[ASL6] Ro8 EffOrt vs Rain

On October 09 2018 19:05 Burned Toast wrote:
Why no link to the YT channel in the OP?

URL : ENGLISH YOUTUBE

On October 09 2018 19:25 BlackJack wrote:
effort does mass hydra + muta to snipe HT very well. I imagine he will go for that a bit in this series

On October 09 2018 19:32 Miragee wrote:


He just does mass hydra and wins, lol. What am I watching? Just macro up and go? What was Rain thinking? That was so unbelievably one-sided.

On October 09 2018 19:38 Ota Solgryn wrote:


He must have messed up some macro cycles. With those upgrades and with 15 extra zealots in the big fight ( he had 1900 minerals floating) would have been huge. Now he barely survived that due to storm.

On October 09 2018 19:40 BigFan wrote:
How was the first game? Tuned in to see a large hydra bust lol. Effort looking good from the bits I saw.

On October 09 2018 19:38 Ota Solgryn wrote:


He must have messed up some macro cycles. With those upgrades and with 15 extra zealots in the big fight ( he had 1900 minerals floating) would have been huge. Now he barely survived that due to storm.

On October 09 2018 19:50 NoS-Craig wrote:
Seen this happen like 100 times. I thought EffOrt would see it coming.

On October 09 2018 19:42 Miragee wrote:


He barely survived? He didn't survive. And he only got that far because of those storms against no micro that killed like 3 control groups of hydras. He would have barely survived with that extra round of zealots but that's it.

On October 09 2018 19:57 Ota Solgryn wrote:


Just rewatched and yes he did survive.
The first big attack he survives farily well.
At the second big attack Rain also survives the push at his min only, but barely, even though he has 1600 minerals banked. With those as slots either coming running as reinforcements or even incorperated he would have been able to get his froth up probably.

On October 09 2018 19:59 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Some poeple here have a strange concept dont they.

Why are the pros so good? Because they have high apm, hatcherys on hotkeys. So OBVIOUSLY they dont go to the hatches all the time and click larvas.

They just do it all on the keys and focus on their units and the map ect..

You can hardly blame someone losing drones to a DT. It is one of the easiest things to happen.

Strange people.

On October 09 2018 20:02 nojok wrote:

What's up with the trend of overrreacting when forumers point out pros' mistakes? It was a mistake to not spot it earlier, even if it's effectively hard to spot.

On October 09 2018 20:03 CakeSauc3 wrote:

DTs that are within detecting range of an Overlord don't show up on the minimap?

On October 09 2018 19:59 nojok wrote:

He lost all the templars during the first attack, 15 more zealots would not have changed the fact he had no storm left, it would have delayed the end for 30 seconds at best.

On October 09 2018 19:57 Ota Solgryn wrote:


Just rewatched and yes he did survive.
The first big attack he survives farily well.
At the second big attack Rain also survives the push at his min only, but barely, even though he has 1600 minerals banked. With those as slots either coming running as reinforcements or even incorperated he would have been able to get his froth up probably.

On October 09 2018 20:05 MaGic~PhiL wrote:



Where is the overreaction? Did I insult anyone?

My point is: Missing a DT killing Drones happens easily. To spot it is very hard. It depens a lot on luck.

So someone treating it as if it was a "huge blunder" ist rubbish.

Where is the overreaction?

ô.Ô

On October 09 2018 20:14 nojok wrote:

"Why are the pros so good? etc"

It happens every LR, someone tells us the pros are so good and the game losing mistake was actually a very small mistake etc

Don't worry you're not virulent like some can be. It's just I don't understand the reasonning behind this.

On October 09 2018 19:59 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Some poeple here have a strange concept dont they.

Why are the pros so good? Because they have high apm, hatcherys on hotkeys. So OBVIOUSLY they dont go to the hatches all the time and click larvas.

They just do it all on the keys and focus on their units and the map ect..

You can hardly blame someone losing drones to a DT. It is one of the easiest things to happen.

Strange people.

On October 09 2018 20:42 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I think Rain's trash talk before the series about EffOrt's decision making is coming back to bite him. Rain's made some really questionable decisions this game.

