EPT
[ASL10] Ro8 Day 1
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
This is an impossible match to be 100% sure either way, imo. Rush is a world class Terran, two of Flashes races are not as good as rushes Terran. Rush has a rather poor tvt, considering his overall strength, so Flash should roll him there. If we have 3 TvZ's, Rush should win, if Flash gets 3 Terrans he should win, but the road inbetween has so many variables and on top of that, any protoss that is willing to cheese is always a threat to any terran. From an objective point of view, Rush should be the favorite, from an rts fan, I think it is fair to give Flash a 50/50 shot. The randomness will make Rush far more nervous then it will make Flash but, Flash is still human and playing ZvT vs Rush is a daunting task for all but a hand full of elite zergs. I cannot wait to see what happens, Flash made this entire tournament better with his historic and brave choice, but Rush is hungry and so close to the top. Gonna be awesome. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 12:50 whylessness wrote: i look forward to flash eliminating the last terran from the tournament. 😠 | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On October 18 2020 12:37 AttackZerg wrote: As always, thanks for making the thread Blind-rawR. This is an impossible match to be 100% sure either way, imo. Rush is a world class Terran, two of Flashes races are not as good as rushes Terran. Rush has a rather poor tvt, considering his overall strength, so Flash should roll him there. If we have 3 TvZ's, Rush should win, if Flash gets 3 Terrans he should win, but the road inbetween has so many variables and on top of that, any protoss that is willing to cheese is always a threat to any terran. From an objective point of view, Rush should be the favorite, from an rts fan, I think it is fair to give Flash a 50/50 shot. The randomness will make Rush far more nervous then it will make Flash but, Flash is still human and playing ZvT vs Rush is a daunting task for all but a hand full of elite zergs. I cannot wait to see what happens, Flash made this entire tournament better with his historic and brave choice, but Rush is hungry and so close to the top. Gonna be awesome. I have to disagree, Rush is strong in tvt... unless its offline match. Flash needs to roll zerg for Rush to have a even match, his imba decission making is too strong with Terran and Protoss. And then there are maps like Plasma and Ringing Bloom. Looks bad for Rush  | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
It's like Shine's "I saved this build for ten years to use against Flash" x10. Even if Flash wasn't by far the best player, he'd still be very successful because of coming up with builds and cheeses. He just doesn't use them as much as he could, because he doesn't need to. But now that he's no longer an obvious favorite, we get to see what he can conjure up, like the build from the first PvP against Snow. Skill-wise this is 50/50, but Flash's cleverness probably makes it more like 70/30. I'd be surprised if he doesn't pull off at least one "one time use" build that singlehandedly wins him the game, and that means Rush has to take 3 of the remaining 4 to win. | ||
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13006 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On October 18 2020 15:50 whaski wrote: I have to disagree, Rush is strong in tvt... I base my opinion of his TvT on less then 11 games where I saw him getting trounced pretty often. I think I saw him lose a tournament match in tvt fairly recently as well. If he is actually elite at tvt or something, my bad, I haven't been following his games for long. But, I did see him get stomped by much less terrans then Flash, so I stand by TvT being a dire straight for Rush. Poor was probably the wrong word in my initial post. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On October 18 2020 16:48 AttackZerg wrote: I base my opinion of his TvT on less then 11 games where I saw him getting trounced pretty often. I think I saw him lose a tournament match in tvt fairly recently as well. If he is actually elite at tvt or something, my bad, I haven't been following his games for long. But, I did see him get stomped by much less terrans then Flash, so I stand by TvT being a dire straight for Rush. Poor was probably the wrong word in my initial post. I mean he is good online, it clearly doesn't transfer into this ASL. I bet you he will look just as bad in other matchups against Flash... | ||
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
On October 18 2020 16:34 RowdierBob wrote: Pumped for this. Flash playing random has been great for the tourney. Appointment viewing! Sea's stream had 70k+ viewers and Bisu had another 20k, be interesting to see what the viewership is tonight. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
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Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
Lets go!!! | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On October 18 2020 18:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: well hopefully this doesn't end up being a sub 1hr broadcast Do you predict 3-0 or 3-1 for Flash? | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
On October 18 2020 18:40 Garnet wrote: When did Rush become a thing? never heard of him before. He won one of CasterMuse's starleagues beating pretty nice names on the way. But I think there's no chance Flash doesn't take this. | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
M&M push is so scary for new Z players. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
I can't believe this day came. On October 18 2020 19:07 superjoppe wrote: I think Rush is hoping for TvZ. M&M push is so scary for new Z players. I wouldn't say Flash is exactly a new player. He's been playing for a decade and surely practiced other races timings to understand other races He's not a top level zerg tho | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
I never get tired of seeing those numbers | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
Flash terran. Artosis: "Alright, starts out 1-0." | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/564418-asl10-ro8-preview-p1-season-of-storylines you want my prediction, read my prediction. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
That is insane and the more you think about it, the crazier is it. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 18 2020 18:57 whiterabbit wrote: He won one of CasterMuse's starleagues beating pretty nice names on the way. But I think there's no chance Flash doesn't take this. rush has been a thing for a long time, he had a good run in 2016 | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:19 AttackZerg wrote: Flash is so good, that a mirror match is considered a near certain win. That is insane and the more you think about it, the crazier is it. It is probably autowin if this was a normal map not some kind of semi-island map | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
edit: I should have known never to doubt flash | ||
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:15 SenorChang wrote: please starcraft gods, be with Flash tonight Gods need Flash, not him | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:25 Garrl wrote: flash's eco is kinda trashed actually, but i think he still wins this easily Yeah but it is still 2 cc vs 1 cc and way more tech. Rush almost won tho | ||
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:19 AttackZerg wrote: Flash is so good, that a mirror match is considered a near certain win. That is insane and the more you think about it, the crazier is it. I remember JvZ back when I was a teenager. That's the only other example I can think of. Really crazy. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:24 Sorusaba wrote: this game is already amazing I expected an ez win but ended up with a short nailbiting game | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
Got scary a little bit there, but in this day and age, we should know better than to doubt Flash | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:27 superjoppe wrote: I remember JvZ back when I was a teenager. That's the only other example I can think of. Really crazy. Rain's PvP before he dropped off the face of the earth was 83% win rate. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:32 EsportsJohn wrote: Rain's PvP before he dropped off the face of the earth was 83% win rate. Yea Rain was insane PvP, in SC2 too he had a really nice streak of PvP in HotS iirc. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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WTCO
