EPT
[ASL8] Semifinal B - Flash vs Rain
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
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onlystar
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Wrath
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FakeFin
Germany392 Posts
On August 20 2019 21:04 Wrath wrote: How can I watch this? Afreeca keeps lagging for me. They also stream it on their youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Rain's PvT isn't always deadly, Flash is expected to beat him. | ||
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bd.Makin
Chile104 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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LightSpectra
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asel
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
The (semi)finals we've been waiting for. If it goes to 5 games ill be happy no matter the winner. And if Flash wins we get another finals... Happy days! | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5594 Posts
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Nukid
United States240 Posts
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KamMoye
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
Shut DOWN those haters | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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TornadoSteve
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zedus
United States2 Posts
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Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Rain (imo) is the best match protoss player in the history of the game. He is better at winning boX then he is in any one game. I don't know if it is instinct or militant preparation, although I lean heavily towards the later - or just both. Flash on the other hand is the best starcraft player in the world and in history. He can be beaten. It has been done, many times. But except Effort, it is almost always a statistical mistake to pick against him. Also, and I know TvZ is a different matchup and I'm sorry for the spoiler (it's been months it on you) but his comeback against Soulkey in that long ass match "Ultimate Battle" or whatever reaffirmed my faith in the underlying uniqueness of his talent. I have never seen a comeback of that magnitude against someone playing as good as Soulkey. Now that I wrote that.... Yeah, I convinced myself. Rain showed both brilliance and nerve induced mistakes in his match against Last. Flash with a shredded wrist and rotting shoulder is going win this match and the next. In his most beatable matchup, he will dine finely on templar meat. You have been drafted into the Terran Confederacy. Would you like to know more? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
tought nut to crack! FlaSh 3-1 imo | ||
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Lord-SnoT
France6 Posts
I think (and hope yeah because i'm an old school player) Flash wins, but if Rain wins it, it would not be a shame for Flash. Seriously, this guy is really smart when he plays... Anyway, Flash on his side is good at every part of the game. He can handle cheesy builds with his multitask and perfect micro, he can also handle very long macro game, and what about mid game? Oh well, I'm just saying this guy is a fucking monster, just the best... And to finish, a remake of Flash vs Snow in final would be great too... So sorry Rain but I definitively have to support Flash, GOGO FLASH !!! | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
I guess a TvP finals would be better for BW though. | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
i cant see anyone winning vs Flash right now in bo5+, except Snow.. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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FlopTurnReaver
Switzerland1980 Posts
Don't ruin my Liquibet Flash!! | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
All the pros in the ASL: picked Flash to win. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
please let rain win a couple of maps | ||
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chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
I'd rather have a Flash vs Snow finals than a PvP where Rain stomps Snow easy. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
and if flash wins, we get another one! | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Pull an effort and be the champion on your final tournament | ||
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nojok
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Terrorbladder
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Jackal03
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razorsuKe
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Terrorbladder
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nojok
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razorsuKe
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Jackal03
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Jackal03
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Wonk
546 Posts
u realize all of those arbs was hallucs | ||
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Jackal03
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Jackal03
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Terrorbladder
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Terrorbladder
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Dante08
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nojok
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razorsuKe
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KamMoye
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
lol tastosis such a fanboys of rain | ||
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:40 Terrorbladder wrote: Man Artosis's commentary is so all over the place. Did he even look at Rain's supply after the fight? They are just trying to keep the game interesting, Flash stomping him isn't as intriguing | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
fake hallucination + recall did nothing | ||
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outscar
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KamMoye
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Terrorbladder
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Jackal03
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Shindobaddo
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Turbovolver
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LV_426
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geod
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Jackal03
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CakeSauc3
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:41 razorsuKe wrote: Literally any other player would have died to Rain's moves, he played beautifully but Flash was way too well setup with that super fast 4th lolno, there wouldn't have even been a location to attack after the fake arbiter move if there wasn't a fast 4th | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Jackal03
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nojok
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LV_426
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Rain Game 1? Yes (14) If you have time (3) No (3) 20 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes | ||
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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CakeSauc3
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Jackal03
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Terrorbladder
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KamMoye
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:54 Jackal03 wrote: lol, rain can't save his first observer That's not so bad, flash' opening was ragequit worthy, losing an obs to the tilt is ok. | ||
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Jackal03
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Highgamer
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
flash is such a monster such a great series | ||
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Terrorbladder
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Motivate
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Rain Game 2? Yes (11) If you have time (2) No (5) 18 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes | ||
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alypse
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GTR
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nojok
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TaardadAiel
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Jackal03
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
the most underwhelming series of past couple years, tbh.. at least for me. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
When Flash is in his godmode, no one can stop him, it's so great to see him doing that on his final tournament | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2257 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
prepare for last game for today... | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2257 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:01 LV_426 wrote: ye pretty one sided games so far, but mostly due to bad plays from Rain not scouting a proxi factory is a bad play¿ wtf | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:00 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Terrible series so far. Absolutely awful. the most underwhelming series of past couple years, tbh.. at least for me. Underwhelming? It's going exactly as expected. Why do so many people think Rain can PvT? lol | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:01 LV_426 wrote: ye pretty one sided games so far, but mostly due to bad plays from Rain Agreed. He's making a ton of pretty weird looking mistakes.. Damn shame. | ||
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crnm95
37 Posts
