[ASL6] Ro8 Flash vs Mini

On October 16 2018 15:19 nastzkoa wrote:
people are sleeping on mini. its gonna be a good match

On October 16 2018 17:28 TornadoSteve wrote:


Agreed. I wouldnt be surprised if Mini manage to advance actually. Flash obviously the favorite here, but i would say its closer to a 60-40.

On October 16 2018 18:13 chongu wrote:
4-0 flash winning over mini.

One game due to failed proxy gate, 2 games due to inefficient trades from reaver harrass into double shuttle, 1 game due to flash pushing out with scvs, marines and siege tanks around the 6 minute mark - akin to Last vs best ro24 on circuit

On October 16 2018 18:50 prosatan wrote:
Wooaaaa 2 pages and it hasn't even started !
Let's see some STARCRAFT !!!

On October 16 2018 18:29 Zaibakk wrote:


In the BO5 the chance is better for the best player. If we suppose for example that in a single game the chances are Mini 33% - Flash 66% (you should take those numbers from a statistical analysis of their last games ), in a BO3 the chances of passing the round will divent 25% - 75% and in a BO5 even less for Mini (i dont do the calculation right now but roughly 18%). This is, in the first place, the very reason they make a BOX instead of a single game: to maximize the probability that the best of the two players passes the round. Also the more is X the more it would be closer to 0%-100%, but of course it will take more time.

In the end, a 40% is too much optimistic for Mini, I would say roughly a 20% of Mini passing the round.

On October 16 2018 19:05 Motivate wrote:
predicted snow would beat flash, now i'm predicting mini will beat flash... flash looked shaky in the ro16

On October 16 2018 19:25 thezanursic wrote:
Could Mini have realistically held that, at this point I really don't know.

Everytime a protoss goes 12 nex, they lose

On October 16 2018 19:21 Miragee wrote:
Flash microed that perfectly but Mini also did a lot of anti micro...

//I mean, he didn't pull probes at first... He also ran around with his zealots instead of attacking, pulling them back grouped with his dragoons. He stopped dragoon shots. Like, he would have done better without any micro at all.

On October 16 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote:
lol flash looks borderline offended after that game

how did he know mini was going DTs?

On October 16 2018 19:30 Miragee wrote:


What do you mean by "know"? I mean I wouldn't put it past Flash that he knew because of some detail we missed but building a handful of turrets is good against every reasonable follow up, be it DTs or Reavers.

On October 16 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote:
lol flash looks borderline offended after that game

how did he know mini was going DTs?

On October 16 2018 19:33 chaosTheory_14cc wrote:
Flash looks bored lol

On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote:

Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away.

On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote:

Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away.

On October 16 2018 19:29 KamMoye wrote:
Are people just hoping for an upset? Mini is good but Flash has looked his usual dominant self.

On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote:

Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away.

On October 16 2018 19:49 Miragee wrote:
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. Mini defeated himself again.

On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote:
Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread.

I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage.

On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote:
Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread.

I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage.

On October 16 2018 19:51 nojok wrote:

It was small mistakes which flash punished very hard, it was not that bad from mini.

On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote:
Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread.

I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage.

On October 16 2018 19:52 Motivate wrote:

but he threw away both reavers

On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote:
Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread.

I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage.

On October 16 2018 19:56 nojok wrote:

Flash sniped the observer, moved his army right away and sieged up at the exact time and place mini was starting to set up his reaver push, it was the perfect moment of weakness.

On October 16 2018 19:35 Dante08 wrote:


Protoss usually go reavers or DTs after their 12 nexus gets busted. And yeah as Tastosis pointed out the delayed goon range was a giveaway. Mini also cleared mines with a zealot which is another giveaway.

On October 16 2018 19:59 NoS-Craig wrote:
BBS anyone?