United States646 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:35 WTCO wrote: Thought Flash got T again lol I was already thinking "oh no 2-0 already" till i realized the color is wrong lol | ||
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:38 goody153 wrote: Anybody watching Flash pvt ? how well is it on streams ? Supposedly his best off-race match-up, beating top terrans with it as far as I've heard | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/618460623478456320/767335841764737024/best_protoss_small.jpg) text free version of cursed image. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:40 BLinD-RawR wrote: text free version of cursed image. ROFL | ||
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:38 goody153 wrote: Anybody watching Flash pvt ? how well is it on streams ? can't be too bad considering he won his ro16 winners match in 2 PvP's snow, how he goes in a PvT, remains to be seen! | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
But oof, the reaver blew up like 10+ SCVs too | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
that was def more than 20 scv's | ||
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:46 marcesr wrote: What an amazing series so far! Only 300 people on the English stream? 10k on youtube | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:46 marcesr wrote: What an amazing series so far! Only 300 people on the English stream? 9906 on youtube stream, counter sometimes freezes | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
kinda refresheing how much lack of preservation he has over it | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21679 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1074 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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GTR
51449 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:53 Shady Sands wrote: Flash plays PvT like a psycho butcher lmao. No subtlety, no fancy gimmicks, just relentless meat-axe attacks on the Terran Well put Flash PvT just looks so straightforward and disgusting LOL | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:52 Garrl wrote: honestly starting to worry for flash here, he attacked into 3/2 with his terrible upgrades 50 supply head lol. And tons of bases. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:47 ShloobeR wrote: Flash's scarabs refuse to dud out ! positioning, flash was just able to drop them in the right spot with as little pathing issues as possible so they wouldn't dud. | ||
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:54 GTR wrote: watch flash random zerg three times and lose lol don't jinx him >_< | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21679 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:53 Shady Sands wrote: Yeah, constant eco harassment so the Terran can't build up enough of an army and then bulldoze it into the ground. Flash didn't take out the 3e but went deep to wipe the army because he knew he could macro up another army faster then the Terran can and eventually the Terran will crack.Flash plays PvT like a psycho butcher lmao. No subtlety, no fancy gimmicks, just relentless meat-axe attacks on the Terran | ||
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:54 GTR wrote: watch flash random zerg three times and lose lol Maybe if he also broke his arm. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:54 GTR wrote: watch flash random zerg three times and lose lol this would be hilarious lol tho i still wanna see more flash next round cause random is just so much fuckton more fun to watch | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:53 Shady Sands wrote: Flash plays PvT like a psycho butcher lmao. No subtlety, no fancy gimmicks, just relentless meat-axe attacks on the Terran So true, no real finesse, just pounding. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:56 Terrakin wrote: really liking Flash's storm drops It did waaaaaaaay too many worker kills | ||
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allmylifethereyougo
United Kingdom24 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:54 goody153 wrote: Well put Flash PvT just looks so straightforward and disgusting LOL Since P is a race that gets a lot of value out of microing key units, most P players baby their units a lot and hence focus on micro.... Flash thinks at a more operational level so he's totally willing to trade high-value P units if he thinks he can get damage done, which is not how most P players think Artosis put it really well, of all the Protosses, Flash gives the least amount of shits about his units | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1074 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:59 Shady Sands wrote: Since P is a race that gets a lot of value out of microing key units, most P players baby their units a lot and hence focus on micro.... Flash thinks at a more operational level so he's totally willing to trade high-value P units if he thinks he can get damage done, which is not how most P players think Artosis put it really well, of all the Protosses, Flash gives the least amount of shits about his units Flash going Taldarim Protoss than Aiur protoss keeping units alive. It is all about the message and damage baby | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:58 meegrean wrote: Protoss progamers can learn from Flash's PvT heh Letmelose did an analysis once where he showed Flash's TvP is his most dominant matchup relative to other Terran players, so it's not surprising that he does well in the reverse MU | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
Lol the gods are on Flash's side | ||
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GTR
51449 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Estraizher
289 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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zonkee
Germany46 Posts
GGs | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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rotta
5587 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:56 Gorsameth wrote: Yeah, constant eco harassment so the Terran can't build up enough of an army and then bulldoze it into the ground. Flash didn't take out the 3e but went deep to wipe the army because he knew he could macro up another army faster then the Terran can and eventually the Terran will crack. Sort of like Best but with worse micro but a better understanding of what the Terran is trying to do at any given time | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 18 2020 19:55 KobraKay wrote: Now Flash rolls Z and if he wins Rush will never get to think "what if". Got it. 100% win rate as random saved now with at least one game with all races! | ||
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
well, I look forward to flash racepicking next season of ASL, apparently random isn't enough of a handicap | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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GTR
51449 Posts
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekm033XUcAAwiB_?format=jpg&name=large) | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
LOL -_- | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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ZiZzy
Germany7 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
And unironically has the highest zerg and protoss winrate on officials LMAO | ||
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Xiberia
Sweden634 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:02 yoshi245 wrote: LOL, Rush you poor bastard. Thanks for participating in the experiment at least. LOL | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
What was the thinking behind quick pool as random on that map? | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. Game 3 I'll say it was fortunate but why do you think game 1 was lucky? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. It didn't matter if he was lucky. Only results does. Rush has a chance to fight for his win but he didn't. They both started each game fairly after all with equal amount of workers | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. "lucky". Ever heard of the expression "The more I practice the luckier I get"? | ||
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allmylifethereyougo
United Kingdom24 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. Game 1 wasn't lucky. Flash did a lot of little things exactly right to make it look easy. Even not getting that Bunker up at the eggs might have been a difference maker. Game 3 was lucky. | ||
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ZZZero.O
