[ASL8] Ro8 Day4 Rain vs Sacsri
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3302 Posts
His PvZ is not the best but he is still much more accomplished then Sacsri. | ||
oEkY
Germany641 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
Heart: Sacsri | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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nikolaus8844
101 Posts
That's all good though, cos they we'll have Flash vs Rain next week! | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
for me its almost flip here, slightly better odds for Rain 3-2 imo for someone | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
sacrsi tryed to cut corners by not building sunkens, did not pay off | ||
veQ
Poland339 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:20 razorsuKe wrote: hhmmm you think rain chose this zeal aggression build cause sacsri decided to go for that offensive 3rd location? No. Pre meditated imo. Due to map. Any third you take as Zerg and you will be vulnerable to 4 gate zealot +1 opening. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
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LV_426
Poland432 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3302 Posts
On August 13 2019 16:42 AzAlexZ wrote: Rain 3-1 His PvZ is not the best but he is still much more accomplished then Sacsri. I know I predicted a 3-1, bu I change my mind, Rain will probably advance 3-0. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
I see his sad eyes | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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veQ
Poland339 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
series without protoss => great series series with protoss => boring series | ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
very bad display by sacsri | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
On August 13 2019 17:02 RowdierBob wrote: I think Sacsri upsets Rain here. Good call, me. | ||
veQ
Poland339 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
"Why did I practice so hard for this?" - upset Rain | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2675 Posts
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IRseriousCat-
74 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:58 Jackal03 wrote: Rain easy 3-0 very bad display by sacsri Agreed. Rain deserves his 3-0, but glaring errors in all 3 games by Sacsri. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
soma vs rain would have been much more competitive | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
sacssri seemed very nervous, his nerves seemed to get worse as the games went on. Flash vs. Rain will be one to watch, but I think Snow vs. Flash is the best final we could hope for. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
He should work on his nerves, you can never be a champion if you don't have the right mindset | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19032 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On August 13 2019 20:35 BisuDagger wrote: I'm a huge fan of fast +1 speedlot builds. In response to Artosis advising against the probe cutting builds at lower levels, the Bisu variation of the build is more noob friendly if anyone wants to try it. However, I thought Rain's version was very impressive too. What he did better then most protoss these days is bounce with his army. Every macro round of gateway units went to a different base. It made me happy to see him play the matchup so well. yeah, seeing the spread of those zealots between bases and sacsri's slow reaction to them shows how easy it is to fluster your opponent even at the top level | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 13 2019 20:24 Jackal03 wrote: Sacsri was very nervous, perhaps he was afraid of rain He should work on his nerves, you can never be a champion if you don't have the right mindset Nothing too unexpected, that's his first ASL elimination match and he's up against the arguably best player in the world. Rain played 14 games against Action on Saturday and won 8-6. Rain is just Rain, he struggles online against the top zergs and then when he has to prepare for a big match, he goes and comfortably outplays Action. This guy's head is huge. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On August 13 2019 20:58 TaardadAiel wrote: Nothing too unexpected, that's his first ASL elimination match and he's up against the arguably best player in the world. He played 14 games against Action on Saturday and won 8-6. Rain is just Rain, he struggles online against the top zergs and then when he has to prepare for a big match, he goes and comfortably outplays Action. This guy's head is huge. Good to know, I hope he rises up and become a top zerg, we are missing great zerg players after effort left and jaedong is not top anymore | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
But Rain is really peculiar, I sometimes think he's not entirely human. I mean, he's 4-10 vs Action in July, he loses left and right to ZerO and JD in early August and then he just decides he needs to up his game, plays 14 damn games in a row against same Action and defeats him. I am slightly worried for Flash, although I still consider him the favourite. | ||
Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
I watched it again, i am not even sure i can point out a single thing that Rain could have done better. | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
On August 13 2019 21:44 TaardadAiel wrote: He's almost there, to be honest. He's improved tremendously in recent tournaments. Remember he beat Mini 3-0 and then narrowly lost the rematch 2-3 when Mini was in probably the best form of his career so far, particularly in PvZ. I don't think know if he has the psyche for the biggest of stages though. But Rain is really peculiar, I sometimes think he's not entirely human. I mean, he's 4-10 vs Action in July, he loses left and right to ZerO and JD in early August and then he just decides he needs to up his game, plays 14 damn games in a row against same Action and defeats him. I am slightly worried for Flash, although I still consider him the favourite. I think Action has a pretty good shot at taking down Snow in the Ro4. I'd only put Snow at a 55% advantage. I don't think Action has the mechanics of an effort or SK to be a real tournament winner yet, but he's definitely a competent series player and very tricky. Rain played basically perfectly today? Sacscri definitely had some nerves issues :\. The Ro4 is going to be sick. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19032 Posts
On August 13 2019 23:11 TornadoSteve wrote: The first game of the series was one of the most impressive PvZ game ive seen and i feel like this is an under statement. I watched it again, i am not even sure i can point out a single thing that Rain could have done better. The major flaw in game 1 was that he was forced to build a dragoon.It tells the whole build. Overlord scouts no stargate, the forge spinning, and a dragoon means corsairs are not coming for this fast speedlot build. Once the dragoon was out the build was blown, but surprisingly Sacsri didn't understand what he was seeing at the time due to nerves. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
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VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
I loved how Tasteless caught the fact that Rain only had his probes on the 2nd gas while the overlord was watching, well done! And I loved the nuance of the fan showing an image of Rain and Bisu together, as the master is back. | ||
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
On August 14 2019 01:49 GGzerG wrote: Where are the VOD's? http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/46820048 | ||
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On August 14 2019 01:14 BisuDagger wrote: The major flaw in game 1 was that he was forced to build a dragoon.It tells the whole build. Overlord scouts no stargate, the forge spinning, and a dragoon means corsairs are not coming for this fast speedlot build. Once the dragoon was out the build was blown, but surprisingly Sacsri didn't understand what he was seeing at the time due to nerves. Theres that, but i assume at this level hiding a pylon into another main to hide a citadel would be quite dumb. I mean at this level, you cant quite surprise your opponent with what youre doing, you can just surprise your opponent with the timing that you are doing it. And his build did about just that, cutting probes to build the nexus at 11 actually make Rain to make his 2nd pylon when his cybernetic core was almost done. He started his citadel right after his 2nd pylon, which is crazy fast. I dont know if he knew that sacsri had no plans to build a spire whatsoever, but his build in the first 2 games was just perfect counter. And his army movements (it has been discussed before) is probably the best in the business at the moment, along with Flash. People are impressed with Rain's macro, fair enough, but while hes macroing on his tiny screen_lol, he also move his army in a way that even Bisu has never did before. Note how he cleaned the scouting path for the 4 templars to attack the 3rd, and he even escorted them with his 1st group of zealots a few seconds before. Flawless | ||
outscar
2788 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
On August 14 2019 03:48 letian wrote: Where can I watch the games? Afreeca links are not working for me. If you're ok without the English cast, then Flash uploaded his commentary on youtube for all the games. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 14 2019 01:14 BisuDagger wrote: The major flaw in game 1 was that he was forced to build a dragoon.It tells the whole build. Overlord scouts no stargate, the forge spinning, and a dragoon means corsairs are not coming for this fast speedlot build. Once the dragoon was out the build was blown, but surprisingly Sacsri didn't understand what he was seeing at the time due to nerves. The dragoon to kill overlord is not necessarily a tell of a non sair opening. It's more like "ok they are staying in my main with overlord, free kill." The early supply block on Zerg really hurts them, and denying the scouting is good regardless of P build. Protosses WILL do this with sair openings. Edit: a few related details about game 1 - Tasteless pointed out that Rain made the 2nd gas and then pulled ALL 3 probes off once scouting was denied @ natural. Sacsri never actually saw the citadel in main with initial overlord, the only info was that +1 timing on forge and presumably he saw the 2nd gas as well. So yes you know it will be some kind of zealot opening, but the follow up is not clear at all. Sacsri might presume from 2nd gas it is an archon or sair follow up rather than the straight 4 gates before other tech. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: I think the probe pulls deserve an "If you have time" vote. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 14 2019 06:08 Geographer wrote: What a pathetic showing by the zerg. Zergs used to stomp Protosses with hydra busts as regularly as the sun rising in the east, now they can't pull it off at all. What changed? Nothing changed in a general sense of the matchup. Rain v Sacsri was arguably the best P right now vs an up and coming Z who had a bad day. Games 2 and 3 were quite winnable positions for Sacsri. He had good ideas all 3 games, but again the execution was lacking compared to Rain's near flawless execution. | ||
StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
EDIT: Forget it, just found the list on Afreeca and Youtube http://bj.afreecatv.com/aslenglish/vods AfreecaTV eSports | ||
ggrrg
Bulgaria2708 Posts
On August 13 2019 23:58 Ideas wrote: I think Action has a pretty good shot at taking down Snow in the Ro4. I'd only put Snow at a 55% advantage. I don't think Action has the mechanics of an effort or SK to be a real tournament winner yet, but he's definitely a competent series player and very tricky. Rain played basically perfectly today? Sacscri definitely had some nerves issues :\. The Ro4 is going to be sick. I also feel that Action has a decent shot against Snow, but I surely hope that he loses. Despite Rain's online PvZ performance I expect Action to look only marginally better than Sacsri in the finals of the ASL. And if Flash reaches the finals, he will most likely simply speedrun through Action... On August 14 2019 01:50 VioleTAK wrote: ... I loved how Tasteless caught the fact that Rain only had his probes on the 2nd gas while the overlord was watching, well done! ... Tasteless casting bw PvX is absolutely incomparable to him casting any other bw matchup of any sc2 games. | ||
ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1654 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:45 nojok wrote: Hurr durr zealots 1A2A3A Are you fucking dumb? Rain sent out a 2nd probe, something 99% of protoss's never do (including him, his starsense felt the desperateness from the Zerg). He easily could have gotten busted that game User was warned for this post. | ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 14 2019 10:33 ShowTheLights wrote: Are you fucking dumb? Rain sent out a 2nd probe, something 99% of protoss's never do (including him, his starsense felt the desperateness from the Zerg). He easily could have gotten busted that game I don't mean to pry when you have such a good time insulting someone online because HE'S WRONG ON THE INTERNET, but this could've been ironic. | ||
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria386 Posts
But even as they are short and brutal - they were spectacular in their own way. Rain was just too good today. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1152 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:10 Alpha-NP- wrote: Guys who do you think the stronger Protoss is between Snow and Rain? Like I know Rain is the best PvP player and always wins Snow. But PvZ and PvT, to me, it seems like Snow is the better player. I remember Snow outplaying Jaedong PvZ in a recent tour. And Snow also beat Flash to win an ASL albeit on P favored maps. What is others opinions? Thanks. very much depends on their current shape and mood. I'd say snows PvT is better than Rain and Rain's PvZ is stronger than Snow But, trust me - it's just personal opinion, everything can look way different depending from game to game. | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:10 Alpha-NP- wrote: Guys who do you think the stronger Protoss is between Snow and Rain? Like I know Rain is the best PvP player and always wins Snow. But PvZ and PvT, to me, it seems like Snow is the better player. I remember Snow outplaying Jaedong PvZ in a recent tour. And Snow also beat Flash to win an ASL albeit on P favored maps. What is others opinions? Thanks. Really difficult to call. Rain get a lot of hype because of how good his PvP is, but his PvT and PvZ leave a bit to be desired (at the top level). Snow's PvT is immaculate, and he's been showing good form with PvZ through reaver usage, but still he's inconsistent. It's too hard to call who's the best "protoss" (at least til bisu gets back) really there's nothing that i can say that'll change your mind. | ||
QOGQOG