On October 16 2018 20:00 Kaley wrote:

Would've been the ideal circumstance for Mini to go dark archon and try to mindcontrol the shuttle - the only way to get back into the game

Game 2 rap

Mini looking good after the scarabs didn't let him down
Blocking turd? nah, Flash was pushing `bout to turn this `round
Carriers, but Flash's push was what was shutting Mini down
Flash's sense was what was causing Mini to frown
..Fantasy gg timing
Nothing but the main mining
Time to leave
and try to believe
in Mini Hwaiting

On October 16 2018 20:11 NoS-Craig wrote:
Mini needs to pull something special for this game I think.

On October 16 2018 20:14 Antoonj wrote:
That was... disappointing.

On October 16 2018 20:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Can't wait to see ASL 7 maps

: )

On October 16 2018 20:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Can't wait to see ASL 7 maps

: )

On October 16 2018 20:19 geod wrote:
This is so awful to watch. Flash is killing Broodwar

On October 16 2018 20:17 De4ngus wrote:

the entire map will start covered in creep and pylons

On October 16 2018 20:29 prosatan wrote:

Best comment !!!

On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote:
By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one.
Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened.

On October 16 2018 20:38 Terra1 wrote:
Flash is just too strong in a lot of games, this one included. And Mini played like he was an amateur.
I hope we get to see Last vs Flash because I want Flash to win this time vs Last (referring to his loss vs Last in ASL 1)

What are the odds of FlaSh winning this time vs Last? Has FlaSh defeated Last a lot after that loss?

On October 16 2018 20:51 Freakling wrote:

This is more or less accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank.

On October 16 2018 20:31 Yanokabo wrote:
Embarrassing for mini dude looks like he was blindfolded kicked from a van in the middle of seoul stumbled into afreecatv studios and told he had to play in front of a crowd.
He was not prepared. But can anyone be prepared to play vs the goat? “Doing what I practiced and I should be fine” turned into typical toss brainjam of 12 nex carrier dt allins. The only bright spot was the reaver goon push on cb. Toss need to get aggressive early with flash if they let him get comfortable it’s just impossible to stop him.

On October 16 2018 21:53 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:


How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks!

On October 16 2018 23:37 Freakling wrote:


The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\
Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention):
+ Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.

On October 17 2018 00:16 iFU.pauline wrote:
Frankly I have never seen a protoss winning vs Flash doing 2 bases carrier.

On October 17 2018 00:28 O.P. wrote:

Is 2 base carrier even viable if terran scouts it? It feels very cheesy.

On October 16 2018 23:45 Freakling wrote:
ScmDraft obviously (that's what I created that image with).

On October 17 2018 00:16 iFU.pauline wrote:
Frankly I have never seen a protoss winning vs Flash doing 2 bases carrier.

On October 17 2018 00:28 O.P. wrote:

Is 2 base carrier even viable if terran scouts it? It feels very cheesy.

On October 17 2018 02:10 Brainojack wrote:
I laughed at the end of the circuit breaker match, just prior to the fantasy gg timing.
it looks like Flash glances over at Mini to see whats going on then quickly remembers the the cameras are on right in his face.

Youtube Jump

On October 16 2018 23:37 Freakling wrote:


The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\
Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention):
+ Show Spoiler [show image] +
I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes.

On October 16 2018 22:34 kogeT wrote:



That or you actually try to play a long game as best / rain does and win quite a few if executed properly.. Flash always had a reputation of the best defensive player out there, so trying to catch him his pants down is probably the worst strategy to choose from.

On October 17 2018 02:54 Aminus wrote:

Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago.
Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite.
Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.

On October 17 2018 03:06 Uldridge wrote:
Why not put your stargate and fleet beacon at a location that won't be scanned? Like the 9 o clock for example.

On October 17 2018 02:54 Aminus wrote:

Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago.
Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite.
Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed.

On October 17 2018 08:29 Freakling wrote:

And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip.
As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.

On October 17 2018 12:30 Malongo wrote:


Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth.

