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On August 22 2019 07:07 superjoppe wrote:
How can a random non-progamer at all state that Rain played like shit?
In a long 40min game you can actually see how well someone plays, but in a short 10min game? In three short 10min games? It was just build-order wins for Flash. We could barely even see what strategies he had planned. The only real bad play I noticed was the dragoon getting killed in the last game.
It doesn't take a lot to say that rallying your first observer into turrets two games in a row and then dying to marines aren't great plays. When Rain is better than his opponent at a matchup, he absolutely stomps. But as we saw against Flash and against Effort last season, if he's up against a better player he just falls apart.
Anyway, really excited for the finals. If Flash had retired without a rematch against Snow that would have been a travesty.
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On August 22 2019 10:26 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 07:07 superjoppe wrote:
How can a random non-progamer at all state that Rain played like shit?
In a long 40min game you can actually see how well someone plays, but in a short 10min game? In three short 10min games? It was just build-order wins for Flash. We could barely even see what strategies he had planned. The only real bad play I noticed was the dragoon getting killed in the last game. Lmao did you even watch the games? How were they build order wins? Gasless expand is common against Protoss and it's up to Protoss to punish accordingly. Game 2 Flash took a risk with proxy speed vultures and it paid off. Game 3 it was Rain who forced Flash into double barracks after gas steal.
To answer the other poster who asked why people dislike Rain, this is why. Delusional fans that way, way overrate him.
Plus his PvT play is just boring. Good micro and macro, no sense for the matchup.
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Some people keep criticising Rain for his mistakes but tbh, loosing a first observer would not be a big deal if Rain's opponent is someone else other than Flash. There will always be a plethora of reasons for other players to loose to Flash. He has a genius for exploiting his opponent mistakes.
Rain is also a genius in strategy but he is too lazy compared to Flash.
Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL.
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On August 22 2019 06:09 Starecat wrote:
Flash pain was visible, I hope he can be done with StarCraft and go home with a trophy.
Honestly his pain is clear every stream now. Last finals, then it's time to heal. Already well and beyond legend status...
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On August 22 2019 11:57 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 10:08 Terrorbladder wrote:On August 22 2019 00:37 Xxio wrote:On August 21 2019 21:14 ColdLava wrote:On August 21 2019 21:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Rain needs to beat a non-protoss race of he wants to join the protoss champion elite. It's uncanny how similar he is to Bisu in his record. Had Bisu never beaten savior he would also have to take shit for only winning PvPs and losing his only non-PvP to Mind. I have no doubt Rain will have many more semifinal appearances. He may have lost hard here, but he is still consistent as hell. As for Flash, he played brilliantly. I'm happy for the short series so he can hide as much from Snow as possible and for the sake of his wrists. His last finals for now will be great to watch. I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. Date DESC League Map Opponent Result + 12-04-08 SKP11-12 Proleague.. (Twilight) Neo Chain Reaction (T)Flash Win The exception that proves the rule. He clutched game 7 vs Flash in the last ever Proleague Grand Final. If there must be one, the single most important game of his career. 11-16 vs Flash all time. The player Flash called his greatest rival. Holds by far the longest PvT win streak vs Flash at 5 over 8 months in 2009. Starting with a 2-1 comeback vs Flash in GOM Classic Season 2 quarters. 3-0 Skyhigh in semis. Wins the tournament. Far more impressive than the second best PvT streak vs Flash: Stork's 4 between 2 days in 2007. 5-2 vs terrans in 2007 GOM MSL ro16 and quarters. He won that tournament too. 3-0 vs Sea in Terror League grand final. 3-0 Last in VANT Starleague quarters. 3-1 Sharp in semis. 58-31 vs T in Proleague. Better than any other protoss. He is the best protoss player of all time. In PvT specifically, I put him 2nd best all time after Stork. Jangbi close at 3rd.
Nice recap (:
And the story will continue. Bisu is quickly regaining his his touch.
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On August 22 2019 12:01 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 10:26 Dante08 wrote:
Lmao did you even watch the games? How were they build order wins? Gasless expand is common against Protoss and it's up to Protoss to punish accordingly. Game 2 Flash took a risk with proxy speed vultures and it paid off. Game 3 it was Rain who forced Flash into double barracks after gas steal. To answer the other poster who asked why people dislike Rain, this is why. Delusional fans that way, way overrate him.