Poland1515 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:05 Shady Sands wrote: What... Game 3 is over already????? 7 pool vs bbs and it got scouted quick. | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:05 superjoppe wrote: "lucky". Ever heard of the expression "The more I practice the luckier I get"? Flash's star sense is too large. | ||
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
I'm beginning to wonder if the combo of Flash's game sense and algorithmic style of play is broken when combined with the scouting burden and suboptimal decision tree for the other player | ||
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allmylifethereyougo
United Kingdom24 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. game 1 was a complete tactical victory made from quick decisions under pressure | ||
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Xiberia
Sweden634 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 sudete wrote: Game 3 I'll say it was fortunate but why do you think game 1 was lucky? He picked the exact build to counter Rush's build without scouting anything and the bunker at the front finished the exact second the SCV died. If he had gone for anything but 2port he might've gotten flattened. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:06 darktreb wrote: Game 1 wasn't lucky. Flash did a lot of little things exactly right to make it look easy. Even not getting that Bunker up at the eggs might have been a difference maker. Game 3 was lucky. lucky? maybe, I mean he was looking for the rax and he found it. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 Xiberia wrote: Is it just me or was both game 1 and 3 very lucky for Flash? Obviously a fantastic player but i wasn't really impressed by those games. I'd say Flash's build in game 3 was pretty well calculated, considering the map and the fact that he's random. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 RKC wrote: WTF... I thought Flash would've fast expo-ed and died... Star sense too strong! What was the thinking behind quick pool as random on that map? It is auto win vs fast CC + good vs BBs.. so yeah Im not surprised he chose this I actually thought he might even 4/5 pool | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:07 Xiberia wrote: He picked the exact build to counter Rush's build without scouting anything and the bunker at the front finished the exact second the SCV died. If he had gone for anything but 2port he might've gotten flattened. He did scout it. He saw the marine blocking the ramp on a random location and the lack of structures on the base. Then saw the tank and vultures breaking the eggs. He even built two bunkers remember even before the push hit ? | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TdX
Singapore290 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:04 RKC wrote: WTF... I thought Flash would've fast expo-ed and died... Star sense too strong! What was the thinking behind quick pool as random on that map? If Flash rolls T or P, he won't scout immediately, so it is safer for opponents to go fast expand So the idea is to rush opp down Rush is thinking, if Flash is not scouting me early, I can rush him down The thinking is reasonable but game theory wise is probably not the best decision, I think. 7-8 pool just beats proxy raxes. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:06 BLinD-RawR wrote: 7 pool vs bbs and it got scouted quick. Jeezus. If you think about it that's a genius move 7pool kills bbs, 14cc, and puts heavy pressure on rax/gas... which, incidentally, are the 3 most logical builds for T vs random | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
I am really happy with the result though, BW hasn't been as exciting as this for quite a while for me. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Just play safe and solid. Even if you're at disadvantage early game, just gradually chip your way for the win against Flash's P/Z (Flash Terran is just an auto-loss, too bad). | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
On October 18 2020 12:22 meegrean wrote: Flash 3-0 I was right! | ||
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MaZza[KIS]
Australia2110 Posts
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allmylifethereyougo
United Kingdom24 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:13 RKC wrote: Yeah, seems like players are mind-gaming themselves too much against Flash's random. Just play safe and solid. Even if you're at disadvantage early game, just gradually chip your way for the win against Flash's P/Z (Flash Terran is just an auto-loss, too bad). is the strat to just not practice vs T matchups then? since nobody is going to win those games anyway | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
LMAO On October 18 2020 20:11 True_Spike wrote: So far it seems like people playing Flash kill themselves with the way they open the games. I am really happy with the result though, BW hasn't been as exciting as this for quite a while for me. Some of his opponents got lucky like Snow with game 2 opening Nexus first against him then he killed him still. This tournament is as exciting to me as the island map ASL (sparkle i think was the map name) maaaaaaaaan that tournament was sooooooooo fun | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:13 RKC wrote: Yeah, seems like players are mind-gaming themselves too much against Flash's random. Just play safe and solid. Even if you're at disadvantage early game, just gradually chip your way for the win against Flash's P/Z (Flash Terran is just an auto-loss, too bad). The game on Eclipse showed that's not enough, even when you get a 14cc vs 12 nex game. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:14 allmylifethereyougo wrote: is the strat to just not practice vs T matchups then? since nobody is going to win those games anyway LMAO This is so funny because there is some sense on this. I mean if you are terran and you meet Flash on the bracket that is happening | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
And when the game gets weird, higher chance of Flash to prevail due to starsense. | ||
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thezanursic
5479 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:15 Garrl wrote: The game on Eclipse showed that's not enough, even when you get a 14cc vs 12 nex game. He wasn't exactly playing it safe going for a vulture drop from a proxy starport. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:14 goody153 wrote: "What if his Random is more dominant than his terran and wins without losing. Like what does that even mean" - Artosis LMAO Some of his opponents got lucky like Snow with game 2 opening Nexus first against him then he killed him still. This tournament is as exciting to me as the island map ASL (sparkle i think was the map name) maaaaaaaaan that tournament was sooooooooo fun I don't think that was lucky at all, FE builds are fairly easy to crush in PvP (Flash didn't react properly and Snow still handed him the game later with his goon move-out and mismicro here and there). If anything, Flash got lucky that game. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:15 Garrl wrote: The game on Eclipse showed that's not enough, even when you get a 14cc vs 12 nex game. Rush blew his advantage by risking with the vulture drop. He could've just soft-contained Flash, and macro up. Maybe Rush would still lose in late-game anyway. But the point is that Rush contributed to his own quick downfall by making risky moves. | ||
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ideahitme
1 Post
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:17 True_Spike wrote: He wasn't exactly playing it safe going for a vulture drop from a proxy starport. Rush probably wins if Flash didn't also kill waaay more workers with reavers than Rush vult drop | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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goody153
44122 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:19 Dante08 wrote: Zerg has the best chance vs Flash since Flash wouldn't be as good in muta micro and Zerg has an advantage ZvP. Yeah. After that Snow series which makes his PvP really ambigious for the rest of the remaining toss he could face in the tournament. No way flash is winning zvz against those who grind their lives with it His vs T is obviously too good because his terran random is almost autowin | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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allmylifethereyougo