What a legend | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:59 CakeSauc3 wrote: Someone pls make a good unimpressed Flash meme out of this. I've seen plenty of pictures of Flash in this series that would fit, but I can't think of a fitting joke. I'm not retiring, I've finished the multiplayer campaign. | ||
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:02 XenOsky wrote: not scouting a proxi factory is a bad play¿ wtf no, but letting vultures into main is... also losing obs in both games + few other minor.. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:03 Turbovolver wrote: Underwhelming? It's going exactly as expected. Why do so many people think Rain can PvT? lol yes, underwhelming. I knew FlaSh is going to win, but I thought the games are going to be actually quite exciting and closer than this roflstompfest.. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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Jackal03
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:05 Jackal03 wrote: PvT is rain worse MU, it's not that unexpected that flash wins this series his pvz is worst, at least from his stats from afreeca... | ||
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Jackal03
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Jackal03
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:06 LV_426 wrote: his pvz is worst, at least from his stats from afreeca... yes, pvz is his worse, i got it mixed up. his pvp that is god tier | ||
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Jackal03
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Dante08
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Dante08
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:58 nojok wrote: Desperate proxy gate time! If even I felt it coming, Flash had it figured out by the end of game 1. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2257 Posts
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IRseriousCat-
74 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Rain Game 3? Yes (9) If you have time (6) No (9) 24 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
P.S.: He already was talking about going into finals pre interview, this just shows how confident FlaSh was. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
snow v flash will be epic! Snow PvT is top tier and flash is god tier | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
such a disappointment, terrible play from Rain today ... | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
overall rain came out and impressed with the hallucination play and army movements in the early phase of game 1 but, flash just playing his usual super solid game too bad in game 3, seemed like rain was getting a lead if he held off the marine and scv push | ||
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carebear91
Singapore236 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
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GTR
51429 Posts
Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:03 nojok wrote: I'm not retiring, I've finished the multiplayer campaign. LOL good one | ||
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Javah
France739 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. wtf is afreeca supposed to do about it? | ||
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 -NegativeZero- wrote: wtf is afreeca supposed to do about it? force Flash to start with 3scvs | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:10 KamMoye wrote: What a joke. Complete embarrassment. There are levels to this. Will it even be worth watching Finals? Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. | ||
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Shindobaddo
6 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less than 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. True, rain gave the impression that he came unprepared. His display was patetic at best | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 -NegativeZero- wrote: wtf is afreeca supposed to do about it? Drag Flash to the military :D | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9015 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:13 TaardadAiel wrote: Yes, this is where the Protoss actually can PvT like a god. Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less than 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. They can tweak maps like on S5 but we will end up seeing all tosses ro8 which will be even more boring. We just need tough guys back from military. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
Terrible series. Rain played like he was drunk or something. Yuck! | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series Nope, this was glorious. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Rain exposed after everyone thought he was hot shit for taking out my boy Last. | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:13 Jackal03 wrote: Snow is the god killer, if anyone can beat flash in PvT is him To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 imBLIND wrote: Flash's original calling card was his cheese..that game was like a throwback to 2007 14yo flash It was actually a pretty brief period because IIRC he was facing really good players (I think he cheesed Bisu out of an OSL 2-0). But I remember this forum getting so pissed off about that, there was a period where he was mostly disliked by people lol | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
run a league type system with championship belts where flash is defending it often... damn too bad he's taking a break | ||
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less than 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. Dude is the GOAT. Anyone who wasn't expecting this simply wasn't paying attention. It's his last tournament. Afreeca doesn't have to do anything. Be happy they get to see the best player ever. I highly doubt the Finals will be remotely competitive. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote: To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. normal players can't even beat flash on anti-flash maps. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Shindobaddo
6 Posts
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geod
Vietnam450 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less than 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. Damn honestly i was inspired by Flash perfomance but reading your post i guess is all afreeca fault LMAO. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:15 Turbovolver wrote: Nope, this was glorious. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Rain exposed after everyone thought he was hot shit for taking out my boy Last. Nonsense, how can this be glorious and wtf does Last have to do here. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:21 Malongo wrote: Nonsense, how can this be glorious and wtf does Last have to do here. Rain exposed - not nonsense People thought/think he's hot shit - not nonsense Rain took out Last - not nonsense | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
Also, this series kinda reminded me of Flash vs Stork Bacchus OSL which lasted all of like 40 minutes as well hehe | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:20 Shindobaddo wrote: is flash going to the military? Tastosis said its flash last game for a long time. He's going to military soon-ish, but he's stated that he won't be playing any future tournaments due to a pretty bad shoulder injury. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I am convinced we will see an epic final, or at least a worthy one. | ||
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Mrwl
Sweden339 Posts
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Zaibakk
101 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:34 Mrwl wrote: He won't play individual tournaments again, but he will play team eventsCan someone enlighten me; with Flash going to the military combined with his injury - will he retire for good or just take a break and heal? I don't want him to be gone | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:37 Zaibakk wrote: You cant beat Flash at his rules. You have to to throw something that offbalance him, taking him out of his comfort zone. Hope that Snow has what it takes for this with early drop play attacks and prepared maps builds. yes i was surprised rain barely prepared anything special for this series which is unusual considering how he came up with some funky proxies in previous competitive series. you think you will nog your brain juices a bit more knowing that you are have <30% winrate in spongames against your opponent lul. | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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ASCandLoLFan
25 Posts
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byj
494 Posts
Go to watch the VOD It's only 90minutes long The first game starts 30minutes in Whelps | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19225 Posts
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:05 BisuDagger wrote: Rain needs to beat a non-protoss race of he wants to join the protoss champion elite. It's uncanny how similar he is to Bisu in his record. Had Bisu never beaten savior he would also have to take shit for only winning PvPs and losing his only non-PvP to Mind. I have no doubt Rain will have many more semifinal appearances. He may have lost hard here, but he is still consistent as hell. As for Flash, he played brilliantly. I'm happy for the short series so he can hide as much from Snow as possible and for the sake of his wrists. His last finals for now will be great to watch. I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:12 GTR wrote: This match was over in less than 90 minutes which is an insult to the fans who came to the studio. Afreeca needs to somehow make these matches more competitive or people will stop watching. Admit it: everyone reading this thread was disappointed by the one-sided matches and would have preferred a five game series. How the hell did Rain prepare? Did he even watch Flash's games? Flash didn't do anything unusual or extraordinary, Rain just reacted poorly to everything. Well let's see, he blocked the obs and made 3 expansions with 2 factories and no armory in game 1, something that is insane for any terran to do and also not his usual style, he's known for fast upgrades off 2 bases Game 2 he hid a factory in the middle of the map after expanding, never saw that before that late in the game Game 3 rain rolled over and died due to bad micro Nothing unusual? | ||
