[ASL6] Ro8 Flash vs Mini
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Rodya
546 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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nastzkoa
34 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
I still expect Flash to win, but it won't be a walk in the park. | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4253 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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keit
1584 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On October 16 2018 15:19 nastzkoa wrote: people are sleeping on mini. its gonna be a good match Agreed. I wouldnt be surprised if Mini manage to advance actually. Flash obviously the favorite here, but i would say its closer to a 60-40. | ||
rotta
5560 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2569 Posts
One game due to failed proxy gate, 2 games due to inefficient trades from reaver harrass into double shuttle, 1 game due to flash pushing out with scvs, marines and siege tanks around the 6 minute mark - akin to Last vs best ro24 on circuit | ||
Zaibakk
101 Posts
On October 16 2018 17:28 TornadoSteve wrote: Agreed. I wouldnt be surprised if Mini manage to advance actually. Flash obviously the favorite here, but i would say its closer to a 60-40. In the BO5 the chance is better for the best player. If we suppose for example that in a single game the chances are Mini 33% - Flash 66% (you should take those numbers from a statistical analysis of their last games ), in a BO3 the chances of passing the round will divent 25% - 75% and in a BO5 even less for Mini (i dont do the calculation right now but roughly 18%). This is, in the first place, the very reason they make a BOX instead of a single game: to maximize the probability that the best of the two players passes the round. Also the more is X the more it would be closer to 0%-100%, but of course it will take more time. In the end, a 40% is too much optimistic for Mini, I would say roughly a 20% of Mini passing the round. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
On October 16 2018 18:13 chongu wrote: 4-0 flash winning over mini. One game due to failed proxy gate, 2 games due to inefficient trades from reaver harrass into double shuttle, 1 game due to flash pushing out with scvs, marines and siege tanks around the 6 minute mark - akin to Last vs best ro24 on circuit Good thoughts bud but it’s bo5. I don’t think mini tries cheese in any game of this, but my gut says he maybe should think about that especially on autobahn where in base proxy gating or cannons is possible. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
Let's see some STARCRAFT !!! | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On October 16 2018 18:50 prosatan wrote: Wooaaaa 2 pages and it hasn't even started ! Let's see some STARCRAFT !!! Game not dead it seems | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On October 16 2018 18:29 Zaibakk wrote: In the BO5 the chance is better for the best player. If we suppose for example that in a single game the chances are Mini 33% - Flash 66% (you should take those numbers from a statistical analysis of their last games ), in a BO3 the chances of passing the round will divent 25% - 75% and in a BO5 even less for Mini (i dont do the calculation right now but roughly 18%). This is, in the first place, the very reason they make a BOX instead of a single game: to maximize the probability that the best of the two players passes the round. Also the more is X the more it would be closer to 0%-100%, but of course it will take more time. In the end, a 40% is too much optimistic for Mini, I would say roughly a 20% of Mini passing the round. Would bet fairly big if someone gave me those odds -.- | ||
gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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flashimba
225 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:05 Motivate wrote: predicted snow would beat flash, now i'm predicting mini will beat flash... flash looked shaky in the ro16 To be fair, snow was probably a slight favorite with those maps against Flash. This season, this is a different story :O I think whoever wins the first map has a 60% chance to win the series. Mini fighting against Mini =[ | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:08 flashimba wrote: YouTube link thanks flashimba | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
The sickest part is that he make it looks so easy Its scary | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
as a p player it hurts me a lot | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
lol | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
//I mean, he didn't pull probes at first... He also ran around with his zealots instead of attacking, pulling them back grouped with his dragoons. He stopped dragoon shots. Like, he would have done better without any micro at all. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
Everytime a protoss goes 12 nex, they lose | ||
reincremate
China2208 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
how did he know mini was going DTs? | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Sweet, onto game 2. Still needs to stay on top of things to defeat Mini though. | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:25 thezanursic wrote: Could Mini have realistically held that, at this point I really don't know. Everytime a protoss goes 12 nex, they lose I think he could have. | ||