United Kingdom24 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:21 oxKnu wrote: Flash won't win this ASl because of the Zergs. Soulkey won't fall for any of this shit. this is a good point. when he's in form, soulkey strikes me as being one of the most intelligent players currently in the business | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:21 oxKnu wrote: Flash won't win this ASl because of the Zergs. Soulkey won't fall for any of this shit. Soulkey will get eliminated this round tho. But I think next round snow will overcome flash. | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:29 Garnet wrote: I think the only way to beat Flash is going Random yourself. at least you wouldn't have to play tvt vs flash. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:26 KobraKay wrote: Soulkey will get eliminated this round tho. But I think next round snow will overcome flash. I know better to never bet on larva winning a zvz match tho... | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13006 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
Highest win rate Terran. Highest win rate Protoss. Highest win rate Zerg. Highest win rate Random. Now he’s just going for 100% completion achievement. Someone remake the Jaedong mustache Zerg meme except with flash as alternate races. | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
Flash is insane. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Not saying the idea was wise. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:45 RKC wrote: To Rush's credit, probably his gameplan was: "I fast-CC blind in G2. Flash thinks I will fast-CC again in G3. So he'll fast-expo in return (as Terran, Protoss, or even Zerg). But I proxy rax to kill his fast expo. Hah!" Not saying the idea was wise. "I'll try to outsmart Flash" Famous last words. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
at the end, the korean cast said: “Blizzard may have made Starcraft, but Flash perfected it” | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34491 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:55 konadora wrote: goddamn at the end, the korean cast said: “Blizzard may have made Starcraft, but Flash perfected it” this is a statement that deserves to be enshrined. God. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
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ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:22 ShAsTa wrote: The tvt was actually the closest game. Which happens to be the game that Rush played safest, standard, and reactive. Sure, he was slightly BO disadvantaged, but he nearly clawed back into the game. I still feel this is the most optimal strat against Flash rendom. As someone said, a safe solid Zerg like Soulkey will be his kryptonite. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:29 RKC wrote: Which happens to be the game that Rush played safest, standard, and reactive. Sure, he was slightly BO disadvantaged, but he nearly clawed back into the game. I still feel this is the most optimal strat against Flash rendom. As someone said, a safe solid Zerg like Soulkey will be his kryptonite. What? proxy double rax is anything but standard, safe and reactive. He was doing that before he scouted flash, let alone what build he was doing to be anywhere near close to "reactive". | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:39 KobraKay wrote: What? proxy double rax is anything but standard, safe and reactive. He was doing that before he scouted flash, let alone what build he was doing to be anywhere near close to "reactive". What? G1: TvT, Flash fast-CC, Rush proxy double-fac, Flash double-port... | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Still can't believe hundreds of thousands are watching LoL instead of flash flexing on the entire scene. Yeah I get faker is good but damn... He is Nowhere near the dominance and skill of flash. Not even fking close. Edit: I know that faker ain't even in worlds | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:50 RKC wrote: What? G1: TvT, Flash fast-CC, Rush proxy double-fac, Flash double-port... Is there such a thing as a standard build on Plasma anyway... | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
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jtkirk
33 Posts
On October 18 2020 22:07 Oystein wrote: Is there a way to watch ASL games spoiler free on VODs? I opened the VOD today and its 90m long for the entire match and you know its gonna be a 3-0 or the very least you will know who wins the last game ahead of time. Try installing plugin called "Anticipation" for Youtube. It will disable the time progress bar and you will only be able to watch videos from beginning and move forward/backward using left/right key. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
On October 18 2020 22:07 Oystein wrote: Is there a way to watch ASL games spoiler free on VODs? I opened the VOD today and its 90m long for the entire match and you know its gonna be a 3-0 or the very least you will know who wins the last game ahead of time. yeah some guy made an add-on for firefox that hides the progress bar, I think it's this? https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/anti-spoiler-for-videos/ edit: ^ definitely that, it specifically lists afreecaTV as being spoiler-free too | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:57 TaardadAiel wrote: Is there such a thing as a standard build on Plasma anyway... I suppose Flash's fast-expo would be 'standard' for a semi-island map. Then again, Flash took the expo at his third, rather than the gas-less natural - which is rather 'greedy'? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25315 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On October 18 2020 23:49 intotheheart wrote: Is he killing the scene though? I wonder if players are gonna just be demoralized because they lost to some guy playing Random. Flash = "Some guy" Lol | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On October 19 2020 00:07 intotheheart wrote: I mean, he might've been the best Terran in history, but it'd suck to lose to him playing Random either way. Especially in a tournament. you could see Snow was kinda handling it well, but Rush looked like he was about to throw up right there. Also, that evil laughter from Flash. Its the type of stupid laughter you can't control when you pranked someone and it totally worked ... | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: lucky? maybe, I mean he was looking for the rax and he found it. Lol | ||
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Ideas
United States8099 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:51 Golgotha wrote: If soma can beat snow and Soulkey loses... I can see Flash winning this tournament. It would go down as one of the greatest esport accomplishments of all time. Let's go Flash! Still can't believe hundreds of thousands are watching LoL instead of flash flexing on the entire scene. Yeah I get faker is good but damn... He is Nowhere near the dominance and skill of flash. Not even fking close. Edit: I know that faker ain't even in worlds Any reason you think Soulkey would have a better chance than Queen in beating Flash? Seems to me Queen is playing better than Soulkey right now. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8025 Posts
On October 18 2020 20:55 konadora wrote: goddamn at the end, the korean cast said: “Blizzard may have made Starcraft, but Flash perfected it” Nice one Kona  | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On October 18 2020 22:07 Oystein wrote: Is there a way to watch ASL games spoiler free on VODs? I opened the VOD today and its 90m long for the entire match and you know its gonna be a 3-0 or the very least you will know who wins the last game ahead of time. If you don't like the addon which the other people suggested: It's not 100% safe, but I managed to catch Flash's last two series spoiler-free because they actually added five VoDs for each series, all with a plausible lengths but the last two duds, to not spoiler people. Just go to the Korean Stream via the link in the official TL-thread for the match in question (or by your method of choice). Click on the icon in the bottom-left of the stream to "go to Blog", then proceed to the VoD-section. (Guess you know that...) Pick the first VoD of the series (furthest down and to the right, they put the players' faces in the thumbnail). (Try to not look at the VoD-lengths if you can, just to be extra save. As you mentioned, there is that 90min full-show-VoD, but I think you can avoid glimpsing at it quite well. Same goes for the viewer-numbers, as the last games will have less, obviously, if the series didn't go the distance.) | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
No words | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
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adrft
5 Posts