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:14 ColdLava wrote: I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. Rain is not that good at PvT ? thats something new, did you check his pvt win ratio from Afreeca ? Losing 0:3 against Flash =/= you are not at certain mu.. | ||
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Lord-SnoT
France6 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:46 LV_426 wrote: Rain is not that good at PvT ? thats something new, did you check his pvt win ratio from Afreeca ? Losing 0:3 against Flash =/= you are not at certain mu.. Or here https://tl.net/tlpd/sospa/players/697_Rain | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Sorusaba
275 Posts
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Highgamer
1403 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:41 LG)Sabbath wrote: Well let's see, he blocked the obs and made 3 expansions with 2 factories and no armory in game 1, something that is insane for any terran to do and also not his usual style, he's known for fast upgrades off 2 bases spoiler alert Game 1 really set the pace for the series: Flash got a scout on first try, and then he saw Rain's first obs die (see Flash's vision in the Vod, 6.15 game-time), he didn't really block it from seeing the additional bases. I would say that going 4 base only looks unusual but actually isn't - because it's Flash's usual thing to seize opportunities if he sees them. It might have been a planned option but I'm sure he made a decision there. He knew Rain would be in the dark, also see his vultures checking if anything comes to scout his fast expos. A Terran can really learn a lot from watching the minutes after 6.15, how he creates a huge strategic advantage out of thin air, just by spotting a mistake of his opponent, using the resulting time and the map-distance perfectly to plant expos safely when Protoss doesn't know, then the units that he has to zone out the counter-pressure. The game wasn't even easy to win despite all that. Rain did a multi-pronged play with hallucinations (game-time 12.20 ff.), Flash was deceived and sent stuff in the main when Rain was actually recalling Flash's feeble static defense at his 4th, and probably only Flash could do the swing-around with his army so quickly and hardly lose anything but a few SCVs in that whole engagement. edit: I even think Rain has a momentum and chance here if he sends his whole army to attack Flash's stretched-out army, and uses reinforcements to go for the 4th and 3rd. By splitting up his forces Flash could throw him back with half his army engaging. Maybe Rain even had s.th. planned but Flash's scouting-luck denied it. Rain's to blame for losing the obs tho. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19225 Posts
On August 21 2019 22:10 Highgamer wrote: spoiler alert Game 1 really set the pace for the series: Flash got a scout on first try, and then he saw Rain's first obs die (see Flash's vision in the Vod, 6.15 game-time), he didn't really block it from seeing the additional bases. I would say that going 4 base only looks unusual but actually isn't - because it's Flash's usual thing to seize opportunities if he sees them. It might have been a planned option but I'm sure he made a decision there. He knew Rain would be in the dark, also see his vultures checking if anything comes to scout his fast expos. A Terran can really learn a lot from watching the minutes after 6.15, how he creates a huge strategic advantage out of thin air, just by spotting a mistake of his opponent, using the resulting time and the map-distance perfectly to plant expos safely when Protoss doesn't know, then the units that he has to zone out the counter-pressure. The game wasn't even easy to win despite all that. Rain did a multi-pronged play with hallucinations (game-time 12.20 ff.), Flash was deceived and sent stuff in the main when Rain was actually recalling Flash's feeble static defense at his 4th, and probably only Flash could do the swing-around with his army so quickly and hardly lose anything but a few SCVs in that whole engagement. edit: I even think Rain has a momentum and chance here if he sends his whole army to attack Flash's stretched-out army, and uses reinforcements to go for the 4th and 3rd. By splitting up his forces Flash could throw him back with half his army engaging. Maybe Rain even had s.th. planned but Flash's scouting-luck denied it. Rain's to blame for losing the obs tho. It was also a really big deal that Rain did not actually kill off the fourth command center. In the trick attack he lost most of his army and didn't take a base or destroy enough tanks to make it worth it. The extra gas at the fourth base is enormous and hurt him tremendously in the long run. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:46 LV_426 wrote: Rain is not that good at PvT ? thats something new, did you check his pvt win ratio from Afreeca ? Losing 0:3 against Flash =/= you are not at certain mu.. In August, he's 0-2 with Flash, 3-4 with Light, 2-2 with Sharp and 4-3 with Rush. His bigger win percentages are against the likes of Ample (4-0), Mong (2-0), Shinee (2-0) and Sorry (5-3).This is most definitely not top PvT rates. And in July it's worse, his total winrate vs Terran is 48.8%, which includes 0-5 against Light, 1-4 against Last and 2-7 against Flash. So yeah, he's not a top PvT-er unlike Snow. He's still an amazingly smart player with great mechanics. PvT is just not his matchup. Regarding game 1, the nice hallucination trick earned him nothing - he lost his army and didn't even force a lift at the 4th. Wasn't a particularly good trade. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:41 LG)Sabbath wrote: Well let's see, he blocked the obs and made 3 expansions with 2 factories and no armory in game 1, something that is insane for any terran to do and also not his usual style, he's known for fast upgrades off 2 bases Game 2 he hid a factory in the middle of the map after expanding, never saw that before that late in the game Game 3 rain rolled over and died due to bad micro Nothing unusual? actually the game on sylphid is more standard than you think the 1siege into speed/mines 4 vultures into triple cc is a standard meta opening from like +/-3 years ago, he played the map alot like last did opting for fast 4base he just saw he could get away with taking a 4th base fast you can open up 4base on sylphid easy a bit like CB just less comfortable but still something alot of terrans would opt on going fast 4base on sylphid. its kinda like we saw how flash plays CB dominating every TvP +/- 3years ago | ||
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24977 Posts
I don’t understand how Flash is still this good, between needing a bionic arm, plus the bank he’s earned from his career and a big stream, it says a lot about his sheer competitiveness and love for the game that he keeps up such a high level. I’m no BW vet so I assume it’s still a fair bit below his absolute peak, but his rivals from those times don’t seem to be anywhere near theirs. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
The hallucinations were a cool move but the attack did not do much except buy some time. Rain needed to expand to the other main to keep the pressure. From there it was a straightforward game for Flash, vulture harass while building up his tank count and roll Protoss over. Game 2: Again Flash doing a calculated build and got away with gases expand. The proxy fac was a cool move, even if you don't get much damage done it's not a big deal. Once the vultures got in and scouted the carriers it was game over and Flash just executed a nice timing push. Really weird from Rain not to go reaver into carrier which is a much more natural transition. Game 3: Nothing much to say here, just bad micro from Rain, he must have been tilted by the earlier games. | ||
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Ideas
United States8084 Posts
That was a brutal series but I expected flash to dominate. Whenever watching him in a macro game it's crazy how well optimized he is. Generally protoss is up at least 10-20 supply at all times in a TvP but with flash he's almost always even on supply. He just knows everything to do in any situation. In game 3 he made gas steal proxy gate look like the dumbest move ever haha. Rain is still fantastic but got so outclassed in this match. I think snow will do better though, he's a much more flexible PvTer and knows he needs to go and seek out edges against flash instead of letting flash dictate the pace of the game. I still think flash will win 4-1 or 4-2 though, but I'd love to see Snow take it to game 7. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On August 21 2019 22:35 onlystar wrote: actually the game on sylphid is more standard than you think the 1siege into speed/mines 4 vultures into triple cc is a standard meta opening from like +/-3 years ago, he played the map alot like last did opting for fast 4base he just saw he could get away with taking a 4th base fast you can open up 4base on sylphid easy a bit like CB just less comfortable but still something alot of terrans would opt on going fast 4base on sylphid. its kinda like we saw how flash plays CB dominating every TvP +/- 3years ago Oh I wasn't aware that this was a thing for a while, even then sylphid doesn't look as suited to it as CB where you can defend all bases from 1-2 places, in sylphid you have to spread your tank line and a more macro P build might roll you over, maybe Flash had this situation planned out and didn't really rely on killing the obs | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, hallucination was cool but didn't accomplish anything. Flash had most of his tanks exposed in front of his nat when the fake arbs went into the main, but Rain didn't spot it (no obs there), so he just recalled the zealots on top of the vultures. If he kills the tanks there, he can probably force Flash back to his nat for a while. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:14 ColdLava wrote: I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. Look at his name/location--that guy pigeonholes everything into Bisu narrative when he gets the chance. | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/uS50DIp.png) | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:14 ColdLava wrote: I mean, Bisu gets shit for, while having a very good PvT, not pulling it together against the top tier terrans especially in important moments (finals vs Mind, semifinals vs Flash and Fantasy). But even without a stomping of Savior, people would have to be out of their mind to criticize Bisu for anything to do with PvZ. Their narratives are quite different, Bisu only struggled PvT against the very best, and Rain is just not good at PvT or PvZ. Date DESC League Map Opponent Result + 12-04-08 SKP11-12 Proleague.. (Twilight) Neo Chain Reaction (T)Flash Win | ||