Kaley
64 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:21 Miragee wrote: Flash microed that perfectly but Mini also did a lot of anti micro... //I mean, he didn't pull probes at first... He also ran around with his zealots instead of attacking, pulling them back grouped with his dragoons. He stopped dragoon shots. Like, he would have done better without any micro at all. To get zero kills with 2 zealots and probes against 4 marines and 7 scvs in an open area, the two players have to work together somehow :O( | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote: lol flash looks borderline offended after that game how did he know mini was going DTs? What do you mean by "know"? I mean I wouldn't put it past Flash that he knew because of some detail we missed but building a handful of turrets is good against every reasonable follow up, be it DTs or Reavers. | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
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BlackJack
United States9273 Posts
Well that call was pretty spot on | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:30 Miragee wrote: What do you mean by "know"? I mean I wouldn't put it past Flash that he knew because of some detail we missed but building a handful of turrets is good against every reasonable follow up, be it DTs or Reavers. he built his turrets at positions more for detection rather than to counter a reaver (e.g. at the choke of his natural) | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote: lol flash looks borderline offended after that game how did he know mini was going DTs? Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away. | ||
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:33 chaosTheory_14cc wrote: Flash looks bored lol I have to play two more games against this guy, seriously? | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote: Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away. This, and also the goons with no range trying to snipe mines around the bunker like their lifes depends on it. Also, the only way he can lose the game from there is an allin like dt or someone who snipe him from the crowd. | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote: Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away. Protoss usually go reavers or DTs after their 12 nexus gets busted. And yeah as Tastosis pointed out the delayed goon range was a giveaway. Mini also cleared mines with a zealot which is another giveaway. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:29 KamMoye wrote: Are people just hoping for an upset? Mini is good but Flash has looked his usual dominant self. Naturally, yes. Every tournament without Flash is a lot more exciting. Jokes aside, upsetting Flash usually means the getting the best games because something spectacular must happen to pull that off. Mini is not the guy to pull it off though. Crossing my fingers for at least one game that isn't boring... | ||
imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:32 nojok wrote: Tastosis said the delayed goon range was a give away. Yep. Delayed goon range, low number of dragoons, a minesweeping zealot = DTs The minesweeping zealot especially is a dead giveaway since you don't need to minesweep if you go reavers. | ||
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
What an excellent bait of the tank shot making it whiff, but then unload again and scarab doesn't come out T_T Such a love/hate unit | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
losing both reavers and the shuttle | ||
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
edit: whoops meant snow | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
mini is ahead ?!?!?!! flash has this easily | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:49 Miragee wrote: Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. Mini defeated himself again. It was small mistakes which flash punished very hard, it was not that bad from mini. | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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Last.Midnight
Australia871 Posts
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reincremate
China2208 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage. | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote: Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread. I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage. but he threw away both reavers | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1388 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote: Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread. I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage. No, Mini definitely choked that away. If you lose a shuttle with two reavers for two scarab shots that kills one goliath, you are going to be in serious trouble against any pro Terran. I mean, obviously Flash is gonna play Flash level. But Mini did the hard stuff marvelously and messes up the comparatively easy stuff... Well, it was entertaining. | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:51 nojok wrote: It was small mistakes which flash punished very hard, it was not that bad from mini. Losing 2 reavers like that is not a big mistake? Counter attacking with a force that was out on the map and could have flanked instead is not a big mistake? I mean, what could he have accomplished by counter-attacking with that force? Best case scenario would have been getting up the ramp and into production. But even then you don't do that much damage. You don't get up a ramp against Flash though... | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote: Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread. I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage. It was Mini's game to lose, not Flash's game to lose. Flash definitely knew the most likely way to lose, but it was in the hands of Mini to hand him the game, and he did. Most Terran players lose in that position against Mini, but that doesn't mean that Protoss wasn't very ahead. | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