Just think about the other side of it though.. how many games do they have to play before Snow wins 2 maps TvT vs Flash? 100? 1000? Rush PvT vs Flash too. I still think its unlikely he wins. Snow is dangerous but doable, but can he really beat soma then another Z (probably Queen) back to back? That seems almost impossible. I really really want to see his PvZ. I've seen one streamed game and it looked quite good but we don't really know. He has to be able to reliably win PvZ vs those top Z's to have a real chance to win I think. Hes probably what 25% chance to win a ZvZ? And 60-70% to win TvZ? (maybe a bit lower vs Queen). So he needs his PvZ to be at least 50-55% vs the best Z's in the world to have a reasonable chance I think. Either way I can't wait to watch it haha. | ||
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
If Snow knocks out Soma then Flash can possibly tick off the ZvP on the way to the finals. Then some combo of Queen/Larva/Soulkey in the finals lets him clean up with ZvZ, PvZ, TvZ. There you have it: Flash could win ASL10 while winning every possible match up. THAT would be crazy | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I think The Infested Terran would be appropriate if he wins ZvZs in the final. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21679 Posts
On October 19 2020 02:42 Antisocialmunky wrote: His current nickname of Ultimate Weapon seems appropriate when he has the highest winrate for Terran, Protross, Zerg and Random :pWhat's Flash's new nickname now? I think Nick called him the Shapeshifter. I think The Infested Terran would be appropriate if he wins ZvZs in the final. or simply God. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:51 Golgotha wrote: If soma can beat snow and Soulkey loses... I can see Flash winning this tournament. It would go down as one of the greatest esport accomplishments of all time. Let's go Flash! Still can't believe hundreds of thousands are watching LoL instead of flash flexing on the entire scene. Yeah I get faker is good but damn... He is Nowhere near the dominance and skill of flash. Not even fking close. Edit: I know that faker ain't even in worlds not that hard to understand, League is easily one of the 5 most popular esports in the world, and RTS games aren't close to that level. Flash played game 2 differently than I've seen other players in his situation, I wonder if he was just so far ahead he knew he had a guaranteed victory after his first push no matter what he did , or if he thinks that's the best way to play that position while even. | ||
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Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
On October 18 2020 23:14 Blargh wrote: This man hasn't lost a map as Random in Broodwar. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? He actually has. Before ASL, there were some showmatches a little over 2 months ago. Obviously he's gotten better since. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
On October 19 2020 03:35 Malongo wrote: man flash makes BW boring to watch :/ It's the opposite for me, Flash makes BW so interesting. He plays at such a different level from other players. I'm interested to see how he will play RvZ, since he said it was his weakest matchup. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On October 19 2020 03:35 Malongo wrote: man flash makes BW boring to watch :/ Yeah same. I mean yes, he is absolutely impressive but I just can't bring myself to care or get excited at all. Also matches with random suck. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On October 19 2020 03:50 Nemesis wrote: It's the opposite for me, Flash makes BW so interesting. He plays at such a different level from other players. I'm interested to see how he will play RvZ, since he said it was his weakest matchup. On October 19 2020 03:59 Miragee wrote: Yeah same. I mean yes, he is absolutely impressive but I just can't bring myself to care or get excited at all. Also matches with random suck. Yeah he is super good. It's basically like watching Leela against a 2000 elo chess player. Today Rush was bashed and he looked super depressed too. May as well make him play against BW alpha zero now that think of it. (Flash) | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On October 19 2020 03:35 Malongo wrote: man flash makes BW boring to watch :/ On October 19 2020 03:59 Miragee wrote: Yeah same. I mean yes, he is absolutely impressive but I just can't bring myself to care or get excited at all. Also matches with random suck. You could say that if he won 2-3 ASLs as random, but right now? Your excitement with the game must be on a low then... or it's a personal grudge against Flash or s.th. The best player in the world is making a crazy move to make his games not be easy to predict anymore for the first time in years... The guy is shattering one of the big, long-living BW certainties out there: "You cannot compete as random on the highest level since Koreans became really good" (somethings like that). If anything, it's that he is lacking real competition because the others somewhat stopped keeping up. One cannot be sure about these things, but I feel that the slight advantage that Flash had over his strong rivals at any point of his career is just looking bigger now because those rivals have lost steam (or are gone to other games/things)... I wonder if anyone still puts as much work into getting/staying good as Flash is. Still, he looked vulnerable in his PvT today at one point, a better Terran could've handled his shuttles better. Snow could've taken at least one game of him in the Ro16... He just made a rather basic mistake, not defending when he just had to defend. Flash's not unbeatable, it's just that the others are not crisp as they were, I feel... | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
Game 1: Looked absolutely great from Flash. I really think this was his best game, his double bunker reaction to slow his opponent down was just on point. No complaints here. Game 2: His shuttle drops are a bit of a mixed bag for me. Definitely got damage done, but also lost a lot on these attacks. I feel like versus a stronger opponent he won't be able to get away with constantly throwing away shuttles/reavers/units like that. Similarly I don't think Flash's army control was top notch this game. Some of the engages were questionable. He was never really in risk of losing because his supply lead was just so much, but it felt like he won't be able to get away with those kind of engages in a more-even match. Game 3: Really early scout after basically delayed scouting in every other game of the tournament. Felt unlucky for Rush, but decent play from Flash. Not a lot was learned from this game. So after the 3 games today, I'm really only feeling super confident about his Terran. I think his Protoss definitely was showing some cracks. Since there aren't any T left in the tournament though, maybe the PvT cracks no longer matter. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
On October 19 2020 05:01 ExO_ wrote: I feel like versus a stronger opponent he won't be able to get away with constantly throwing away shuttles/reavers/units like that. This entire point collapses when you realize that the only stronger TvP player than Rush is likely Light and even that is dubious. There are no stronger TvP players than Rush and Light. Flash handled Rush with amazing grace. Even the drops you question to me somehow felt calculated and even losing he was never in a shaky position. And this was against CC first, the most economical opening. This BO5 was a gem, imo, a shining testament to his skill and understanding. | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 19 2020 04:36 mierin wrote: I mean, didn't Flash literally lose to Zero last season as his main race? I mean I get he's a fantastic player but these whole "he's just bored of the game lol what a god solved starcraft" conversations are getting out of hand. Let's wait until he's won this season at least before starting down that road. Barely lost to zero being stubborn as fuck that he would win only on mind games (as per his own words). That's why last season's results are not really valued by many. A lot of good vT maps in the last few ASLs have also skewed people's perception without people even realizing, specially if the english cast doesnt focus a lot on this, people seem to either miss it or forget it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On October 19 2020 05:30 JoinTheRain wrote: This entire point collapses when you realize that the only stronger TvP player than Rush is likely Light and even that is dubious. There are no stronger TvP players than Rush and Light. Flash handled Rush with amazing grace. Even the drops you question to me somehow felt calculated and even losing he was never in a shaky position. And this was against CC first, the most economical opening. This BO5 was a gem, imo, a shining testament to his skill and understanding. Unfortunately I’m no BW expert, in fact not even much of an educated layman. It wasn’t the cleanest win set 2, but were we seeing some the advantage of Flash being the greatest Terran of all time? Flash has a basically unparalleled knowledge of where the holes are where Terran are weak, and over years worked to fill and refine those builds and gameplay. I’m assuming his galaxy brain can parse the game state incredibly well and open up windows where he thinks the optimal way to win is, based off his peerless Terran. Windows maybe even top PvT players might choose not to go down, but may work. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too. He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time. Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it. I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks. Edit: And if he loses in the Ro4 or finals, don't assume that his Random is done for. Flash didn't win his OSL as Terran either, but he never stops improving and he came back with a vengeance. He seems really serious about this. On October 19 2020 06:47 WombaT wrote: It wasn’t the cleanest win set 2, but were we seeing some the advantage of Flash being the greatest Terran of all time? Flash has a basically unparalleled knowledge of where the holes are where Terran are weak, and over years worked to fill and refine those builds and gameplay. This. It was a testament to how far you can go by "just" doing the right thing at the right time, every time. His vulture defense wasn't perfect. His army control wasn't perfect. Not every reaver/HT drop was a winner. But he reaps so many rewards by always playing the right card. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008). He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too. He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time. Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it. I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks. Was flashbacks an intentional pun? Because I rather enjoyed it. One thing I absolutely love about the post-Kespa and streaming era is (via some generous translators we get snippets of how players like Flash think about the game in real-time, while playing and with only their map vision that are just levels above what even great casters who are still pretty good at the game can manage. A terrible player plays blind. A mediocre Starcraft player reacts to what they scout. A decent one reacts to what they’re not scouting as well. A Flash knows exactly what his opponent is doing, how the next 5 minutes of the game are mapped out and when he’s going to kill them. It’s a thing of beauty to watch these minds work on their subject of expertise. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On October 19 2020 04:09 Malongo wrote: Yeah he is super good. It's basically like watching Leela against a 2000 elo chess player. I'm 2000 Elo and my games against Leela are very interesting. Here is one, I am white - forgot to upload game details. Time control was 3/0 https://lichess.org/Cfs65c2S/black#0 (for anyone who watches - I did not see rxh3 before it was unstoppable) | ||
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Nukid
United States240 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 19 2020 07:36 Djabanete wrote: This all reminds of Flash's early days as a Terran (2007--2008). He could only win with cheese... until it turned out he could beat anyone in a long game, too. He may not have been mechanically perfect... but it didn't matter. He had maphacks in his head. He always did the right thing at the right time. Spectators complained that his opponents seemed to make unforced mistakes or choke... until at last people connected the dots and realized that losing isn't choking if Flash is the best, and it's not an unforced mistake if Flash forced the opponent to make it. I dunno how far he'll get with R, but I'm getting flashbacks. Edit: And if he loses in the Ro4 or finals, don't assume that his Random is done for. Flash didn't win his OSL as Terran either, but he never stops improving and he came back with a vengeance. He seems really serious about this. This. It was a testament to how far you can go by "just" doing the right thing at the right time, every time. His vulture defense wasn't perfect. His army control wasn't perfect. Not every reaver/HT drop was a winner. But he reaps so many rewards by always playing the right card. So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders. Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'... Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator: The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess). Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now). It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??" | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On October 19 2020 10:31 RKC wrote: So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders. Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'... Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjtGYEn2XPE The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess). Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now). It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??" buT fLaSh jUsT goT LuCKy! -typical embittered envious 1500 mmr player who just wants to put down others to make themselves feel better | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
"that's hacking." "how is he landing those scarab hits so well?!" "his reaver's actually land all their shots, wow." His PvT was Hella fun to watch. His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
even as a zerg fan i feel bad for rush.. guy wears his heart on sleeve, he's been around for a while but could just never get past ro24/ro16. then makes it to ro8 and gets matched up with flash. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
@31:50 Rush floats his barracks on top of Flash's bunker so he can't repair it. @48:47 Flash puts a mining probe to harvest gas, while removing a harvesting probe, presumably to shave off a bit of probe travel time. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On October 19 2020 14:45 Motivate wrote: lol people are acting like flash with terran is like nadal on clay and that it's autolose... thats no where near the case. flash lost with his main race against zero last ASL... the tandom advantage is overplayed For sure, Flash won't automatically win when he rolls T, at least not against the likes of Zero or Soulkey or Best. That being said, I only just realized some very basic math: In any Bo5 that goes all the way to five games, the expectation value for the number of times a Random player rolls Terran is 1.67. The *most probable* number of times a Random player rolls Terran is 2. (That is, 2 is above average, but it's more likely than 1.) When you prepare a Bo5 against Random Flash, you're not prepared unless you're ready to face his Terran *twice*. That's scary. Edit: The corollary is that Flash isn't prepared for, say, Soulkey unless Flash is ready to ZvZ twice. | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote: Watching the Korean pro reactions is hilarious. They're surprised by how well flash's storm drops and reaver scarabs were. "that's hacking." "how is he landing those scarab hits so well?!" "his reaver's actually land all their shots, wow." His PvT was Hella fun to watch. His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane. It looked like Flash placed his reavers differently from how regular Protoss players do. Flash reinventing Protoss? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 19 2020 07:48 WombaT wrote: A terrible player plays blind. A mediocre Starcraft player reacts to what they scout. A decent one reacts to what they’re not scouting as well. A Flash knows exactly what his opponent is doing, how the next 5 minutes of the game are mapped out and when he’s going to kill them. This, so much. I'd paraphrase it this way D players play blind C players react to what they scout and learn to deny scouting B players react to what they're not scouting and learns scout timings (ie first scan, first obs, first lings, overlord arrival) A players can predict the game state several minutes in advance from what they're scouting and visualize what the opponent thinks they see S players (like Flash) learn to control what they reveal to the opponent to manipulate them into bad decisions The last talent (manipulating opponents into seeing the wrong picture or having the wrong set of assumptions) is at the heart of Flash's playstyle. Some of it is metagame related but a lot of it is in-game as well. I've noticed that in TvP, for example, Flash's screen will often hover on the Protoss obs but not kill it because he seems to be comfortable letting the Protoss see what he's doing - but he will often hide a wrinkle somewhere else that alters the state of the game. And in TvZ, his ability to manipulate Z's situational awareness is just masterful (and at the heart of most of his wins vs Jaedong). | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote:His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane. The last time i manage to drop a reaver while dealing with a vultures drop and a vultures run by was in a team melee game when they gave me the pilot shuttle job, in 2004. Cant remember exactly but pretty sure i had not 16 kills on my reaver :-( | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21679 Posts