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
Glad to know we'll have an interesting finals  | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
Still, this has to be an extremely useful loss for Rain. The mistakes he did he can now try to remedy and become a stronger player. It was an exciting set of games, all in all. One that begs for "Unimpressed Flash" memes but still - it is entertaining to see how Flash dismantles the opposition. | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
Snow should be able to show bit more exciting PvTs. Gotta root for Flash tho since it's his last tournament. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
LEE YOUNG-HO FIGHTING!! | ||
keit
1584 Posts
Snow has such beautiful PvT and Flash looked immortal today vs Rain. Incredible end to Flash's career. | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:46 LV_426 wrote: Rain is not that good at PvT ? thats something new, did you check his pvt win ratio from Afreeca ? Losing 0:3 against Flash =/= you are not at certain mu.. I shouldn't have said "not good" however I meant in the context of the very very best. | ||
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user80269
20 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:16 mishimaBeef wrote: re: what is afreeca supposed to do about it? run a league type system with championship belts where flash is defending it often... damn too bad he's taking a break This seems like an idea. Suppose a belt for each matchup, plus a champion's belt, and having a UFC style card twice a week could be sweet. Knockout touraments play fierce for week or weekend timetables, but do seem somewhat lacking over 2-3 month durations. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 22 2019 02:17 keit wrote: Thank you flash for giving us this incredible final. Snow has such beautiful PvT and Flash looked immortal today vs Rain. Incredible end to Flash's career. It's not an end to his career, he's still going to play teamleagues, just no big solo tournaments anymore. | ||
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Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:15 asel wrote: To be fair he Snow beat FlaSh on anti-FlaSh maps. No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote: No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). People have been ignoring this fact for the whole time, no reason for that to change now. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Yeah yeah Flash played really good. And Rain fucking choked. Worst series I ever saw him play. Action, now Rain. People be playing like crap deep into tournies. You can check my post history. I do not take the skills of these cats lightly. And I don't disparage pro gamers personally at all (except fuck Savior) But this has been horrible and sub-generic play. Flash and Snow of course get credit for the wins rather then their opponents but ... holy crap this was some weak play. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote: No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? | ||
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user80269
20 Posts
i'd hope that with rehab and time he could return in a couple years. he could probably even switch his hands up and learn it all over again. it is quite a journey but he is quite the exceptional man. | ||
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Ideas
United States8084 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? Yeah honestly Third World seems like a harder TvP map than Sparkle (at least in some ways). None of the maps in this tournament seem as hard as Sparkle or Third World though. Although we still haven't seen a TvP on Tripod, which seems like a tough map. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Starecat
936 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
In a long 40min game you can actually see how well someone plays, but in a short 10min game? In three short 10min games? It was just build-order wins for Flash. We could barely even see what strategies he had planned. The only real bad play I noticed was the dragoon getting killed in the last game. | ||
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avanhokie
50 Posts
People are just going to continually slight Snow forever because of this, if Flash was so superior to Snow at the time he could have beaten him on THE MOST STANDARD MAP IN THE POOL Gladiator. Snow deservedly won. I think he has a fair shot in the finals too. Still favoring Flash 4-2 | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Gladiator was a great win for Snow.. but Third World? From the Snow vs Flash thread: On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p): Gladiator : 50.3% Transistor : 37.6% Sparkle : 55.1% Third World : 46.2% Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:33 AttackZerg wrote: Just watched. Yeah yeah Flash played really good. And Rain fucking choked. Worst series I ever saw him play. Action, now Rain. People be playing like crap deep into tournies. You can check my post history. I do not take the skills of these cats lightly. And I don't disparage pro gamers personally at all (except fuck Savior) But this has been horrible and sub-generic play. Flash and Snow of course get credit for the wins rather then their opponents but ... holy crap this was some weak play. Name 1 other time Rain actually CHOKED "deep in a tourney" I'm not gonna deny he played like shit game 2 and 3, but theres no possible way you can say Rain "chokes deep" in tournaments | ||
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
On August 22 2019 00:37 Xxio wrote: The exception that proves the rule.Date DESC League Map Opponent Result + 12-04-08 SKP11-12 Proleague.. (Twilight) Neo Chain Reaction (T)Flash Win | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote: From the Snow vs Flash thread: Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up. Yes I remember Flash was supremely confident in Sparkle, and it showed in how decisively he won. Transistor was obviously his most hated as he vetoed it. I stand by what I said when I questioned the claim that Third World is balanced. On August 22 2019 07:09 avanhokie wrote: People are just going to continually slight Snow forever because of this, if Flash was so superior to Snow at the time he could have beaten him on THE MOST STANDARD MAP IN THE POOL Gladiator. Snow deservedly won. I think he has a fair shot in the finals too. Still favoring Flash 4-2 Not to condone it, but it's pretty common for fans and spectators to find fault in a win. The only thing you can do as a player is come back, win it again, and shut them up. But then usually doing it twice might not be enough.. Three or four should shut people up. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: Rain is a moron. He choked hard.He was cocky and Flash swatted him with perfect gameplay and reaction. Never really understood all of the Rain hate tbh. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On August 22 2019 07:07 superjoppe wrote: How can a random non-progamer at all state that Rain played like shit? In a long 40min game you can actually see how well someone plays, but in a short 10min game? In three short 10min games? It was just build-order wins for Flash. We could barely even see what strategies he had planned. The only real bad play I noticed was the dragoon getting killed in the last game. Lmao did you even watch the games? How were they build order wins? Gasless expand is common against Protoss and it's up to Protoss to punish accordingly. Game 2 Flash took a risk with proxy speed vultures and it paid off. Game 3 it was Rain who forced Flash into double barracks after gas steal. | ||
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Starecat
936 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On August 22 2019 10:53 Starecat wrote: I hope that Rain and Action don't undervalue the Third Place match, it can be a quite interesting match, but well you never know if the rumors about the "korean culture" will prove true. What rumors? Anyway Rain will obliterate Action | ||
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