817 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:10 Alpha-NP- wrote: Guys who do you think the stronger Protoss is between Snow and Rain? Like I know Rain is the best PvP player and always wins Snow. But PvZ and PvT, to me, it seems like Snow is the better player. I remember Snow outplaying Jaedong PvZ in a recent tour. And Snow also beat Flash to win an ASL albeit on P favored maps. What is others opinions? Thanks. I'm a big Snow fan, so a little biased, but I think Snow is stronger on the whole. While he doesn't have the titles, if it weren't for having to PvP Rain, he probably would have won ASL5 and KSL3--he eliminated the defending champions in both. PvP: Rain is way better than everyone else. Snow is arguably second best, but it's a wide gap. Advantage: Rain. PvZ: The last time Rain faced a high end zerg was him going 0-3 against Effort in ASL7. Snow recently won 3-1 against Soulkey in KSL3 (also beat him in ASL7). Effort is/was better and more consistent than Soulkey, but I don't know of any time where Rain actually defeated a great zerg. Probably the weakest matchup for both of them, though both have gotten better over time, especially Snow who used to always lose. Advantage: Snow. PvT: Snow is the only one to defeat Flash, but Rain hasn't ever faced him offline. They've both had some inconsistency: Snow has a habit of getting knocked out of qualifiers by low-tier terrans, while Rain has a more back-and-forth record vs, say, Last, while Snow consistently stomps. There's some rivalry between Rain and Sharp as well, whereas Snow won easily against Sharp the one time they played (KSL1). However, Snow is the stronger of the two because Snow has never lost a series to a terran in ASL or KSL. The only time I'm aware of that Snow was eliminated by a terran is when he got proxied by Last in a Bo1 in ASL7. Advantage: Snow. All that said, the Ro4 matchups will probably show us a lot: they're each essentially facing harder versions of the other's Ro8 matches. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
I used to say the same about Effort for a long time - I always considered him to be one of the most mechanically dominant players of all time (all races), but he kept flopping out of tournaments left and right until ASL6 came around and showed how good he could be at his best. I'm rooting for Snow to win this entire thing just for the storylines. With Snow at the top of his game, Rain still quite dominant, and Bisu back, it will be a great time for Starcraft. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 14 2019 12:39 BigBalls wrote: Tried Rain's 11 nexus 11 forge build on ladder today, got 4 pooled and lost immediately Hah, that'll happen. Just a note on this build, because Tastosis was making this sound like a completely new thing. It's not Rain's build, it had been around for awhile. Some may remember it being used at the end of the Proleague era on Chain Reaction. It may have been used prior to that as well, just going from memory here. It's mostly meant for 2 player maps with rush distance long enough to where you can still defend vs overpool. But Protosses have mixed this build in on all maps for years. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 15 2019 04:33 fearthequeen wrote: Hah, that'll happen. Just a note on this build, because Tastosis was making this sound like a completely new thing. It's not Rain's build, it had been around for awhile. Some may remember it being used at the end of the Proleague era on Chain Reaction. It may have been used prior to that as well, just going from memory here. It's mostly meant for 2 player maps with rush distance long enough to where you can still defend vs overpool. But Protosses have mixed this build in on all maps for years. I'd recommend trying nexus first when you're at top right, bottom left FS. 12 Nex, 12 forge, 12 cannon. 1 hex gap in wall | ||
KobraKay
Portugal4010 Posts
On August 15 2019 01:39 Jaeyun wrote: Snow and Rain are both amazing players. At the highest of levels (and at any level, really), your mental game at offline events is going to be a large determinant in overall skill. Snow absolutely possesses the mechanical skill/talent to be the best Protoss but he needs to get his confidence rolling (and it's been, but needs a championship), and confidence comes from results, not your raw talent when you're laddering at home. I used to say the same about Effort for a long time - I always considered him to be one of the most mechanically dominant players of all time (all races), but he kept flopping out of tournaments left and right until ASL6 came around and showed how good he could be at his best. I'm rooting for Snow to win this entire thing just for the storylines. With Snow at the top of his game, Rain still quite dominant, and Bisu back, it will be a great time for Starcraft. I am not sure if I am going to give you some big news or something, but EffOrt won an OSL final against Flash on his Godhood days/form (i.e., long before there was anything like ASL or even a prospect of that, in a time before SC2). So he had his confidence (he carried CJ for such a long time) and he was an A class player (S class in some days) of that time. EffOrt was always one of my favourite players but denying Flash that day (OSL) made me scream and shout a lot of awful things at him :´) IIRC Flash was 2-0 up and got reverse murdered by EffOrt | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