Flash sniped the observer, moved his army right away and sieged up at the exact time and place mini was starting to set up his reaver push, it was the perfect moment of weakness. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:52 NoS-Craig wrote: Nah let's not give Flash any props for winning. Just blame it on mini being bad. Just another day in a Flash LR thread. I think Flash did great to come back after that early damage. That's because it's always in the hands of the person playing against Flash to not mess it up. Flash isn't going to mess up anyways. | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:56 nojok wrote: Flash sniped the observer, moved his army right away and sieged up at the exact time and place mini was starting to set up his reaver push, it was the perfect moment of weakness. Mini had a second observer... | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Poll: Recommend game 1? Yes (8) No (8) If you have time (6) 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 1? Poll: Recommend game 2? Yes (12) No (8) If you have time (3) 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 2? | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:35 Dante08 wrote: Protoss usually go reavers or DTs after their 12 nexus gets busted. And yeah as Tastosis pointed out the delayed goon range was a giveaway. Mini also cleared mines with a zealot which is another giveaway. Would've been the ideal circumstance for Mini to go dark archon and try to mindcontrol the dropship - the only way to get back into the game Game 2 rap Mini looking good after the scarabs didn't let him down Blocking turd? nah, Flash was pushing `bout to turn this `round Carriers, but Flash's push is going to town.. Flash's sense was what was causing Mini to frown ..Fantasy gg timing Nothing but the main mining Time to leave and try to believe in Mini Hwaiting | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 19:59 NoS-Craig wrote: BBS anyone? Yes please. | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:00 Kaley wrote: Would've been the ideal circumstance for Mini to go dark archon and try to mindcontrol the shuttle - the only way to get back into the game Game 2 rap Mini looking good after the scarabs didn't let him down Blocking turd? nah, Flash was pushing `bout to turn this `round Carriers, but Flash's push was what was shutting Mini down Flash's sense was what was causing Mini to frown ..Fantasy gg timing Nothing but the main mining Time to leave and try to believe in Mini Hwaiting Mindcontrol what ?!?!! | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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Kaley
64 Posts
I'm gonna have game 3" ~ Tasteless | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:11 NoS-Craig wrote: Mini needs to pull something special for this game I think. Like Flash going afk? | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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Antoonj
Sweden9 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Poll: Recommend game 3? No (12) If you have time (3) Yes (2) 17 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 3? | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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reincremate
China2208 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
: ) | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:14 Antoonj wrote: That was... disappointing. Kinda expected but still disappointing, yes. | ||
reincremate
China2208 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:14 TornadoSteve wrote: Can't wait to see ASL 7 maps : ) Neither Transistor nor Neo Transistor can beat Flash. | ||
Grettin
42379 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:14 TornadoSteve wrote: Can't wait to see ASL 7 maps : ) the entire map will start covered in creep and pylons | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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reincremate
China2208 Posts
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geod
Vietnam448 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Loved the games tonight. Flash should be able to beat shuttle and have an awesome series against either EffOrt or Last. | ||
Bonyth
Poland499 Posts
Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:19 geod wrote: This is so awful to watch. Flash is killing Broodwar KSL doesn't have Flash and in hindsight I think that might actually be a good thing, building up players so that they can eventually beat Flash in ASL | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:17 De4ngus wrote: the entire map will start covered in creep and pylons Best comment !!! | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
With the result that Flash will still win but we see no other Terran other than him. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