Not disagreeing, but I see how they might get that way. Rain strikes me as truly genius, but not always out for blood. He has a way of appearing like he doesn't care. It's easy to fall into this trap.. the S7 3rd-4th place match was a good example. I voted for him, and it was almost like he didn't bother to show up. I don't want to take anything away from Effort, btw, but I think a case could be made for expecting a Rain win there... right up until he lost.
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On August 22 2019 09:56 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 04:33 AttackZerg wrote:
Just watched.
Yeah yeah Flash played really good.
And Rain fucking choked.
Worst series I ever saw him play.
Action, now Rain. People be playing like crap deep into tournies.
You can check my post history. I do not take the skills of these cats lightly. And I don't disparage pro gamers personally at all (except fuck Savior)
But this has been horrible and sub-generic play.
Flash and Snow of course get credit for the wins rather then their opponents but ... holy crap this was some weak play. Name 1 other time Rain actually CHOKED "deep in a tourney" I'm not gonna deny he played like shit game 2 and 3, but theres no possible way you can say Rain "chokes deep" in tournaments
That is what I am saying!
Rain never plays this bad, he is fucking amazing.
So much so, I did not feel at all certain Flash of all people would win.
He is a great champion. This time he choked.
Like, I said - worst match he ever llayed.
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On August 22 2019 12:38 Vinh1 wrote:
Some people keep criticising Rain for his mistakes but tbh, loosing a first observer would not be a big deal if Rain's opponent is someone else other than Flash. There will always be a plethora of reasons for other players to loose to Flash. He has a genius for exploiting his opponent mistakes.
Rain is also a genius in strategy but he is too lazy compared to Flash.
Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL.
Absolutely ridiculous statement, did you see Snow vs Last in ASL? or vs Last in End of the world? He can toy with a terran that beat Rain in ASL last season. His PvT is definitely better than Rain's and a statement that he is only hype is borderline trolling. Even online his records are better than Rain, the advantage Rain has is in PvP. Snow is catching up in PvZ and is already better by a good margin in PvT.
Also Snow works harder than Rain in playing actual games, thats why he has seen such improvement in what was once one of the worst PvZ's in all of BW.
Watch as Snow plays a competitive set vs Flash, whereas Rain was out of his depth.
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On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 04:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote:On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 Jackal03 wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 TaardadAiel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:10 KamMoye wrote:
What a joke. Complete embarrassment. There are levels to this. Will it even be worth watching Finals? Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? From the Snow vs Flash thread: Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p):
Gladiator : 50.3%
Transistor : 37.6%
Sparkle : 55.1%
Third World : 46.2%
Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up.
Were these online stats or ASL? If it's ASL I wouldn't pay much attention to it as the sample size is way too small.
Also fair play to Snow that series but people forget that whether imbalanced or not, that map pool only had 1 standard 4 player macro map. This favors Protoss more, especially Snow since he likes to go for a harassment style and effectively takes Flash's biggest strength away which is macro.
Yes Snow won on the standard macro map but to act like the maps didn't favor him is just wrong.
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On August 22 2019 11:57 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 10:08 Terrorbladder wrote:On August 22 2019 00:37 Xxio wrote:On August 21 2019 21:14 ColdLava wrote:On August 21 2019 21:05 BisuDagger wrote:
Rain needs to beat a non-protoss race of he wants to join the protoss champion elite. It's uncanny how similar he is to Bisu in his record. Had Bisu never beaten savior he would also have to take shit for only winning PvPs and losing his only non-PvP to Mind. I have no doubt Rain will have many more semifinal appearances. He may have lost hard here, but he is still consistent as hell. As for Flash, he played brilliantly. I'm happy for the short series so he can hide as much from Snow as possible and for the sake of his wrists. His last finals for now will be great to watch. I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. Date DESC League Map Opponent Result + 12-04-08 SKP11-12 Proleague.. (Twilight) Neo Chain Reaction (T)Flash Win The exception that proves the rule. He clutched game 7 vs Flash in the last ever Proleague Grand Final. If there must be one, the single most important game of his career. 11-16 vs Flash all time. The player Flash called his greatest rival. Holds by far the longest PvT win streak vs Flash at 5 over 8 months in 2009. Starting with a 2-1 comeback vs Flash in GOM Classic Season 2 quarters. 3-0 Skyhigh in semis. Wins the tournament. Far more impressive than the second best PvT streak vs Flash: Stork's 4 between 2 days in 2007. 5-2 vs terrans in 2007 GOM MSL ro16 and quarters. He won that tournament too. 3-0 vs Sea in Terror League grand final. 3-0 Last in VANT Starleague quarters. 3-1 Sharp in semis. 58-31 vs T in Proleague. Better than any other protoss. He is the best protoss player of all time. In PvT specifically, I put him 2nd best all time after Stork. Jangbi close at 3rd.