He clutched game 7 vs Flash in the last ever Proleague Grand Final. If there must be one, the single most important game of his career. 11-16 vs Flash all time. The player Flash called his greatest rival. Holds by far the longest PvT win streak vs Flash at 5 over 8 months in 2009. Starting with a 2-1 comeback vs Flash in GOM Classic Season 2 quarters. 3-0 Skyhigh in semis. Wins the tournament. Far more impressive than the second best PvT streak vs Flash: Stork's 4 between 2 days in 2007. 5-2 vs terrans in 2007 GOM MSL ro16 and quarters. He won that tournament too. 3-0 vs Sea in Terror League grand final. 3-0 Last in VANT Starleague quarters. 3-1 Sharp in semis. 58-31 vs T in Proleague. Better than any other protoss. He is the best protoss player of all time. In PvT specifically, I put him 2nd best all time after Stork. Jangbi close at 3rd. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 22 2019 07:07 superjoppe wrote: How can a random non-progamer at all state that Rain played like shit? In a long 40min game you can actually see how well someone plays, but in a short 10min game? In three short 10min games? It was just build-order wins for Flash. We could barely even see what strategies he had planned. The only real bad play I noticed was the dragoon getting killed in the last game. It doesn't take a lot to say that rallying your first observer into turrets two games in a row and then dying to marines aren't great plays. When Rain is better than his opponent at a matchup, he absolutely stomps. But as we saw against Flash and against Effort last season, if he's up against a better player he just falls apart. Anyway, really excited for the finals. If Flash had retired without a rematch against Snow that would have been a travesty. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2391 Posts
On August 22 2019 10:26 Dante08 wrote: Lmao did you even watch the games? How were they build order wins? Gasless expand is common against Protoss and it's up to Protoss to punish accordingly. Game 2 Flash took a risk with proxy speed vultures and it paid off. Game 3 it was Rain who forced Flash into double barracks after gas steal. To answer the other poster who asked why people dislike Rain, this is why. Delusional fans that way, way overrate him. Plus his PvT play is just boring. Good micro and macro, no sense for the matchup. | ||
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Vinh1
5 Posts
Rain is also a genius in strategy but he is too lazy compared to Flash. Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On August 22 2019 06:09 Starecat wrote: Flash pain was visible, I hope he can be done with StarCraft and go home with a trophy. Honestly his pain is clear every stream now. Last finals, then it's time to heal. Already well and beyond legend status... | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On August 22 2019 11:57 Xxio wrote: He clutched game 7 vs Flash in the last ever Proleague Grand Final. If there must be one, the single most important game of his career. 11-16 vs Flash all time. The player Flash called his greatest rival. Holds by far the longest PvT win streak vs Flash at 5 over 8 months in 2009. Starting with a 2-1 comeback vs Flash in GOM Classic Season 2 quarters. 3-0 Skyhigh in semis. Wins the tournament. Far more impressive than the second best PvT streak vs Flash: Stork's 4 between 2 days in 2007. 5-2 vs terrans in 2007 GOM MSL ro16 and quarters. He won that tournament too. 3-0 vs Sea in Terror League grand final. 3-0 Last in VANT Starleague quarters. 3-1 Sharp in semis. 58-31 vs T in Proleague. Better than any other protoss. He is the best protoss player of all time. In PvT specifically, I put him 2nd best all time after Stork. Jangbi close at 3rd. Nice recap (: And the story will continue. Bisu is quickly regaining his his touch. | ||
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Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On August 22 2019 12:01 Turbovolver wrote: To answer the other poster who asked why people dislike Rain, this is why. Delusional fans that way, way overrate him. Not disagreeing, but I see how they might get that way. Rain strikes me as truly genius, but not always out for blood. He has a way of appearing like he doesn't care. It's easy to fall into this trap.. the S7 3rd-4th place match was a good example. I voted for him, and it was almost like he didn't bother to show up. I don't want to take anything away from Effort, btw, but I think a case could be made for expecting a Rain win there... right up until he lost. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:56 ShowTheLights wrote: Name 1 other time Rain actually CHOKED "deep in a tourney" I'm not gonna deny he played like shit game 2 and 3, but theres no possible way you can say Rain "chokes deep" in tournaments That is what I am saying! Rain never plays this bad, he is fucking amazing. So much so, I did not feel at all certain Flash of all people would win. He is a great champion. This time he choked. Like, I said - worst match he ever llayed. | ||
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avanhokie
50 Posts
On August 22 2019 12:38 Vinh1 wrote: Some people keep criticising Rain for his mistakes but tbh, loosing a first observer would not be a big deal if Rain's opponent is someone else other than Flash. There will always be a plethora of reasons for other players to loose to Flash. He has a genius for exploiting his opponent mistakes. Rain is also a genius in strategy but he is too lazy compared to Flash. Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL. Absolutely ridiculous statement, did you see Snow vs Last in ASL? or vs Last in End of the world? He can toy with a terran that beat Rain in ASL last season. His PvT is definitely better than Rain's and a statement that he is only hype is borderline trolling. Even online his records are better than Rain, the advantage Rain has is in PvP. Snow is catching up in PvZ and is already better by a good margin in PvT. Also Snow works harder than Rain in playing actual games, thats why he has seen such improvement in what was once one of the worst PvZ's in all of BW. Watch as Snow plays a competitive set vs Flash, whereas Rain was out of his depth. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote: From the Snow vs Flash thread: Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up. Were these online stats or ASL? If it's ASL I wouldn't pay much attention to it as the sample size is way too small. Also fair play to Snow that series but people forget that whether imbalanced or not, that map pool only had 1 standard 4 player macro map. This favors Protoss more, especially Snow since he likes to go for a harassment style and effectively takes Flash's biggest strength away which is macro. Yes Snow won on the standard macro map but to act like the maps didn't favor him is just wrong. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 22 2019 11:57 Xxio wrote: He clutched game 7 vs Flash in the last ever Proleague Grand Final. If there must be one, the single most important game of his career. 11-16 vs Flash all time. The player Flash called his greatest rival. Holds by far the longest PvT win streak vs Flash at 5 over 8 months in 2009. Starting with a 2-1 comeback vs Flash in GOM Classic Season 2 quarters. 3-0 Skyhigh in semis. Wins the tournament. Far more impressive than the second best PvT streak vs Flash: Stork's 4 between 2 days in 2007. 5-2 vs terrans in 2007 GOM MSL ro16 and quarters. He won that tournament too. 3-0 vs Sea in Terror League grand final. 3-0 Last in VANT Starleague quarters. 3-1 Sharp in semis. 58-31 vs T in Proleague. Better than any other protoss. He is the best protoss player of all time. In PvT specifically, I put him 2nd best all time after Stork. Jangbi close at 3rd. Hey thanks for the recap. I don't think I back down from what I say, as my frame of reference there is from 2006-2012. I don't disagree with what you say about the rankings, although it's hard to say if Jangbi should be #2 PvT or Bisu, but you might also want to consider Nal_ra there as he won some really important matchups PvT including over Nada for his OSL win. In terms of overall Protoss however, Bisu is the best by a country mile, achieved the most, and did more to advance the way people played protoss than any other person really. A couple counter points (keep in mind is that my point is the one knock about Bisu is he had a hard time, in the most important moments, with PvT, against the top tier terrans): -One of the wins you include in that 5 map win streak includes an all star game against Flash that noone takes seriously. It's a fun event for fans. -I didn't forget about the GOM classic, which was actually a bit of a surprising win at the time for Bisu where Bisu looked amazing. But people, including the players, didn't take that quite as seriously as they took the OSL/MSL. -Skyhigh wasn't seen as the absolute top tier at any point in his career and his TvP was particularly kinda awful for a player of his level. -The period from around the end of 2008 until the middle of 2009 was Flash's weakest time during 2008-2011, which is when Bisu did well against Flash. That's still really good, it wasn't like Flash was a bum lol, he was still incredibly good and generally a top 3 player during that time. -Other than that period in 2009, and particularly that GomTV series, Flash really had Bisu's number. One thing that was funny about Bisu was that at the very start of his career (pre-Savior MSL final), he was seen as a really strong macro protoss who's PvT and PvP were particularly strong. That was before he flipped the entire PvZ matchup on its head. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1541 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote: From the Snow vs Flash thread: Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up. Yea I think people get confused about Sparkle. TvP on Sparkle was fine, it was TvZ that felt unwinnable and left people questioning whether Sparkle was actually play tested. Zerg air superiority with mutas was real, and the moment a single Hydra drops in the Terran base = gg. Those stats surprise me though. Third World sure felt like some bullshit at the time. | ||
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Vinh1
5 Posts