On October 19 2020 10:31 RKC wrote: Yeah I don't think Flash was 'throwing away' units in game 2, atleast not unintentionally. So true. Armchair analysts will always find some way to pick on proven champions and GOAT contenders. Games not 'cleanest', Flash didn't look 'solid'... Speaking about chess, this reminds me of the Magnus Carlsen's infamous 'meltdown' (or 'takedown', depending how you see it) against some chess commentator: The true mark of a champion is that winning games no matter the disadvantage. They see the game differently from us noobs. What we perceive as ;'mistakes' may just be calculated gambles or trade-offs. Was Flash throwing units away in G2? Sure, looked like it. But someone mentioned how his reaver drop was placed quite well to minimise 'duds'. He engaged even in unfavourable positions perhaps to keep the pressure on Rush to mess up his macro and mess with his mind. Whatever that appears on screen and shows up on the supply tab (Flash maintained a healthy lead throughout anyway) doesn't necessarily show the true status of the game (like in chess). Snow messed up terribly in G3 against free with his dragoon (semi?) all-in. Everyone just goes on and on about his comeback, and glosses over his epic control fail that should by right knocked him out of the tourney (and he's supposed to be the best Protoss player right now). It's fine to criticise top players when they make mistakes, of course. But don't undermine their win (and insult their opponents in the process). Of course, Flash being Flash gets the most flak. To paraphrase Magnus: "WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FLASH TO DO??" A terran needs to build up a critical mass of tanks to be able to move out on the map. Flash's entire strategy looked to be about denying that critical mass. From the drops to hurt the economy, where flash would gladly suicide shuttles, reavers and templars in return for scv kills to suicide his army to remove the Terran army rather then pull back after an initial successful engagement. Does it matter if a Protoss 'throws' away his army if he can rebuild it faster then the Terran can and said Terran can't counter attack because he has no army left? And people saying that a better Terran wouldn't be so down in supply are missing that the tactic isn't working because of the supply difference but is the cause of that supply difference. | ||
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mcmartini
Australia1972 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On October 19 2020 14:45 Motivate wrote: lol people are acting like flash with terran is like nadal on clay and that it's autolose... thats no where near the case. flash lost with his main race against zero last ASL... the "autolose" term is mostly used in the context of TvT vs Flash ... | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4730 Posts
On October 19 2020 19:36 VioleTAK wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh8QDvNUhY hope we get some translations soon, would love to know what they said | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5556 Posts
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote: Watching the Korean pro reactions is hilarious. They're surprised by how well flash's storm drops and reaver scarabs were. "that's hacking." "how is he landing those scarab hits so well?!" "his reaver's actually land all their shots, wow." His PvT was Hella fun to watch. His multi tasking and aggressiveness is insane. Yeah, psycho butcher is really an apt description of his style.  | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On October 19 2020 19:36 VioleTAK wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh8QDvNUhY That video is amazing even without understanding 90% of what they say xD | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
This says it all. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On October 19 2020 22:01 KobraKay wrote: That video is amazing even without understanding 90% of what they say xD Game 3 reactions were gold. But oh so mean.. poor Rush | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
Flash handling vulture drop and harass, even when vult run-in into the natural, better than ANYONE is very hillarious also. And BW enthusiast that can't sit back and look at this series and understand the power of what they are watching and turn off that nonsensical "Snow would do this and that better" retard voice are just lost forever, there is no hope. God. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
Poor baby Rush, it took him forever, 10 ASLs to finally reach ro8 just to get rolled over by God. I hope he won't give up and comeback stronger! ASL11CHAMPRUSH hwaiting! | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On October 18 2020 16:06 darktreb wrote: It's like Shine's "I saved this build for ten years to use against Flash" x10. Would you please provide me with a link to that game(s)? | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VSBLVqz.png) One of each race, 3-0. God Young Ho indeed. Absolutely insane. | ||
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
flash has not just understood how to play terran, but has understood how to play the game as a whole. his PvX and ZvX is very good not because he has spent thousands of hours on them, but because he knows what to do in the context of the game. timing, positioning, enemy's weak points etc. he's not just a Terran player anymore. he is the true Starcraft player. he's not relying on "instincts" coming from years of muscle memory and practice, but through careful analysis of every game at every moment. if that kind of tactical and strategic superiority doesn't impress you then i think you're looking for a different kind of game. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On October 20 2020 09:05 konadora wrote: everyone who's saying flash made bw boring is kinda missing the point i feel? flash has not just understood how to play terran, but has understood how to play the game as a whole. his PvX and ZvX is very good not because he has spent thousands of hours on them, but because he knows what to do in the context of the game. timing, positioning, enemy's weak points etc. he's not just a Terran player anymore. he is the true Starcraft player. he's not relying on "instincts" coming from years of muscle memory and practice, but through careful analysis of every game at every moment. if that kind of tactical and strategic superiority doesn't impress you then i think you're looking for a different kind of game. No one is saying Flash isn't impressive. But impressive analysis isn't necessarily interesting. That said, I do find this more interesting than watching him play Terran, where only his vZ matches are engaging. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 20 2020 03:39 PorkSoda wrote: I feel like Flash’s positioning and timing for his reaver drops were just superior. He was patient and didn’t try to avoid too much damage so that he could fire his scarabs at the side of the SCV train for maximum economic damage. Most Protoss will avoid losing the shuttle reaver at all costs and drop from safe locations, but this comes at the cost of scarabs glitching on minerals or buildings or being stuck behind the SCV train. Yes, he seemed very patient and did not panic. Like the shuttle in red dropping a reaver that killed the bunch of SCVs trailing off the ramp. A typical Protoss would've had just escaped to keep both shuttle and reaver alive. The thing about Flash is his decisiveness. He has made a calculation: "The mission is to kill 20+ SCVs. A shuttle and 2 reavers are worth the exchange'. So he has no qualms sacrificing units. Is it better to kill half the amount of SCVs and keep a nearly dead Shuttle and reaver alive? Maybe, maybe not. But Flash looks far into the long term as well. He has probably calculated that dealing early economic damage is more advantageous strategically than having an extra weakened Shuttle and reaver in his army later on (extra units have diminishing returns longer in the game). | ||