Hey thanks for the recap. I don't think I back down from what I say, as my frame of reference there is from 2006-2012. I don't disagree with what you say about the rankings, although it's hard to say if Jangbi should be #2 PvT or Bisu, but you might also want to consider Nal_ra there as he won some really important matchups PvT including over Nada for his OSL win. In terms of overall Protoss however, Bisu is the best by a country mile, achieved the most, and did more to advance the way people played protoss than any other person really.
A couple counter points (keep in mind is that my point is the one knock about Bisu is he had a hard time, in the most important moments, with PvT, against the top tier terrans):
-One of the wins you include in that 5 map win streak includes an all star game against Flash that noone takes seriously. It's a fun event for fans.
-I didn't forget about the GOM classic, which was actually a bit of a surprising win at the time for Bisu where Bisu looked amazing. But people, including the players, didn't take that quite as seriously as they took the OSL/MSL.
-Skyhigh wasn't seen as the absolute top tier at any point in his career and his TvP was particularly kinda awful for a player of his level.
-The period from around the end of 2008 until the middle of 2009 was Flash's weakest time during 2008-2011, which is when Bisu did well against Flash. That's still really good, it wasn't like Flash was a bum lol, he was still incredibly good and generally a top 3 player during that time.
-Other than that period in 2009, and particularly that GomTV series, Flash really had Bisu's number.
One thing that was funny about Bisu was that at the very start of his career (pre-Savior MSL final), he was seen as a really strong macro protoss who's PvT and PvP were particularly strong. That was before he flipped the entire PvZ matchup on its head.
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I hope Flash tears him apart. Ho wait he did. Perfect.
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On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 04:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote:On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 Jackal03 wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 TaardadAiel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:10 KamMoye wrote:
What a joke. Complete embarrassment. There are levels to this. Will it even be worth watching Finals? Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? From the Snow vs Flash thread: Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p):
Gladiator : 50.3%
Transistor : 37.6%
Sparkle : 55.1%
Third World : 46.2%
Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up.
Yea I think people get confused about Sparkle. TvP on Sparkle was fine, it was TvZ that felt unwinnable and left people questioning whether Sparkle was actually play tested.
Zerg air superiority with mutas was real, and the moment a single Hydra drops in the Terran base = gg.
Those stats surprise me though. Third World sure felt like some bullshit at the time.
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On August 22 2019 15:34 avanhokie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 12:38 Vinh1 wrote:
Some people keep criticising Rain for his mistakes but tbh, loosing a first observer would not be a big deal if Rain's opponent is someone else other than Flash. There will always be a plethora of reasons for other players to loose to Flash. He has a genius for exploiting his opponent mistakes.
Rain is also a genius in strategy but he is too lazy compared to Flash.
Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL. Absolutely ridiculous statement, did you see Snow vs Last in ASL? or vs Last in End of the world? He can toy with a terran that beat Rain in ASL last season. His PvT is definitely better than Rain's and a statement that he is only hype is borderline trolling. Even online his records are better than Rain, the advantage Rain has is in PvP. Snow is catching up in PvZ and is already better by a good margin in PvT. Also Snow works harder than Rain in playing actual games, thats why he has seen such improvement in what was once one of the worst PvZ's in all of BW. Watch as Snow plays a competitive set vs Flash, whereas Rain was out of his depth.