On August 22 2019 15:34 avanhokie wrote: Absolutely ridiculous statement, did you see Snow vs Last in ASL? or vs Last in End of the world? He can toy with a terran that beat Rain in ASL last season. His PvT is definitely better than Rain's and a statement that he is only hype is borderline trolling. Even online his records are better than Rain, the advantage Rain has is in PvP. Snow is catching up in PvZ and is already better by a good margin in PvT. Also Snow works harder than Rain in playing actual games, thats why he has seen such improvement in what was once one of the worst PvZ's in all of BW. Watch as Snow plays a competitive set vs Flash, whereas Rain was out of his depth. Rain beat Last 3:1 in KSL vs ASL series last year in return. So? Online records are not applicable to Rain, because as I said, he is noticeably lazy and does not practice much. He is also known for spending time to test his strategies with computers. Flash also does that. Some people here can confirm. I see Snow is like Larva. They become hyped with some cool strategies but cannot keep up their games consistently. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Snow has been a league contender for a decade. They are not comparable, except the weird fact that if they played online larva (who is amazing) might beat him 9-1. | ||
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Vinh1
5 Posts
On August 22 2019 16:50 AttackZerg wrote: Ummm Larva has never been a contender and fails everytime he has a shot. Sometimes tragically. Snow has been a league contender for a decade. They are not comparable, except the weird fact that if they played online larva (who is amazing) might beat him 9-1. I was saying Snow is a case similar to Larva in a sense that Larva suddenly became a hype after he beat Jaedong. TL even has an article about him: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/532441-larva-no-more-the-evolution Still remember many people expected Larva would become a new Jaedong. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Game 1: The recall fake was nice, but he recalled 20+ zealots into 1 tanks and 10 vultures...I can't possibly imagine why he would choose to recall that force there. If he had recalled over the main tank line, he could've potentially busted Flash.... Game 2: Losing those probes and getting his two stargates scouted was very unfortunate for Rain. But why on earth would he opt for that strategy in the first place? If they were cross positions, maybe he could've gotten away with skipping reavers. But with those spawn points versus Flash? I just can't quite understand why he would skip reavers there... Game 3: Can't tell if losing his dragoon was a ramp bug or if he mismicroed or both. But right as he was about to clean the initial force up, and right as the bunker was about to finish -- he sends all his probes back to mine?! The game was probably over the moment Rain lost one of his first dragoons, but the game is 100% over if Flash is able to set up a bunker in front of your gateway... | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:20 Sigrun wrote: No, he didn't. Flash won the maps that were Protoss favored (Transistor and the island map) but lost on the more balanced ones (Third World, Gladiator). third world is not balanced at all. the abusive shit you can pull on that map is unfunny | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
On August 22 2019 09:32 Sigrun wrote: From the Snow vs Flash thread: Transistor was the most imbalanced map (which Flash won), with Third World only being slightly P favored in comparison. And turns out Sparkle was actually T favored but of course no one brings that up. I don't know where the data comes from, but since Third World was only played for one ASL season, I don't think the statistical data here is meaningful. My impression of Third World was that the map forced every T to decide the game quickly, because he had no way to handle Protoss on the island side of the map. Protoss could warp 4 gates without a big investment and make the whole side almost untouchable for Terra, while Terra could at best secure the Expo at the starting position with tanks (also not really). A map that forces a race to win quickly must be ridiculously imbalanced. And so it fits into the picture that Snow won 2x Third World. I also don't know why it is constantly stressed that Flash won on transistor. Does that speak for Snow that he lost against Flash on a (also statistically) p favored map? | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
if i 2fact on a protoss favored map the map really doesn't matter so much anymore. you can choice certain playstyles that are less safe to overcome some of the map imbalances in scbw this is what happend on transistor when flash went for an all-in early push to end the game. even pros and casters saying third world needed to go.. i dont really hate third world or something i like to see flash try and do the impossible but still... dont want to see it again 2 TIMES in a bo5 hell no. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 22 2019 18:36 asel wrote: I also don't know why it is constantly stressed that Flash won on transistor. Does that speak for Snow that he lost against Flash on a (also statistically) p favored map? Because the argument is Transistor was the only P favored map. And since Flash won there despite the odds, it being imbalanced does not matter. Which makes perfect sense. However, as folks have pointed out. Third World is imbalanced as well. And it was played twice, with Flash losing both times. Anyway, both Flash and Snow fans should be glad we get a rematch. And in a bo7 finals no less. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 22 2019 16:45 Vinh1 wrote: Rain beat Last 3:1 in KSL vs ASL series last year in return. So? Online records are not applicable to Rain, because as I said, he is noticeably lazy and does not practice much. He is also known for spending time to test his strategies with computers. Flash also does that. Some people here can confirm. I see Snow is like Larva. They become hyped with some cool strategies but cannot keep up their games consistently. Snow is the only Protoss to beat Flash in a best-of series in more than a decade, this is his second finals appearance and he's top 4 last KSL by virtue of defeating the best zerg at the time. Consistency can be a problem, I agree, he lost to JyJ in the qualis for KSL2. Still, I'd consider him to be at least even in chances against pretty much everyone atm except for Flash and Rain. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1340 Posts
On August 22 2019 12:38 Vinh1 wrote: Snow is just a hype. He even couldn't make it to R8 last ASL. He beat Flash the last series they played lol | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Humans are bad at factoring in variance. News at 11. I don't think Snow has a chance v Flash, but I'd love to be proven wrong. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 23 2019 00:35 KamMoye wrote: Some strong recency bias for Snow. He hasn't proven consistency yet. He's on the long-term come-up. But the scene is so watered down now. Would anyone be surprised if, say, ZerO 3-0'd Snow next season? Or Soma won 3-1? I wouldn't. Humans are bad at factoring in variance. News at 11. I don't think Snow has a chance v Flash, but I'd love to be proven wrong. The "recency bias" is due to the fact Snow is having good results this year and that it seems that he has fixed his PvZ. Snow's chanches to beat Flash are surely higher than Rain's, like he showed in ASL 5. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
I was never that impressed with Rain, at least relative to his reputation. His series loss against Larva really gave me the impression that he has a tendency to just ram his massive army into the opposition. He crushes lesser Zs and Ts this way, but ends up suiciding his army to other players. His vP this season has been very impressive though. Having said all that, I am personally more impressed with Snow's PvT and PvZ compared to that of Rain's. Snow was always a PvT specialist even back in the day. But like almost every other P, he couldnt PvZ to save his life. His vZ looked good this season, but it remains to be seen whether he can be consistent. | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
On August 23 2019 03:19 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Snow has a lot to prove with regards to consistency. Just the way it is when you start showing results like he has. I was never that impressed with Rain, at least relative to his reputation. His series loss against Larva really gave me the impression that he has a tendency to just ram his massive army into the opposition. He crushes lesser Zs and Ts this way, but ends up suiciding his army to other players. His vP this season has been very impressive though. Having said all that, I am personally more impressed with Snow's PvT and PvZ compared to that of Rain's. Snow was always a PvT specialist even back in the day. But like almost every other P, he couldnt PvZ to save his life. His vZ looked good this season, but it remains to be seen whether he can be consistent. I have exactly the same thoughts. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