On October 17 2018 12:30 Malongo wrote:


Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth.

On October 17 2018 14:57 Lazare1969 wrote:
Pretty much the only way to beat Flash in an offline tournament is if he has the flu and you're a PvT expert like Snow, or if you're FanTaSy.

On October 16 2018 20:12 Kaley wrote:
"You can have a base for free
I'm gonna have game 3" ~ Tasteless

On October 17 2018 18:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:


1. Goliaths.
2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not.

PS. Reaver scarab AI is also not entirely luck. If you drop the reaver right in the middle of SCV's - no bugs will occur. Its only when you want to snipe something from the distance/behind the minerals/buildings wall - thats a choice in a sense of big risk/big reward.

On October 17 2018 08:29 Freakling wrote:And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip.
As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding.

On October 18 2018 01:04 Athinira wrote:

No they're not.

The thing about Dragoon pathfinding is that the size of the unit itself actually changes when they move, because the legs were designed to take up space as well, and they extend when the unit moves. This sometimes causesin the unit the come on top of themselves or other units, which creates the equivalent effect of a worker drill.

This was explained by a Starcraft programmer in an interview once.

On October 17 2018 18:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:


1. Goliaths.
2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not.

On October 18 2018 02:06 Aminus wrote:
What about the stop dragoon bug that appeared in 1.16 patch, is that thing fixed in remastered?

On October 18 2018 01:04 Athinira wrote:

No they're not.

The thing about Dragoon pathfinding is that the size of the unit itself actually changes when they move, because the legs were designed to take up space as well, and they extend when the unit moves. This sometimes causesin the unit the come on top of themselves or other units, which creates the equivalent effect of a worker drill.

This was explained by a Starcraft programmer in an interview once.

On October 18 2018 02:06 Aminus wrote:

Thats probably the reason why goons does that bug i talked about earlier and their inabillity to walk up ramps normally.

In the meantime we have tanks who can break the physics and can go into each others body no problem.

They appear to be the same size of a dragoon even they are not the same size actually...

Giving opinion that something needs to be fixed is what community should do, job of the developers is to fix that.

What about the stop dragoon bug that appeared in 1.16 patch, is that thing fixed in remastered?

On October 18 2018 05:39 EndingLife wrote:
I've had the most problems with dragoons out of any of the unit in the game. Not so much with pathing or them getting stacked on a ramp, but simply them stopping after firing. It happens to me pretty often when chasing a scouting scv.
I've noticed it happens more when you press attack and click on the scv, not so much when you press attack and click the ground near an scv. The dragoon simply stops and if you click attack somewhere else, it refuses to move.
I usually press stop and click directly on the ground to the right and left of the dragoon quickly to get it unstuck.

On October 17 2018 11:55 Athinira wrote:
While this series was a big disappointment, I'm looking forward to Flash vs Shuttle.

Back when i was getting into watching StarCraft games, i watched Flash playing the 2009 GOM TV Intel Averatec Classic Season 3. While Flash pretty much steamrolled the entire tournament, losing only 1 map to Iris/Berserker in the final (earning him a score of 14-1 in the tournament), i remember his first map against Shuttle in the quarter-finals on Heartbreak Ridge. Basically, the entire map got mined out more or less before Shuttle finally threw in the towel. One of the absolutely best Macro games i have ever seen. Semi-final against JulyZerg was also really good, with Flash almost getting killed by an early ling-rush, only to stage a comeback against July.

Too bad the VODs of these games doesn't exist anymore But I'm really hyped for the semi between those two!

On October 18 2018 13:43 BigFan wrote:
Depends on your definition of recently since that's over 9 years ago. Having said that, I'm sure someone still has them saved on a hard drive somewhere.

On October 19 2018 23:15 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Or Lurkers hitting your own Zealots lol.

On October 20 2018 02:44 Barneyk wrote:


Does Lurkers have ally-splash? I though they didn't...