He was not prepared. But can anyone be prepared to play vs the goat? “Doing what I practiced and I should be fine” turned into typical toss brainjam of 12 nex carrier dt allins. The only bright spot was the reaver goon push on cb. Toss need to get aggressive early with flash if they let him get comfortable it’s just impossible to stop him. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
Well he did good in the wild card, didn't he [: will watch effort vs last though | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
I hope we get to see Last vs Flash because I want Flash to win this time vs Last (referring to his loss vs Last in ASL 1) What are the odds of FlaSh winning this time vs Last? Has FlaSh defeated Last a lot after that loss? | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:24 Bonyth wrote: By the way guys, not sure if you noticed but all that kept Mini from winning the game on Circuit Breakers was reaver bug. It wanted to give the tank on the ramp a melee shot, rather than a normal one. Another pimpest play from Mini there, he dropped the reaver for a split of second, so the tank actually shot once and the reaver didn't take the damage. That was super good. But yeah, then the bug happened. This is more or less accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:38 Terra1 wrote: Flash is just too strong in a lot of games, this one included. And Mini played like he was an amateur. I hope we get to see Last vs Flash because I want Flash to win this time vs Last (referring to his loss vs Last in ASL 1) What are the odds of FlaSh winning this time vs Last? Has FlaSh defeated Last a lot after that loss? I think flash verus shuttle will help us all know the answer to that question. Now is the time in the tournament where all the boys have been eliminated and only the men remain. Shuttle has a solid 60lb bodyweight advantage on mini and action is rather small as well, I have a theory that a lot of the reason flash wins often is his great physical fitness of his body. Shuttle is a heavyweight as far as pro gamers go so he could present a challenge to flash. Last isn’t a large guy but he’s quite cerebral and he’s been on top of his game recently. I’d say 75-25 odds for flash in a last / flash finals card. | ||
RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:51 Freakling wrote: This is more or less accurate. There is a region constellation at that ramp that reduces effective Reaver range to about 5 (instead of 8) for units placed as they were in that game. Would he have moved the Reaver down only a few pixels (towards the Supply Depot), it would have fired at the tank. How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks! | ||
kogeT
Poland2000 Posts
On October 16 2018 20:31 Yanokabo wrote: Embarrassing for mini dude looks like he was blindfolded kicked from a van in the middle of seoul stumbled into afreecatv studios and told he had to play in front of a crowd. He was not prepared. But can anyone be prepared to play vs the goat? “Doing what I practiced and I should be fine” turned into typical toss brainjam of 12 nex carrier dt allins. The only bright spot was the reaver goon push on cb. Toss need to get aggressive early with flash if they let him get comfortable it’s just impossible to stop him. That or you actually try to play a long game as best / rain does and win quite a few if executed properly.. Flash always had a reputation of the best defensive player out there, so trying to catch him his pants down is probably the worst strategy to choose from. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
Game 2 had a nice frontal reaver assault, but then he also loses the two reavers for a goliath later on. He had an obs, he saw the tanks, but still inched his reavers forward. I don't know if he didn't hold, or if it was purposeful on his part. That was the moment the game swung back in Flash's favour imo, and it seems like Flash thought the same as well. He did have a nice idea to try and get the goliaths when Flash pushed, but on close spawns, is there even enough time to get a large carrier count with 8 interceptors each? For me, it feels like this would've been wiser cross spawn. Game 3 was such dodgy decision making imo, especially towards the end of the game. He knew Flash's army was close, then he pulled his carriers all the way to the back, and allowed Flash to siege his main. Given, the game was over by then. He expands towards the terran, instead of away and doesn't try to take over the high ground either. These games were a huge letdown. It felt obvious to me that Mini did not want to go into a long macro game. I can understand it, but from my perspective, he needs to play his own style which Flash has trouble with, and force Flash to make mistakes or at least, face unorthodox strategies (Anyone remember Snow's reavers on Gladiator last ASL?). On top of that, his control was pretty bad. Maybe he was just nervous, but these games were not of his caliber. Also, I'm not a big fan of this reaver/carrier style. I haven't really crunched the numbers, but can you sustain that kind of production off 2 gas when you are also dumping money into goons too? | ||
YPang
United States4024 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3802 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 16 2018 21:53 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: How would one go about analysing this type of stuff? Thanks! The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] + I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes. | ||
rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On October 16 2018 23:37 Freakling wrote: The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] + I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes. Sick explanation man, but what I mean is which tools do you use/recommend if I wanted to do this type of analysis myself? Thanks a lot anyways | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1388 Posts
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On October 17 2018 00:16 iFU.pauline wrote: Frankly I have never seen a protoss winning vs Flash doing 2 bases carrier. Is 2 base carrier even viable if terran scouts it? It feels very cheesy. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On October 17 2018 00:28 O.P. wrote: Is 2 base carrier even viable if terran scouts it? It feels very cheesy. I personally want to say no since as a terran, you can scan it and find out what the protoss is up to, then strike right before the carrier count goes up. However, I don't play protoss so I'm not sure either. Can a protoss player give up more info on this? | ||
rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On October 16 2018 23:45 Freakling wrote: ScmDraft obviously (that's what I created that image with). Ah ok, I didn't know scmdraft did this sort of thing. | ||
plast1c
Germany99 Posts
On October 17 2018 00:16 iFU.pauline wrote: Frankly I have never seen a protoss winning vs Flash doing 2 bases carrier. Bisu won vs Flash with carriers in ASL 3; it was 3 base carrier though. | ||
Bonyth
Poland499 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 17 2018 00:28 O.P. wrote: Is 2 base carrier even viable if terran scouts it? It feels very cheesy. If the map is very favourable to Carriers (i.e. has cliffs and long ground paths, limiting Goliath mobility, like Katrina, Pathfinder – or Transistor) it seems to often work. | ||
Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
it looks like Flash glances over at Mini to see whats going on then quickly remembers the the cameras are on right in his face. Youtube Jump | ||
Barneyk
Sweden297 Posts
And its to bad that the ASL youtube timestamp kinda spoils it. :/ | ||
prosatan
Romania7062 Posts
On October 17 2018 02:10 Brainojack wrote: I laughed at the end of the circuit breaker match, just prior to the fantasy gg timing. it looks like Flash glances over at Mini to see whats going on then quickly remembers the the cameras are on right in his face. Youtube Jump When I watch it now I feel so sad for Mini | ||
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria386 Posts
And for game 1, I wonder, how is 12 nex still a thing, I have yet to see a decent terran lose to it in a map where the 2nd is not accessible from a ramp. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
As for 12 nex, I also wonder as well. | ||
Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
On October 16 2018 23:37 Freakling wrote: The root of the problem is that Scarabs are units that can only travel over passable ground. So to ensure that things like cliffs and other major terrain obstacles do not cause Reavers to shoot out Scarabs that will just run around erratically and then dud out (because there is no or only a very indirect path between the Reaver and the target) the Reaver attack is coded to use pathfinding distance instead of simple radial distance in its attack range check. The algorithm that determines ground traveling distance is just a very rough heuristic, though. Across multiple regions it seems to use pathfinding node-to-node distance instead of actual unit positions or linear distances, so if the nodes of semi-adjacent regions (regions in close proximity, but separated from each other by at least one interjacent region/node) are spaced out too far the engine considers that as a long travel distance. This is how far I understand it so far. For the exact algorithmic details I guess I'll have to delve into the OpenBW code at some point :\ Example for the instance that caused the bug in this particular game (I think what Bonyth is referring to is the scene at about 0:51:30, at least that's what caught my attention): + Show Spoiler [show image] + I marked the approximate unit positions and highlighted the relevant region nodes. Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed. | ||
Uldridge
Belgium4253 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On October 17 2018 03:06 Uldridge wrote: Why not put your stargate and fleet beacon at a location that won't be scanned? Like the 9 o clock for example. Flash knows so much about this game that even if he doesn't scan it, he'll know what you're doing. | ||
oxKnu
1128 Posts
However, he also thought that: 1. Going 12 Nexus against Flash is a good strategy. 2. Going Carriers on CB on barely two bases Just bad, bad decision making. He still didn't have a chance but I would've hoped that it would be closer. IMO if you want to be a good protoss you have to do one thing against Terran: reaver control at an insanely effective level. If your reaver does enough damage, you macro up as fast as you can and try to outlive the Terran with Arbiter from mid-to-late game. In the last few tournaments it seems to me that Protoss against Terran is barely an adjustment game. You just have to execute the 1-2 viable strats and accept that. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