Thank you Flash and I am sorry to have doubt you there for a second! GGs | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 23 2019 00:35 KamMoye wrote: Some strong recency bias for Snow. He hasn't proven consistency yet. He's on the long-term come-up. But the scene is so watered down now. Would anyone be surprised if, say, ZerO 3-0'd Snow next season? Or Soma won 3-1? I wouldn't. Humans are bad at factoring in variance. News at 11. I don't think Snow has a chance v Flash, but I'd love to be proven wrong. I suppose recency bias is another word for good current form, because he's the top offline PvTer right now and has greatly improved on his PvZ. We have to see if Best and Stork can deliver when not eliminated by other Protoss. Point is, Snow is not "just a hype" as he reaches another final in four seasons of the ASL and top four in KSL. Consistency is, again, still an issue. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 21 2019 20:45 asel wrote: Just got a sick flashback of this thread. Holy cow that thread. The amount of people saying that was a bad final because Flash won and in a little time nobody would remembre who he was or that he won an OSL. Even Day9? LOL that thread is golden. At least GTR said Flash would dominate StarCraft for a couple of year xD and there were a couple of random TL users (sorry guys ) that said Flash´s era was beginning.Funny also that one of those random users was also saying (as a joke mind you) that Tasteless would someday guest commentate at a finals event xD Better yet there was one guy complaining that Flash was his most hated player and that him winning made everything worse for him. I sure as hell hope that guy stopped watching StarCraft soon after! Otherwise life has been sad for him for a while. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 23 2019 04:57 KobraKay wrote: Better yet there was one guy complaining that Flash was his most hated player and that him winning made everything worse for him. I sure as hell hope that guy stopped watching StarCraft soon after! Otherwise life has been sad for him for a while. lol, dont know who you are referring to, but this is making me think of an old TL user and all around Flash hater: Lightwip Miss that dude :p | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On August 23 2019 00:35 KamMoye wrote: Some strong recency bias for Snow. He hasn't proven consistency yet. He's on the long-term come-up. But the scene is so watered down now. Would anyone be surprised if, say, ZerO 3-0'd Snow next season? Or Soma won 3-1? I wouldn't. Humans are bad at factoring in variance. News at 11. I don't think Snow has a chance v Flash, but I'd love to be proven wrong. He hasn't proven consistency in PvT? Interesting to write him off vs Flash, considering he won last time. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 23 2019 05:33 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: lol, dont know who you are referring to, but this is making me think of an old TL user and all around Flash hater: Lightwip Miss that dude :p Nah Lightwip I remember. I Started browsing TL roughly around the time of that thread despite only registering later and IIRC that guy came some time after only. Or at least I noticed him after only. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 23 2019 05:33 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: lol, dont know who you are referring to, but this is making me think of an old TL user and all around Flash hater: Lightwip Miss that dude :p Reminds me of the first couple power rank entries about flash lol After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management. But given Flash’s age and the fact that he just cruised into both Starleagues, he deserves a low slot in the Power Rank. I don't like him, you don't like him... Maybe some of you like him, I dunno. That doesn't matter. What matters is that Flash is playing really, really good. Straight wins, too. No cheese from the kid in quite a while. Flash cruised easily into both leagues this season, so we'll see what he can do. Gotta give credit where it's due, even if Flash does look vaguely like a confused fish. Trying to place Flash in this month’s Power Rank was a frustrating experience for me. On the one hand, his record is incredible, but on the other hand, I can make an “excuse” for every one of his wins. Many of his wins are against players who are weak vT. Others involve favorable maps or cheese builds. Then there was his recent Bo3 against Bisu, which didn’t reflect much in the way of confidence despite his 2-0 win. Still, with an unprecedented career record of 15-3 and losses to only Savior, Boxer, and Hwasin, Flash is getting results. I know he has some skill, but Flash isn't making it easy for me to figure out just how much. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 23 2019 09:01 LG)Sabbath wrote: Flash is kinda like Djokovic in tennis, you may not like his personality or whatever but he demolishes everyone anyway, and eventually lots of people started liking him This was me. After he proved he wasn't just a flash in the pan, he was the achilles heel of my favorite player. Over time, I became a fan because... how can you not respect someone who is so hard working and talented. It took a few years but after wcg2010, I have been watching in awe. If it wasn't for him Jaedong may have been the god-of-broodwar. But he has proved himself to be amazing in every era. Hats off to the master. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 23 2019 09:01 LG)Sabbath wrote: Flash is kinda like Djokovic in tennis, you may not like his personality or whatever but he demolishes everyone anyway, and eventually lots of people started liking him Funny I always thought people hated him more the more he won. | ||
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TonDan
65 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 23 2019 07:57 ColdLava wrote: Reminds me of the first couple power rank entries about flash lol Ahhhh yes. The Power Rank and Lightwip. Both biased against Flash. I got my one of my accounts on TL banned because the power rank - after Flash's OSL/MSL dual victory - still refused to call him a Bonjwa, making up a BS reasoning about how "God" was a better title than Bonjwa. | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2227 Posts
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GTR
51429 Posts
On August 23 2019 04:57 KobraKay wrote: At least GTR said Flash would dominate StarCraft for a couple of year xD and there were a couple of random TL users (sorry guys ) that said Flash´s era was beginning.when i re-entered following the pro scene after a brief year-long or so hiatus (aka the savior era), one of the first few matches i watched was flash's ODT qualifiers. i then found out that he was my age - people my age at that time (14/15) didn't qualify for OSL's on their first attempt unless they had absurd amounts of talent. i then knew that he was special and would continue to beat the flash hype drum for years to come. when it was all said and done though, i didn't think though he'd end up eclipsing nada though. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 23 2019 15:32 GTR wrote: when i re-entered following the pro scene after a brief year-long or so hiatus (aka the savior era), one of the first few matches i watched was flash's ODT qualifiers. i then found out that he was my age - people my age at that time (14/15) didn't qualify for OSL's on their first attempt unless they had absurd amounts of talent. i then knew that he was special and would continue to beat the flash hype drum for years to come. when it was all said and done though, i didn't think though he'd end up eclipsing nada though. Sorry if my aging memory is failing me... but wasn't Nada also very young when he ascended? I seem to remember him being young even in comparison to his very young peers. Man... age is stealing my memories! | ||
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GTR
51429 Posts
he started playing professionally when he was 16 the first big "child prodigy" was probably  fOfy (who debut'd at 14), but he decided to retire and focus on school. then after that is Sea and we all know how his career ended up. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7948 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 23 2019 17:49 GTR wrote: nada was 18 when he won his first osl he started playing professionally when he was 16 the first big "child prodigy" was probably fOfy (who debut'd at 14), but he decided to retire and focus on school. then after that is Sea and we all know how his career ended up.Thanks. Yeah 18 and a champion. Pretty remarkable still. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 23 2019 00:50 Xain0n wrote: The "recency bias" is due to the fact Snow is having good results this year and that it seems that he has fixed his PvZ. Snow's chanches to beat Flash are surely higher than Rain's, like he showed in ASL 5. I mean, maybe. I think Rain is a significantly better player than Snow, and I think that matters far more in a BoX than in Bo1s/online games. But I'm happy to concede the point of Snow > Rain vT, or v Flash. That doesn't mean anything to me, and was never what I was debating. Just a strawman. Rain isn't an S-class player to me either. Flash is an S-class player. He is the only S-class player in the scene. That's my point. Unfortunately for the rest of the competition, he's the best S-class player who has ever existed. My point is Snow is an A-class player. Sure, Snow could pull an EffOrt and upset Flash. It would be incredible to witness, and one of the greatest accomplishments in Brood War history. Of course, EffOrt beating Flash didn't make him an S-class player, either. I'm sure some rabid EffOrt fans will disagree, but I'm reserving S-class for legends. Not the Hall of Very Good. If we want to be more pedantic, one could say Snow may not be an S-class player, but could he put together an S-class *performance*? That's a better question. My money is still on "no." I'll lay 2.5:1 odds on anyone who wishes to bet on Snow, $20 per person, maximum of 10 bets. That converts to Snow having to win just 29% of the time for the person betting on Snow to breakeven. If people don't think Snow is at least 29% to win v Flash in the Finals, well, I rest my case. I mean, he beat Flash last time he played! He should be at least 50% to win!!?! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24977 Posts
