On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008).
He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too.
He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time.
Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it.
I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks.
Was flashbacks an intentional pun? Because I rather enjoyed it.
One thing I absolutely love about the post-Kespa and streaming era is (via some generous translators we get snippets of how players like Flash think about the game in real-time, while playing and with only their map vision that are just levels above what even great casters who are still pretty good at the game can manage.
A terrible player plays blind. A mediocre Starcraft player reacts to what they scout. A decent one reacts to what they’re not scouting as well. A Flash knows exactly what his opponent is doing, how the next 5 minutes of the game are mapped out and when he’s going to kill them.
It’s a thing of beauty to watch these minds work on their subject of expertise.
On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008).
He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too.
He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time.
Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it.
I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks.
Edit: And if he loses in the Ro4 or finals, don't assume that his Random is done for. Flash didn't win his OSL as Terran either, but he never stops improving and he came back with a vengeance. He seems really serious about this.
On October 19 2020 06:47 WombaT wrote: It wasn’t the cleanest win set 2, but were we seeing some the advantage of Flash being the greatest Terran of all time?
Flash has a basically unparalleled knowledge of where the holes are where Terran are weak, and over years worked to fill and refine those builds and gameplay.
This. It was a testament to how far you can go by "just" doing the right thing at the right time, every time. His vulture defense wasn't perfect. His army control wasn't perfect. Not every reaver/HT drop was a winner. But he reaps so many rewards by always playing the right card.
So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders.
Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'...
Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator:
The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess).
Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now).
It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??"
On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008).
He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too.
He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time.
Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it.
I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks.
Edit: And if he loses in the Ro4 or finals, don't assume that his Random is done for. Flash didn't win his OSL as Terran either, but he never stops improving and he came back with a vengeance. He seems really serious about this.
On October 19 2020 06:47 WombaT wrote: It wasn’t the cleanest win set 2, but were we seeing some the advantage of Flash being the greatest Terran of all time?
Flash has a basically unparalleled knowledge of where the holes are where Terran are weak, and over years worked to fill and refine those builds and gameplay.
This. It was a testament to how far you can go by "just" doing the right thing at the right time, every time. His vulture defense wasn't perfect. His army control wasn't perfect. Not every reaver/HT drop was a winner. But he reaps so many rewards by always playing the right card.
So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders.
Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'...
Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator:
The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess).
Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now).
It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??"
buT fLaSh jUsT goT LuCKy!
-typical embittered envious 1500 mmr player who just wants to put down others to make themselves feel better
lol people are acting like flash with terran is like nadal on clay and that it's autolose... thats no where near the case. flash lost with his main race against zero last ASL... the tandom advantage is overplayed
even as a zerg fan i feel bad for rush.. guy wears his heart on sleeve, he's been around for a while but could just never get past ro24/ro16. then makes it to ro8 and gets matched up with flash.
Nobody should feel bad for Rush. He has reached a notorious level lately, and and his results are showing it. He is now the 2nd best terran behind only Light. Sure, his rank would be much lower if Flash hadnt switched to random, if Last hadnt wrist issues, etc... But the fact is that he left the "Ample Piano JyJ and friends" league to reach another level. I thought his performance against Flash is nothing to be ashamed of, and im sure hell come back stronger under ASL11CHAMPRUSH in a few weeks. =)
On October 19 2020 14:45 Motivate wrote: lol people are acting like flash with terran is like nadal on clay and that it's autolose... thats no where near the case. flash lost with his main race against zero last ASL... the tandom advantage is overplayed
For sure, Flash won't automatically win when he rolls T, at least not against the likes of Zero or Soulkey or Best.
That being said, I only just realized some very basic math: In any Bo5 that goes all the way to five games, the expectation value for the number of times a Random player rolls Terran is 1.67. The *most probable* number of times a Random player rolls Terran is 2. (That is, 2 is above average, but it's more likely than 1.) When you prepare a Bo5 against Random Flash, you're not prepared unless you're ready to face his Terran *twice*. That's scary.
Edit: The corollary is that Flash isn't prepared for, say, Soulkey unless Flash is ready to ZvZ twice.
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote: Watching the Korean pro reactions is hilarious. They're surprised by how well flash's storm drops and reaver scarabs were.
"that's hacking." "how is he landing those scarab hits so well?!" "his reaver's actually land all their shots, wow."
His PvT was Hella fun to watch. His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane.
It looked like Flash placed his reavers differently from how regular Protoss players do. Flash reinventing Protoss?
On October 19 2020 07:48 WombaT wrote: A terrible player plays blind. A mediocre Starcraft player reacts to what they scout. A decent one reacts to what they’re not scouting as well. A Flash knows exactly what his opponent is doing, how the next 5 minutes of the game are mapped out and when he’s going to kill them.
This, so much.
I'd paraphrase it this way
D players play blind C players react to what they scout and learn to deny scouting B players react to what they're not scouting and learns scout timings (ie first scan, first obs, first lings, overlord arrival) A players can predict the game state several minutes in advance from what they're scouting and visualize what the opponent thinks they see S players (like Flash) learn to control what they reveal to the opponent to manipulate them into bad decisions
The last talent (manipulating opponents into seeing the wrong picture or having the wrong set of assumptions) is at the heart of Flash's playstyle. Some of it is metagame related but a lot of it is in-game as well. I've noticed that in TvP, for example, Flash's screen will often hover on the Protoss obs but not kill it because he seems to be comfortable letting the Protoss see what he's doing - but he will often hide a wrinkle somewhere else that alters the state of the game. And in TvZ, his ability to manipulate Z's situational awareness is just masterful (and at the heart of most of his wins vs Jaedong).
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote:His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane.
The last time i manage to drop a reaver while dealing with a vultures drop and a vultures run by was in a team melee game when they gave me the pilot shuttle job, in 2004. Cant remember exactly but pretty sure i had not 16 kills on my reaver :-(
On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008).
He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too.
He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time.
Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it.
I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks.
Edit: And if he loses in the Ro4 or finals, don't assume that his Random is done for. Flash didn't win his OSL as Terran either, but he never stops improving and he came back with a vengeance. He seems really serious about this.
On October 19 2020 06:47 WombaT wrote: It wasn’t the cleanest win set 2, but were we seeing some the advantage of Flash being the greatest Terran of all time?
Flash has a basically unparalleled knowledge of where the holes are where Terran are weak, and over years worked to fill and refine those builds and gameplay.
This. It was a testament to how far you can go by "just" doing the right thing at the right time, every time. His vulture defense wasn't perfect. His army control wasn't perfect. Not every reaver/HT drop was a winner. But he reaps so many rewards by always playing the right card.
So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders.
Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'...
Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator: The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess).
Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now).
It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??"
Yeah I don't think Flash was 'throwing away' units in game 2, atleast not unintentionally. A terran needs to build up a critical mass of tanks to be able to move out on the map. Flash's entire strategy looked to be about denying that critical mass. From the drops to hurt the economy, where flash would gladly suicide shuttles, reavers and templars in return for scv kills to suicide his army to remove the Terran army rather then pull back after an initial successful engagement.
Does it matter if a Protoss 'throws' away his army if he can rebuild it faster then the Terran can and said Terran can't counter attack because he has no army left?
And people saying that a better Terran wouldn't be so down in supply are missing that the tactic isn't working because of the supply difference but is the cause of that supply difference.
On October 19 2020 14:45 Motivate wrote: lol people are acting like flash with terran is like nadal on clay and that it's autolose... thats no where near the case. flash lost with his main race against zero last ASL...
the "autolose" term is mostly used in the context of TvT vs Flash ...
EPT