On October 16 2018 22:34 kogeT wrote: That or you actually try to play a long game as best / rain does and win quite a few if executed properly.. Flash always had a reputation of the best defensive player out there, so trying to catch him his pants down is probably the worst strategy to choose from. Sure, if tosses really want to take flash out, they need to use the strengths of their race as flash uses all the strengths of Terran phenomenally. Scrap heap defense isn’t the strength of Protoss, so mini was playing it like a Tvt which is so wrong. Instead he should abuse psi storm stasis and recall which Terran has no answer for. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 17 2018 02:54 Aminus wrote: Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed. And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding. | ||
Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On October 17 2018 03:06 Uldridge wrote: Why not put your stargate and fleet beacon at a location that won't be scanned? Like the 9 o clock for example. Flash would have found it sooner or later. I watch his stream and he knows what is normal or not normal when scanning the main and nat. | ||
Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
Back when i was getting into watching StarCraft games, i watched Flash playing the 2009 GOM TV Intel Averatec Classic Season 3. While Flash pretty much steamrolled the entire tournament, losing only 1 map to Iris/Berserker in the final (earning him a score of 14-1 in the tournament), i remember his first map against Shuttle in the quarter-finals on Heartbreak Ridge. Basically, the entire map got mined out more or less before Shuttle finally threw in the towel. One of the absolutely best Macro games i have ever seen. Semi-final against JulyZerg was also really good, with Flash almost getting killed by an early ling-rush, only to stage a comeback against July. Too bad the VODs of these games doesn't exist anymore But I'm really hyped for the semi between those two! | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On October 17 2018 02:54 Aminus wrote: Thats a thread that shouldve been discussed way more than it is, not only that but changes shouldve been made long time ago. Ive lost not one game because of the broken ai of the reaver, reaver bugs even on flat ground trying to melee attack... When we are talking about profesional scene and sports, its unacceptable spoiled game design causing bugs to be a win or lose factor in competition, it should be fixed. Its unfair that these flaws harms one race and spare others. No other race is affected more by bugs, than the Protoss does and its not like the Protoss race is the most dominant or has more titles in tournament than zerg or terran, its quite the opposite. Reaver AI needs to be fixed as much as dragoon ai. Ive seen jangbi lose game on stream, simply because his dragoons dont follow his commands and cant get up a ramp, he did his best to save them, but tank fire has no mercy, then he had to gg... Or the bug when you click dragoons to go to certain spot on an flat ground and just as they reach the destination, half of them starts going in every possible direction, one of them get a shot from a tank then all the group of goons going into tank fire. Its a common thing seen hundreds and hundreds of times in all situations and games. And player have to watch out if the goons going to bug or not rather than doing his macro or whatever he needs to do at that time. I dont know if these questions were risen by the korean progamers, but the game from today was serious alarm that something needs to be fixed. Dude are you forgetting the reaver blew up like 10 scvs on the bunker before missing that tank shot? Reaver scarabs have always been based on some luck and this is what makes Broodwar exciting to watch. The best players like Snow know how to abuse reavers even if they don't always connect. | ||
Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
On October 17 2018 08:29 Freakling wrote: And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding. Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth. | ||
Shinokuki
United States849 Posts
On October 17 2018 12:30 Malongo wrote: Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth. One simply has to watch bisu’s Taekgyun goon control vs ssak on asl to see how goons can be effective and smart. Basically it’s all on you | ||
asel
Germany1597 Posts
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3958 Posts
On October 17 2018 12:30 Malongo wrote: Dragoons have by far the worst combination of size, attack animation and proyectile damage. Pathfinding *may* be the same, but no other unit (mass produced or not) has it that hard to perform. Thats no myth. 1. Goliaths. 2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not. PS. Reaver scarab AI is also not entirely luck. If you drop the reaver right in the middle of SCV's - no bugs will occur. Its only when you want to snipe something from the distance/behind the minerals/buildings wall - thats a choice in a sense of big risk/big reward. On October 17 2018 14:57 Lazare1969 wrote: Pretty much the only way to beat Flash in an offline tournament is if he has the flu and you're a PvT expert like Snow, or if you're FanTaSy. or your map pool kinda sucks for terran. | ||
O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
Also, reavers are designed to be worse the longer the distance. Are people salty because the reaver didn't outright win Mini the game? With all the scv and marine kills, the attack looked incredibly successful. | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