On August 24 2019 06:49 KamMoye wrote: I mean, maybe. I think Rain is a significantly better player than Snow, and I think that matters far more in a BoX than in Bo1s/online games. But I'm happy to concede the point of Snow > Rain vT, or v Flash. That doesn't mean anything to me, and was never what I was debating. Just a strawman. Rain isn't an S-class player to me either. Flash is an S-class player. He is the only S-class player in the scene. That's my point. Unfortunately for the rest of the competition, he's the best S-class player who has ever existed. My point is Snow is an A-class player. Sure, Snow could pull an EffOrt and upset Flash. It would be incredible to witness, and one of the greatest accomplishments in Brood War history. Of course, EffOrt beating Flash didn't make him an S-class player, either. I'm sure some rabid EffOrt fans will disagree, but I'm reserving S-class for legends. Not the Hall of Very Good. If we want to be more pedantic, one could say Snow may not be an S-class player, but could he put together an S-class *performance*? That's a better question. My money is still on "no." I'll lay 2.5:1 odds on anyone who wishes to bet on Snow, $20 per person, maximum of 10 bets. That converts to Snow having to win just 29% of the time for the person betting on Snow to breakeven. If people don't think Snow is at least 29% to win v Flash in the Finals, well, I rest my case. I mean, he beat Flash last time he played! He should be at least 50% to win!!?! I don’t really think some of those players aren’t S class, merely that Flash is so good he’s basically above even S class | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On August 24 2019 05:18 Djabanete wrote: The thing that stuck out to me about Flash in 2010 was that he was a master of miracles. He could salvage any losing game, seemingly no matter how bad it looked. I remember live report threads that went like this: "Another attack on Flash's 3rd." "Flash lifts his 3rd." "Flash lifts his 4th." "Recall in Flash's main." "Flash has nothing left." "GG Flash wins." Such creative play and so many memorable games. And his game sense. You get posts like: "If flash did that on iccup he'd be banned"; "I swear Flash is cheating, I dont care if I never prove it". He'd predict 2hatch lurker out of nothing or turn his scouting scv around the opposite direction to see a proxy. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
after all these years terran mech is still untouchable vs protoss User was warned for this post. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1166 Posts
On August 24 2019 19:16 BerserkSword wrote: just watched the games on youtube after all these years terran mech is still untouchable vs protoss Flash should go infantry vs snow :D | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
On August 24 2019 19:16 BerserkSword wrote: after all these years terran mech is still untouchable vs protoss When Jangbi won his two OSLs and he beat the best terrans in BoX then, was mech so untouchable as well? Or protoss then was untouchable, wasn't it? Please do not turn this into some balance whine. You would insult both Flash and Rain this way. Let's just give credit to the amazing players who know the ins and outs of their races and are able to show them in such a magnificent way that they can sometimes make a race seem like it is overpowered. | ||
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Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
On August 24 2019 22:06 JoinTheRain wrote: When Jangbi won his two OSLs and he beat the best terrans in BoX then, was mech so untouchable as well? Or protoss then was untouchable, wasn't it? Please do not turn this into some balance whine. You would insult both Flash and Rain this way. Let's just give credit to the amazing players who know the ins and outs of their races and are able to show them in such a magnificent way that they can sometimes make a race seem like it is overpowered. Exactly what i was thinking watching the series, it was about how perfect Jangbi was playing back in pro days defeating greatest Nada, Flash and Fantasy and now i see players without much practice struggling to perform well, otherwise good ideas for their games. Skill is definitely lower and its obvious. What i see is just not that well calculated, practiced and performed compared to kespa bw. Because of that, games takes much more unexpected turns, which can lead to more confusion to players and strange games like action vs sharp for example. Many people praised Rain like the one with the chance to win vs flash i rememer there was a big discusion about same thing with Larva. I never understand that, first Larva never proven himself to be strong player in any ASL or KSL and Rain never did anything spectacular in PvT either. He is strong player nevertheless and i was expecting more from him since he seems to get better and better. I was thinking of 3-1 or 3-2, but he showed weak play. Is pvt his weakest matchup? Maybe. Making such blunders like recalling zealots on vultures instead of tanks was crucial or fighting dragoons vs tanks in last fight is very basic, you cannot expect to win that way even if it was another terran player on the opposite. This offensive recall brings me memories of a great game Horang2 vs Flash from Proleague Playoffs, for anyone who hasnt watched it, be prepared tol be amazed by Horang2 play. That was the time when flash had that monstrous dominance and something like 14-15 winstreak in proleague matches. | ||
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Starecat
936 Posts
Every race kinda have their time to shine like 200/200 Zerg. And it's weird to see someone as a viewer complain about a race that has the least OSLs titles, even PvP finals were like two? And as a player many people (Artosis included) are on a consensus that when the skill level is low TvP is harder for Terran. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 26 2019 06:23 Aminus wrote: Exactly what i was thinking watching the series, it was about how perfect Jangbi was playing back in pro days defeating greatest Nada, Flash and Fantasy and now i see players without much practice struggling to perform well, otherwise good ideas for their games. Skill is definitely lower and its obvious. What i see is just not that well calculated, practiced and performed compared to kespa bw. Because of that, games takes much more unexpected turns, which can lead to more confusion to players and strange games like action vs sharp for example. Many people praised Rain like the one with the chance to win vs flash i rememer there was a big discusion about same thing with Larva. I never understand that, first Larva never proven himself to be strong player in any ASL or KSL and Rain never did anything spectacular in PvT either. He is strong player nevertheless and i was expecting more from him since he seems to get better and better. I was thinking of 3-1 or 3-2, but he showed weak play. Is pvt his weakest matchup? Maybe. Making such blunders like recalling zealots on vultures instead of tanks was crucial or fighting dragoons vs tanks in last fight is very basic, you cannot expect to win that way even if it was another terran player on the opposite. This offensive recall brings me memories of a great game Horang2 vs Flash from Proleague Playoffs, for anyone who hasnt watched it, be prepared tol be amazed by Horang2 play. That was the time when flash had that monstrous dominance and something like 14-15 winstreak in proleague matches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6O7VbIy-vk I remember seeing that game. Mixed emotions there! I take this opportunity to ask what can be a dumb question but here it goes. Is there a special way to watch the liquipedia vods? I've searched for a few old (2010/2011) maps and tried to watch the recommended/notable games on that map and none of the VODs worked. I was thinking about watching an old PL season if I can find the vods but so far the liquipedia ones for individual games are not showing for me. Nevake on youtube seems like the best chance but Im afraid that I will stumble into issues like with the NalRa old boy series where some episodes are region locked for some reason T_T | ||
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FakeFin
Germany392 Posts
On August 29 2019 03:39 KobraKay wrote: I remember seeing that game. Mixed emotions there! I take this opportunity to ask what can be a dumb question but here it goes. Is there a special way to watch the liquipedia vods? I've searched for a few old (2010/2011) maps and tried to watch the recommended/notable games on that map and none of the VODs worked. I was thinking about watching an old PL season if I can find the vods but so far the liquipedia ones for individual games are not showing for me. Nevake on youtube seems like the best chance but Im afraid that I will stumble into issues like with the NalRa old boy series where some episodes are region locked for some reason T_T I think the best way is to watch them through tlpd | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 26 2019 06:23 Aminus wrote: Exactly what i was thinking watching the series, it was about how perfect Jangbi was playing back in pro days defeating greatest Nada, Flash and Fantasy and now i see players without much practice struggling to perform well, otherwise good ideas for their games. Skill is definitely lower and its obvious. What i see is just not that well calculated, practiced and performed compared to kespa bw. Because of that, games takes much more unexpected turns, which can lead to more confusion to players and strange games like action vs sharp for example. Agreed. There is simply no comparison. Many people praised Rain like the one with the chance to win vs flash i rememer there was a big discusion about same thing with Larva. I never understand that, first Larva never proven himself to be strong player in any ASL or KSL and Rain never did anything spectacular in PvT either. Wanting, pure and simple. We all want someone to give Flash a run for his money. And Rain was admittedly having a dominant season against everyone who wasn't Flash. Disappointed no one wishes to bet on Snow v Flash. Oh well. It's likely to be a roflstomp by Flash, and if it is, it will be immensely disappointing, confirming what we already knew. But if it isn't? Won't you want to say you saw it live? The difference b/w Jangbi at the time and Snow is, well, quite a bit: - Jangbi had a long history of hypermegaelite play v Terran, and still holds the ELO peak in PvT - Yes, Jangbi was in a multi-year slump for a while, but he was peaking at the right time - Jangbi was extremely hungry to accomplish something that, in his long career, he never really accomplished. Is Snow really that hungry? Or is he just happy to be here? | ||
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Afreeca Starleague Season 8![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
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