Yeah. One of the reasons a lot of zergs (including me) will argue FS is P favored in PvZ, these 1 gap walls. P can get a free lead in 1/7 if it's not 9p or less. IDK, maybe zergs should adjust with more 9p speeds if they spawn 11/5. How close is the cannon timing 12/12/12 vs overpool? | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 15 2019 06:09 fearthequeen wrote: @ EL Yeah. One of the reasons a lot of zergs (including me) will argue FS is P favored in PvZ, these 1 gap walls. P can get a free lead in 1/7 if it's not 9p or less. IDK, maybe zergs should adjust with more 9p speeds if they spawn 11/5. How close is the cannon timing 12/12/12 vs overpool? While FS might have a small edge for protoss in those 2 positions, I feel CB has a pretty big edge for zerg in all positions. It's much easier for zerg to obtain gas bases (4 base turtle) while toss struggles for 3rd gas. The 1 gap wall is pretty damn imba. I like it most when opening 9 gate expand. Having to kill the pylon later on to get dragoons out isn't even much of a setback either. IIRC protoss has to pull 1 probe to complete the wall vs cross positions and has to pull 2 probes vs non cross positions. If protoss isn't great at control maybe add another probe vs both positions. I honestly don't see many protoss players doing these walls as much as they used to. I'd say mix in 11 hatch, 12 hatch, 9 pool + extra drone and 9 pool speed every once in a while, especially if you're playing the same opponent multiple games. | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
On August 15 2019 01:10 QOGQOG wrote: I'm a big Snow fan, so a little biased, but I think Snow is stronger on the whole. While he doesn't have the titles, if it weren't for having to PvP Rain, he probably would have won ASL5 and KSL3--he eliminated the defending champions in both. PvP: Rain is way better than everyone else. Snow is arguably second best, but it's a wide gap. Advantage: Rain. PvZ: The last time Rain faced a high end zerg was him going 0-3 against Effort in ASL7. Snow recently won 3-1 against Soulkey in KSL3 (also beat him in ASL7). Effort is/was better and more consistent than Soulkey, but I don't know of any time where Rain actually defeated a great zerg. Probably the weakest matchup for both of them, though both have gotten better over time, especially Snow who used to always lose. Advantage: Snow. PvT: Snow is the only one to defeat Flash, but Rain hasn't ever faced him offline. They've both had some inconsistency: Snow has a habit of getting knocked out of qualifiers by low-tier terrans, while Rain has a more back-and-forth record vs, say, Last, while Snow consistently stomps. There's some rivalry between Rain and Sharp as well, whereas Snow won easily against Sharp the one time they played (KSL1). However, Snow is the stronger of the two because Snow has never lost a series to a terran in ASL or KSL. The only time I'm aware of that Snow was eliminated by a terran is when he got proxied by Last in a Bo1 in ASL7. Advantage: Snow. All that said, the Ro4 matchups will probably show us a lot: they're each essentially facing harder versions of the other's Ro8 matches. Yeah that analysis seems pretty apt. Rain is undoubtedly the best PvPer of the era. Snow seems to have the best PvT (I'd put rain at a close second). Both can have incredibly strong PvZ but are also inconsistent in it (which basically goes for mini as well, who actually might have the strongest pvz when he's not tilted, at least until Bisu gets back in shape). | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Let's see if he tries to do that again. And I agree with QOGQOG's assessment, especially considering PvZ. Snow has improved immensely. | ||
Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
On August 15 2019 20:18 TaardadAiel wrote: Last time Rain tried to outmindgame a Terran, he Let's see if he tries to do that again. And I agree with QOGQOG's assessment, especially considering PvZ. Snow has improved immensely. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
On August 15 2019 13:37 RowdierBob wrote: I think Flash will wreck Rain. Not sure if such a hot take but I’d be surprised if he took more than 1 game. Considering Flash will stop tournaments due to elevated body pain, I’ll vote for Rain. | ||
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
He simply doesn't have a weakness. Army movement. Macro. Micro. Tactics. Strategy. Experience. Short games, long games. He seems virtually cheese-proof. A lot of things went right for ZerO and Best v Flash this week in KCM. Didn't matter. It just didn't matter. Best friggin' 12 nexuses in a cross position. The best macro toss in the world with the optimal opening vs the best player in the world. It still didn't matter. Rain has the best chance of anyone. Not saying much, though. I predict 3-1 Flash. On August 17 2019 00:16 Alpha-NP- wrote: Looks like Action might not play next round because his appendix burst. Spoilered meme below. Awful news. Gotta feel for the guy. Flash will be winning this for his old KT Rolster buddy Action. | ||
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