is it just me or does flash look so much stronger and more serious offline? online he's super goofy and it seems like his winrate is 50-55% at best. offline his winrate is far better and he looked visibly unimpressed with mini's play.. almost like he's sick of playing against newbies maybe it's just because he posts so many games of himself losing on his youtube channel | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Cut him some slack guys On October 16 2018 20:12 Kaley wrote: "You can have a base for free I'm gonna have game 3" ~ Tasteless hahahaha Tasteless is the man | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 17 2018 18:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: The long attack cooldown and slow pre-attack animation (and lack of truning rate) are actually what make Dragoons so much better microable than for example Goliaths (which you cannot really micro at all in ground to ground engagements due to their long attack animation coupled with a high attack rate).1. Goliaths. 2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not. PS. Reaver scarab AI is also not entirely luck. If you drop the reaver right in the middle of SCV's - no bugs will occur. Its only when you want to snipe something from the distance/behind the minerals/buildings wall - thats a choice in a sense of big risk/big reward. Cases exist where Reaver attack range is reduced to one in a certain direction. So viable targets really need to be right next to the Reaver. | ||
Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
On October 17 2018 08:29 Freakling wrote:And this is where you are just wrong. "Retarded Dragoons" is but a myth. Pathfinding is exactly the same for all units - they are all on a bad trip. As for Reaver jams: Demanding a change is cheap and simple. Actually fixing the issue probably not. What would be your solution? You'd have to implement a better heuristic for ground distance calculations, but only specifically for Scarabs, because otherwise you'd completely change all pathfinding. No they're not. The thing about Dragoon pathfinding is that the size of the unit itself actually changes when they move, because the legs were designed to take up space as well, and they extend when the unit moves. This sometimes causesin the unit the come on top of themselves or other units, which creates the equivalent effect of a worker drill. This was explained by a Starcraft programmer in an interview once. | ||
Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
On October 18 2018 01:04 Athinira wrote: No they're not. The thing about Dragoon pathfinding is that the size of the unit itself actually changes when they move, because the legs were designed to take up space as well, and they extend when the unit moves. This sometimes causesin the unit the come on top of themselves or other units, which creates the equivalent effect of a worker drill. This was explained by a Starcraft programmer in an interview once. Thats probably the reason why goons does that bug i talked about earlier and their inabillity to walk up ramps normally. In the meantime we have tanks who can break the physics and can go into each others body no problem. They appear to be the same size of a dragoon even they are not the same size actually... Giving opinion that something needs to be fixed is what community should do, job of the developers is to fix that. What about the stop dragoon bug that appeared in 1.16 patch, is that thing fixed in remastered? On October 17 2018 18:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: 1. Goliaths. 2. BW is designed for you to fix "bad AI". Basically if you control every dragoon individually, you'll get the job done. Now its up to you if you can actually do that or not. Controling every dragoon indivivtually sounds ridicilous to me, struggling to fight with goon AI while my opponent execute attack and make a macro round or drop me in the mineral line. If game is played on normal or fast speed yeah maybe its worth doing it. | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6631 Posts
On October 18 2018 02:06 Aminus wrote: What about the stop dragoon bug that appeared in 1.16 patch, is that thing fixed in remastered? I think that bug has been around from the beginning. But no, unfortunately it hasn't yet been resolved in remastered. | ||
outscar
2788 Posts
Unimpressed FlaSh picture is gold btw. | ||
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1702 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On October 18 2018 01:04 Athinira wrote: Source? Or show me one instance where Dragoons stack just by themselves (hint: they don't). I am sure you misunderstood something (and I mean: absolutely, 100% sure!).No they're not. The thing about Dragoon pathfinding is that the size of the unit itself actually changes when they move, because the legs were designed to take up space as well, and they extend when the unit moves. This sometimes causesin the unit the come on top of themselves or other units, which creates the equivalent effect of a worker drill. This was explained by a Starcraft programmer in an interview once. Seriously, I actually figured out the probable original source of this particular bullshit speculation some time ago. Day9 asserted it in one of his podcasts and it became very prominent for some reason (my personal best guess is that people actually want to believe it because Dragoons, or Goliaths for that