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On October 20 2020 10:56 PorkSoda wrote: I forgot that the vulture drop happened concurrently with the reaver drop. Flash would know that a two base push wouldn’t be coming because of Rush’s investment into drop ship tech, so he knew he could sack the reaver. Yes. Flash had to get aggressive after the vulture harass, otherwise he would be further behind. I suppose the other alternative would be to save the reavers, and quickly mount a frontal push to pressure Rush's expo (or keep threatening to drop harass - but Flash would've lost the element of surprise and Rush would be more prepared to fend off further drops). | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 20 2020 10:19 RKC wrote: Yes, he seemed very patient and did not panic. Like the shuttle in red dropping a reaver that killed the bunch of SCVs trailing off the ramp. A typical Protoss would've had just escaped to keep both shuttle and reaver alive. The thing about Flash is his decisiveness. He has made a calculation: "The mission is to kill 20+ SCVs. A shuttle and 2 reavers are worth the exchange'. So he has no qualms sacrificing units. Is it better to kill half the amount of SCVs and keep a nearly dead Shuttle and reaver alive? Maybe, maybe not. But Flash looks far into the long term as well. He has probably calculated that dealing early economic damage is more advantageous strategically than having an extra weakened Shuttle and reaver in his army later on (extra units have diminishing returns longer in the game). This. I've always felt modern Ps are too cautious with their units between the 6min and 8min mark in PvT, and let T get a heavily upgraded mech deathball too quickly | ||
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Trozz
Canada3454 Posts
Random just makes him stronger. Can't prep versus that! | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On October 19 2020 12:35 Golgotha wrote: "how is he landing those scarab hits so well?!" "his reaver's actually land all their shots, wow." I really didn't get this part of the game, in 90% of cases when we see reaver drops the scarab is targeted to a worker that it can't reach and it just messes about before it duds. Did Flash do something special to get several nice hits like that? Did he know what SCV to target specifically better than many protoss players as he is terran and he knows exactly how SCVs are pulled? Or did he just get lucky with the reavers auto-targeting? Or did Rush make any mistakes in how he pulled his SCVs? I can't remember ever seeing any one drop their reavers and have a 100% connect rate like that against someone that pulls them. Rush was in a nice position but that reaver was insane and after that it felt like it was just a matter of time before Flash won. Crazy to see Flash dominate like this. | ||
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dr.who
Dominican Republic145 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
The second game was interesting insofar as seeing how Flash played the matchup. I remember reading through the LR and seeing people talk about how he was sacrificing units or whatever. Thing is, this is all planned by Flash. Rush was a in great spot when the vulture drops+vulture run-in at the exp took place. However, he neglected his defense at home and paid a heavy price for it. Flash likely figured that it's worth it to lose the shuttle+reaver and kill a ridiculous amount of SCVs which in turn will even or give him an advantage. What did he do with that? He got further ahead and Rush just sacrificed most of his army in that earlier drop so he couldn't do a push. Let's not talk about game three haha. On October 20 2020 16:44 Barneyk wrote: I really didn't get this part of the game, in 90% of cases when we see reaver drops the scarab is targeted to a worker that it can't reach and it just messes about before it duds. Did Flash do something special to get several nice hits like that? Did he know what SCV to target specifically better than many protoss players as he is terran and he knows exactly how SCVs are pulled? Or did he just get lucky with the reavers auto-targeting? Or did Rush make any mistakes in how he pulled his SCVs? I can't remember ever seeing any one drop their reavers and have a 100% connect rate like that against someone that pulls them. Rush was in a nice position but that reaver was insane and after that it felt like it was just a matter of time before Flash won. Crazy to see Flash dominate like this. I think he targeted the SCV closest to the reaver and seeing as they are all bunched up, he got a lot of kills. I think it was a combination of positioning and great targeting that netted him such crazy kills with a single reaver and made sure that the chances of a dud are low, if non-existent. It also makes me wonder if some of our protoss players will utilize such methods in their own drops. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
First he forces Z/P to elevate their vT matchup to an extent that facing a T other than Flash (and maybe some exceptions like Last) is a walk in the park. And now he's literally showing other races how to beat Terran. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On October 21 2020 15:05 konadora wrote: makes me wonder if eventually there will be another random player and we'll have random vs random lol I bet within 3 seasons (if we have them) there'll be 2rnds at the same time in the ASL | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 22 2020 09:50 niteReloaded wrote: I bet within 3 seasons (if we have them) there'll be 2rnds at the same time in the ASL That's pretty easy: Flash plays random again and Bishop makes it into ASL as random through quals. There's your 2 randoms lol. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On October 20 2020 23:22 BigFan wrote: I think he targeted the SCV closest to the reaver and seeing as they are all bunched up, he got a lot of kills. I think it was a combination of positioning and great targeting that netted him such crazy kills with a single reaver and made sure that the chances of a dud are low, if non-existent. It also makes me wonder if some of our protoss players will utilize such methods in their own drops. That is sort of what I was thinking as well, but why don't protoss players do that more? It just sounds a bit to simple. Maybe Rush was a bit slow and mismanaged his pulls and defense a bit? He made it to easy for Flash to just land right in the conga line? | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On October 22 2020 17:09 Barneyk wrote: That is sort of what I was thinking as well, but why don't protoss players do that more? It just sounds a bit to simple. Maybe Rush was a bit slow and mismanaged his pulls and defense a bit? He made it to easy for Flash to just land right in the conga line? What I noticed is other Protosses will fly their shuttle as far away from the tanks as possible before firing at the scvs which increases the chance of a dud since the reaver is further. What Flash did was intentionally fly his shuttle nearer to the scv line and targetting the middle of the line to maximize chances of damage. The risk is that your shuttle/reaver might get picked off but Flash had just one thing in mind which is to maximise damage. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On October 21 2020 00:48 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Flash slowly killing off the Terran race. First he forces Z/P to elevate their vT matchup to an extent that facing a T other than Flash (and maybe some exceptions like Last) is a walk in the park. And now he's literally showing other races how to beat Terran. I know this is just an ironic post, but it does have lots of merit. 1. His TvT is on a level, that any terran facing Flash (in previous ASLs) is eliminated 2. He did (indirectly) force P and Z to elevate their vsT games so that the bar is higher for other Ts 3. And now not that he "reinvents" how to play P or Z, and not to say that current P/Z players are unskilled, but maybe trying some "other" strategies or playing off-meta makes it crazier for T's in terms of preparation Speculation? Certainly, but a fun one if anything  | ||
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Afreeca Starleague Season 10![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
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