Rain beat Last 3:1 in KSL vs ASL series last year in return. So?
Online records are not applicable to Rain, because as I said, he is noticeably lazy and does not practice much. He is also known for spending time to test his strategies with computers. Flash also does that. Some people here can confirm.
I see Snow is like Larva. They become hyped with some cool strategies but cannot keep up their games consistently.
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Ummm Larva has never been a contender and fails everytime he has a shot. Sometimes tragically.
Snow has been a league contender for a decade.
They are not comparable, except the weird fact that if they played online larva (who is amazing) might beat him 9-1.
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On August 22 2019 16:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Ummm Larva has never been a contender and fails everytime he has a shot. Sometimes tragically.
Snow has been a league contender for a decade.
They are not comparable, except the weird fact that if they played online larva (who is amazing) might beat him 9-1.
I was saying Snow is a case similar to Larva in a sense that Larva suddenly became a hype after he beat Jaedong.
TL even has an article about him: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/532441-larva-no-more-the-evolution
Still remember many people expected Larva would become a new Jaedong.
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People keep mentioning losing his first observer in the first two games, but I thought there were more suspicious decisions on Rain's part...
Game 1: The recall fake was nice, but he recalled 20+ zealots into 1 tanks and 10 vultures...I can't possibly imagine why he would choose to recall that force there. If he had recalled over the main tank line, he could've potentially busted Flash....
Game 2: Losing those probes and getting his two stargates scouted was very unfortunate for Rain. But why on earth would he opt for that strategy in the first place? If they were cross positions, maybe he could've gotten away with skipping reavers. But with those spawn points versus Flash? I just can't quite understand why he would skip reavers there...
Game 3: Can't tell if losing his dragoon was a ramp bug or if he mismicroed or both. But right as he was about to clean the initial force up, and right as the bunker was about to finish -- he sends all his probes back to mine?! The game was probably over the moment Rain lost one of his first dragoons, but the game is 100% over if Flash is able to set up a bunker in front of your gateway...
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Definitely think Rain is a front runner/flat track bully. He looks great when playing weaker opponents but when the heat is on he implodes pretty easily.
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On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 Jackal03 wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 TaardadAiel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:10 KamMoye wrote:
What a joke. Complete embarrassment. There are levels to this. Will it even be worth watching Finals? Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator).
third world is not balanced at all. the abusive shit you can pull on that map is unfunny
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On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 04:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote:On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 Jackal03 wrote:On August 21 2019 20:13 TaardadAiel wrote:On August 21 2019 20:10 KamMoye wrote:
What a joke. Complete embarrassment. There are levels to this. Will it even be worth watching Finals? Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? From the Snow vs Flash thread: Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p):
Gladiator : 50.3%
Transistor : 37.6%
Sparkle : 55.1%
Third World : 46.2%
Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up.
I don't know where the data comes from, but since Third World was only played for one ASL season, I don't think the statistical data here is meaningful. My impression of Third World was that the map forced every T to decide the game quickly, because he had no way to handle Protoss on the island side of the map. Protoss could warp 4 gates without a big investment and make the whole side almost untouchable for Terra, while Terra could at best secure the Expo at the starting position with tanks (also not really). A map that forces a race to win quickly must be ridiculously imbalanced.
And so it fits into the picture that Snow won 2x Third World.
I also don't know why it is constantly stressed that Flash won on transistor. Does that speak for Snow that he lost against Flash on a (also statistically) p favored map?
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people tend to trust in statistics from sponbang unable to read what the gameplay on a certain map gives them ie on transistor flash was forced to go ALL-IN to end the game quickly not having to deal with the map imbalances in mid-late game flash lost a ridiculous amount of his practices games to best/shuttle like down 80% was insane.
if i 2fact on a protoss favored map the map really doesn't matter so much anymore. you can choice certain playstyles that are less safe to overcome some of the map imbalances in scbw this is what happend on transistor when flash went for an all-in early push to end the game.
even pros and casters saying third world needed to go..
i dont really hate third world or something i like to see flash try and do the impossible but still... dont want to see it again 2 TIMES in a bo5 hell no.
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EPT
