queen. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:40 Sif_ wrote: who do you guys favor in Flash vs Larva & Soma vs Zero? Flash and Soma but ZerO will likely win. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
maybe a miracle will actually happen and a wild hive tech ZvZ will appear fingers crossed! | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: Flash and Soma but ZerO will likely win. Wait you think Soma has the advantage but Zero will likely win? Or do you want Soma to win and think it will be Zero? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:47 Miragee wrote: Wait you think Soma has the advantage but Zero will likely win? Or do you want Soma to win and think it will be Zero? Want soma, think zero will win | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On November 02 2020 21:58 konadora wrote: silver lining is, i’m glad its flash vs larva because those 2 always made for some crazy games I want to see Flash do a footstargamer on Larva. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:15 Sif_ wrote: you cant hotkey more than 11 units in broodwar? is that where the difficulty comes from? edit: can you select more than 11 if you box-click them? Its 12 units. And no, there is no way to control more than 12 units at one time. And yes, that is where a significant amount of difficulty comes from. And you can only select a single building at a time. And say you have 4 high-templars selected and cast storm, they all cast storm. There is no "smartcasting". You have to cast your spells with only 1 unit selected. And the AI, pathing and targeting is so dumb and clunky so you have to actively control your units way more than in modern RTS games. The combination of these factors make the skill spread insane. I really enjoyed the zvzs today, Larva did get a bit stomped but there were exciting moments and interesting build orders facing off. When Queen canceled that sunken I was so mad! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8056 Posts
On November 02 2020 20:40 Sif_ wrote: who do you guys favor in Flash vs Larva & Soma vs Zero? Larva and zero ! My LB is on them! | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
I see Ling, Don't see other god damn thing... I'll at least try to tune in to the finals and so should you! Let's hope Soma can make Zero break some sweat. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
Honestly, I can enjoy some ZvZs, but there is no way that any developer today would leave a matchup be where only three units are used. For further insult, ZvZ is likely a mirror with the highest potential of all mirrors by far (defensive power of the Lurker). | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
As for the games, I was a ZvZ snoozer 10 years ago but as of the past 2-3 years I started to enjoy the intensity and brutality of it more and more. Queen is hellish but Larva made him work real hard. I do think it might be revolutionary finals or at least I hope so. I regard these two as the best Z's throughout the year. Queen should win it! Woongjin Stars forever fighting~~~~ | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
On November 03 2020 02:10 Rainalcar wrote: ZvZ is viewers praying for Hive Honestly, I can enjoy some ZvZs, but there is no way that any developer today would leave a matchup be where only three units are used. For further insult, ZvZ is likely a mirror with the highest potential of all mirrors by far (defensive power of the Lurker). It's really interesting to think about that. Remember that they stopped applying balance patches before modern muta micro was a thing. Mutas and lings simply are the best units in super low economy situations. Highly mobile, insane damage potential, very microable (esp. muta / scourge). If they had touched the game once pro BW had developed, we might have ended up with the same ups and downs as SC2 has experienced. I'm glad they didn't do that. There are some very weird interactions in all matchups. Some are by design, some have been discovered by pro players. BW is a fundamentally broken game, which somehow works perfectly. Still blows my mind every time I watch it. Basically, everything is imbalanced. It all comes down to the player. | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
The biggest reason the ZvZ matchup looks the way it does, I feel, is the complete lack of any defenders advantage. Have 1 more Muta than your opponent? You can go kill him. No other matchup is as unforgiving. Having one more Tank in a TvT or Dragoon in a PvP is much less impactful. In all the other matchups there is much more room to come back from a slight disadvantage. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On November 03 2020 04:12 Sr18 wrote: I don't think ZvsZ turned out the way it did because Mutas and lings are especially powerful. Give Zergs access to Archons and the matchup could very well turn out very differently. Give Terran the Mutalisk and TvT would still be a much slower matchup. The biggest reason the ZvZ matchup looks the way it does, I feel, is the complete lack of any defenders advantage. Have 1 more Muta than your opponent? You can go kill him. No other matchup is as unforgiving. Having one more Tank in a TvT or Dragoon in a PvP is much less impactful. In all the other matchups there is much more room to come back from a slight disadvantage. I think PvP is almost exactly the same, it just takes slightly longer and is harder for the players to figure out who has the slight advantage so there's a lot more jockeying. There IS defender's advantage in PvP but the problem is there's no real way to break out of a contain so rather than just killing them with mutas, you just strangle them with a concave until the person with 1 more reaver or 2 more goons wins. | ||
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Abjurer
Sweden208 Posts
On November 02 2020 19:24 Garrl wrote: larva a drone behind but with almost the exact same timings, wtf? did he mess up his split or something? Anyone else that noticed this? Imbalanced mineral placement or bad mineral targeting from Larva? Big advantage to Queen either way. Match 1 32:40 | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
- mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras - mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air. | ||
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Light-
United States25 Posts
On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote: a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats: - mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras - mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air. Yes, and the Larvae system. With the unit sizes and damage types working the way they do, it's much more efficient to spend a Larva on a Mutalisk or Zergling than a Hydralisk. Plus Hydras need their upgrades to do really well, making it difficult to get them established. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On November 03 2020 02:10 Rainalcar wrote: ZvZ is viewers praying for Hive Honestly, I can enjoy some ZvZs, but there is no way that any developer today would leave a matchup be where only three units are used. For further insult, ZvZ is likely a mirror with the highest potential of all mirrors by far (defensive power of the Lurker). If there was some way to get past the midgame consistently ZvZ might be the best matchup in the game. Lurkers under swarm actually become dominant in lategame ZvZ. Maybe if the devs had initially allowed spore colonies to be built without taking up larva (and made spores cost slightly less, like 100 flat) this could have helped ZvZ without affecting the other matchups too much. Or allow hydra to do full damage to muta without otherwise affecting the armor/unit types. Also, maybe have ZvZ played on specific Zerg only maps with more gas access + some other stuff (maybe some semi- island maps sometimes) | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
He got ahead but then lost most of his drones when he decided to cancel the sunk. Afterwards he made a gamble to drone heavily while only have 4 muta for defense (arguably his only real way to win at that point). I feel like Larva made a big mistake here not keeping up some degree of ling pressure but maybe Zero's overlord spread was good enough that had he seen continued ling production he could have added more defense. Still; seemed like a big gamble going straight drone for like 2 minutes | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On November 03 2020 07:10 -NegativeZero- wrote: a lot of it just boils down to pure unit stats: - mutas are the only "small" air unit, meaning they take half damage from hydras - mutas are the only tier 2 air unit that do equal damage to ground and air, instead of having a heavily reduced anti-ground attack like wraiths/scouts both of these combined leave Z as the only race without a strong ground counter against its own air. Yes, and the fact that zerglings also receive only half damage from hydras really hurts hydras in ZvZ too. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On November 03 2020 11:55 kaspa84 wrote: Yes, and the fact that zerglings also receive only half damage from hydras really hurts hydras in ZvZ too. Yes. Hydras are not that far away from being able to tackle mutas. No damage reduction could actually make them a superior tech tree. And then lurkers are a counter to hydras and you suddenly have tremendous potential. All the while there would certainly still be muta compositions, depending on maps. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On November 03 2020 17:15 Rainalcar wrote: Zerglings are less of an issue imo. A few chokes and it's solved. And in big numbers hydras actually beat lings. Hydras are not that far away from being able to tackle mutas. No damage reduction could actually make them a superior tech tree. And then lurkers are a counter to hydras and you suddenly have tremendous potential. All the while there would certainly still be muta compositions, depending on maps. | ||
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