matter, "look" retarded due to their walking animations, so they are inclined to assume there is some kind of "physical reality" to what is actually just a sprite animation). For the engine the Dragoon is but a 32x32-pixel-sized collision box moving at a constant speed, nothing more. On October 18 2018 02:06 Aminus wrote: Are you talking about vortices now (also a general, not a Dragoon-specific, bug!) or just the usual bumper cars (again: all units do that, Dragoons can sometimes wander off quicker because they have no turn animation and therefore no delay before changing directions)Thats probably the reason why goons does that bug i talked about earlier and their inabillity to walk up ramps normally. In the meantime we have tanks who can break the physics and can go into each others body no problem. Your misunderstanding seems to stem from the fact that you seem to ascribe some sort of physical reality to mere sprites.They appear to be the same size of a dragoon even they are not the same size actually... For the Engine Dragoons and Tanks actually have exactly the same collision size…Giving opinion that something needs to be fixed is what community should do, job of the developers is to fix that. What exactly? What about the stop dragoon bug that appeared in 1.16 patch, is that thing fixed in remastered? This is also not a Dragoon specific bug, so you should better call it "attack freeze bug". It's only most likely to occur with Dragoons because they have the longest pre-attack animation of all units.They said they'd fix that with the first release of RM, but then apparently retracted, probably because the "fix" actually did not address the problem or had some other unwanted consequences for gameplay. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
I've noticed it happens more when you press attack and click on the scv, not so much when you press attack and click the ground near an scv. The dragoon simply stops and if you click attack somewhere else, it refuses to move. I usually press stop and click directly on the ground to the right and left of the dragoon quickly to get it unstuck. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On October 18 2018 05:39 EndingLife wrote: I've had the most problems with dragoons out of any of the unit in the game. Not so much with pathing or them getting stacked on a ramp, but simply them stopping after firing. It happens to me pretty often when chasing a scouting scv. I've noticed it happens more when you press attack and click on the scv, not so much when you press attack and click the ground near an scv. The dragoon simply stops and if you click attack somewhere else, it refuses to move. I usually press stop and click directly on the ground to the right and left of the dragoon quickly to get it unstuck. I've this happen with marines before for similar reasons. Thankfully, it's a quick fix ^^ | ||
machinus
United States284 Posts
On October 17 2018 11:55 Athinira wrote: While this series was a big disappointment, I'm looking forward to Flash vs Shuttle. Back when i was getting into watching StarCraft games, i watched Flash playing the 2009 GOM TV Intel Averatec Classic Season 3. While Flash pretty much steamrolled the entire tournament, losing only 1 map to Iris/Berserker in the final (earning him a score of 14-1 in the tournament), i remember his first map against Shuttle in the quarter-finals on Heartbreak Ridge. Basically, the entire map got mined out more or less before Shuttle finally threw in the towel. One of the absolutely best Macro games i have ever seen. Semi-final against JulyZerg was also really good, with Flash almost getting killed by an early ling-rush, only to stage a comeback against July. Too bad the VODs of these games doesn't exist anymore But I'm really hyped for the semi between those two! Really? We have lost vods from as recently as 2009? No one has the Averatec games? | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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machinus
United States284 Posts
On October 18 2018 13:43 BigFan wrote: Depends on your definition of recently since that's over 9 years ago. Having said that, I'm sure someone still has them saved on a hard drive somewhere. I would consider 2009 to be recent, of course. I have to accept that early BW games will be lost, like those from pre-Boxer era. But 2009? Those were broadcast everywhere and I'm sure re-cast on Youtube in English. How could we lose them? | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
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MattRz
Chile1679 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
They have to merge to become the Protoss/Zerg Hybrid race lol. It is the only hope of beating tesagi lol. Just think about it lol: Dragoons, Psi Storms, DTs, Reavers, Speed Shuttles, Carrier tech, Stasis and Recall Combined with Lurker expand, lategame Ultralisks, Dark Swarm, Plague, Doom Drops, Muta harass, and lategame Broodlings *Evil Grin | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden297 Posts
On October 19 2018 23:15 Alpha-NP- wrote: Or Lurkers hitting your own Zealots lol. Does Lurkers have ally-splash? I though they didn't... | ||
sM.Zik
Canada2542 Posts
On October 20 2018 02:44 Barneyk wrote: Does Lurkers have ally-splash? I though they didn't... Lurkers do have allied players splash, but no splash to your own others units. | ||
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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