On October 17 2018 03:06 Uldridge wrote: Why not put your stargate and fleet beacon at a location that won't be scanned? Like the 9 o clock for example.
Flash knows so much about this game that even if he doesn't scan it, he'll know what you're doing.
I think Mini's idea was the right one. Try to hit Flash in the early part of the game. His macro is not as precise as Best, Snow, even Stork or Shuttle.
However, he also thought that:
1. Going 12 Nexus against Flash is a good strategy.
2. Going Carriers on CB on barely two bases
Just bad, bad decision making. He still didn't have a chance but I would've hoped that it would be closer.
IMO if you want to be a good protoss you have to do one thing against Terran: reaver control at an insanely effective level.
If your reaver does enough damage, you macro up as fast as you can and try to outlive the Terran with Arbiter from mid-to-late game.
In the last few tournaments it seems to me that Protoss against Terran is barely an adjustment game. You just have to execute the 1-2 viable strats and accept that.
On October 16 2018 20:31 Yanokabo wrote: Embarrassing for mini dude looks like he was blindfolded kicked from a van in the middle of seoul stumbled into afreecatv studios and told he had to play in front of a crowd. He was not prepared. But can anyone be prepared to play vs the goat? “Doing what I practiced and I should be fine” turned into typical toss brainjam of 12 nex carrier dt allins. The only bright spot was the reaver goon push on cb. Toss need to get aggressive early with flash if they let him get comfortable it’s just impossible to stop him.
That or you actually try to play a long game as best / rain does and win quite a few if executed properly.. Flash always had a reputation of the best defensive player out there, so trying to catch him his pants down is probably the worst strategy to choose from.
Sure, if tosses really want to take flash out, they need to use the strengths of their race as flash uses all the strengths of Terran phenomenally. Scrap heap defense isn’t the strength of Protoss, so mini was playing it like a Tvt which is so wrong. Instead he should abuse psi storm stasis and recall which Terran has no answer for.
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.
This is more or les accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.
How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!
The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.
Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.
And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.
On October 17 2018 03:06 Uldridge wrote: Why not put your stargate and fleet beacon at a location that won't be scanned? Like the 9 o clock for example.
Flash would have found it sooner or later. I watch his stream and he knows what is normal or not normal when scanning the main and nat.
While this series was a big disappointment, I'm looking forward to Flash vs Shuttle.
Back when i was getting into watching StarCraft games, i watched Flash playing the 2009 GOM TV Intel Averatec Classic Season 3. While Flash pretty much steamrolled the entire tournament, losing only 1 map to Iris/Berserker in the final (earning him a score of 14-1 in the tournament), i remember his first map against Shuttle in the quarter-finals on Heartbreak Ridge. Basically, the entire map got mined out more or less before Shuttle finally threw in the towel. One of the absolutely best Macro games i have ever seen. Semi-final against JulyZerg was also really good, with Flash almost getting killed by an early ling-rush, only to stage a comeback against July.
Too bad the VODs of these games doesn't exist anymore But I'm really hyped for the semi between those two!
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.
This is more or les accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.
How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!
The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.
Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.
Dude are you forgetting the reaver blew up like 10 scvs on the bunker before missing that tank shot? Reaver scarabs have always been based on some luck and this is what makes Broodwar exciting to watch. The best players like Snow know how to abuse reavers even if they don't always connect.
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.
This is more or les accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.
How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!
The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.
Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.
And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.
Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth.
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.
This is more or les accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.
How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!
The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.
Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.
And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.
Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth.
One simply has to watch bisu’s Taekgyun goon control vs ssak on asl to see how goons can be effective and smart. Basically it’s all on you
Remember the title of the corresponding YouTube video (Goon's don't suck, you suck). Also, you obviously never tried to get a group of goliaths on high ground with a small choke.
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.
This is more or les accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.
How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!
The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.
Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.
And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.
Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth.
1. Goliaths. 2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not.
PS. Reaver scarab AI is also not entirely luck. If you drop the reaver right in the middle of SCV's - no bugs will occur. Its only when you want to snipe something from the distance/behind the minerals/buildings wall - thats a choice in a sense of big risk/big reward.
On October 17 2018 14:57 Lazare1969 wrote: Pretty much the only way to beat Flash in an offline tournament is if he has the flu and you're a PvT expert like Snow, or if you're FanTaSy.
Is it possible that the reaver didn't have any scarab yet for the tank shot?
Also, reavers are designed to be worse the longer the distance. Are people salty because the reaver didn't outright win Mini the game? With all the scv and marine kills, the attack looked incredibly successful.
i was wrong to doubt flash. 3-0 and dominated in a pretty convincing fashion
is it just me or does flash look so much stronger and more serious offline? online he's super goofy and it seems like his winrate is 50-55% at best. offline his winrate is far better and he looked visibly unimpressed with mini's play.. almost like he's sick of playing against newbies
maybe it's just because he posts so many games of himself losing on his youtube channel
It seems obvious that some of you guys have never tried to control goliaths through some narrow choke. I swear, it's like these things have a mind of their own haha. There's a reason that the BW carbot animation had them wondering all over the place and off cliffs too rofl. Anyways, Mini had a great lead in game 2. He just blew it by giving up those 2 reavers, and not playing the style that he is comfortable with.
EPT
But I'm really hyped for the semi between those two!
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/siKbQUH.jpg)