On October 09 2018 20:42 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I think Rain's trash talk before the series about EffOrt's decision making is coming back to bite him. Rain's made some really questionable decisions this game.

On October 09 2018 20:45 M2 wrote:
cant understand why they never make dark archons, you could try to foresee the mutas, doesnt look very hard to feel the switch or you could at least make 1 after you see them

On October 09 2018 21:24 Uldridge wrote:
Are they as expensive as the need to remake HT's over and over again because they keep getting sniped?

On October 09 2018 21:04 Miragee wrote:
Just throw that in here about Dark Archons: They are expensive and Maelstrom is very hard to hit. Corsairs are the better answer in most cases imho.

On October 09 2018 22:46 asel wrote:
Actually, it isn't, you can just click on the muta flock. Also, it's "only" a 300 gas investments that completely shuts down muta harassment. On the other hand, it's basically useless if zerg relies only on hydras and skips mutalisks.

On October 09 2018 23:32 BLinD-RawR wrote:


well I think its a joke, but at least someone could upload to vimeo instead lol, not that today needs it since there was no copywrite music.

On October 10 2018 04:14 BigFan wrote:
EffOrt will have to play amazingly to beat Last and as for Action, Shuttle is no slouch and whoever wins from the Flash/Mini is going to be tough. Zerg fans better hold out hope that either EffOrt beats Last or Action somehow makes it happen otherwise no Zerg champion this season!

On October 10 2018 07:08 ShowTheLights wrote:
What the FUCK is Protoss supposed to do better on Game 1 Circuit Breakers or Autobahn game 3? I'm so fucking close to quitting watching SC1 with how SHITTY PvZ is. Hydra busts/fake hydra busts into 9 hatch is so fucking stupid

Please fucking tell me bc its been like this for over 2 years

On October 10 2018 07:08 ShowTheLights wrote:
What the FUCK is Protoss supposed to do better on Game 1 Circuit Breakers or Autobahn game 3? I'm so fucking close to quitting watching SC1 with how SHITTY PvZ is. Hydra busts/fake hydra busts into 9 hatch is so fucking stupid

Please fucking tell me bc its been like this for over 2 years

On October 10 2018 09:24 Magic Powers wrote:


What Bonyth said about the Autobahn map is true. It has a big design flaw with the destructibles being too low on HP.
About Circuit Breaker: Rain played an unusual two forge strategy that was perfectly countered by Effort, and Rain's macro was sloppy. There's not much else to be said about that game, it just didn't work out.
Also, Effort is a beast in ZvP. People have to play incredibly well to beat him and to me it didn't look like Rain was up to par.

I'd say ZvP is still perfectly playable, no reason to worry.

On October 10 2018 16:14 ShowTheLights wrote:
I can't agree with any of this. You all say shit like "Rain's POOR DECISION MAKING", but you forgot the biggest point of this fucking imbalance: Protoss is in the COMPLETE DARK. Rain did SO much to get the vital intel with hidden probes, Zealot scouts, VERY thorough Corsair scouts, and still either dies to a hydra bust OR Zerg can just fake hydra bust and expand to 9 hatches.

You say POOR DECISION MAKING with vision of the whole map. The most broken part about this is that Protoss has to guess between hydra bust or fake hydra bust, and EVEN IF its a FAKE early Hydra bust, you can pump enough Hydras out to 1) force Protoss into a very defense position and 2) still increase your eco.

On October 10 2018 16:14 ShowTheLights wrote:
I can't agree with any of this. You all say shit like "Rain's POOR DECISION MAKING", but you forgot the biggest point of this fucking imbalance: Protoss is in the COMPLETE DARK. Rain did SO much to get the vital intel with hidden probes, Zealot scouts, VERY thorough Corsair scouts, and still either dies to a hydra bust OR Zerg can just fake hydra bust and expand to 9 hatches.

You say POOR DECISION MAKING with vision of the whole map. The most broken part about this is that Protoss has to guess between hydra bust or fake hydra bust, and EVEN IF its a FAKE early Hydra bust, you can pump enough Hydras out to 1) force Protoss into a very defense position and 2) still increase your eco.

A: I get this question a lot. Um... I think it is half-half. I play like Bisu in PvZ and like Stork in PvT.

On September 13 2018 02:32 JieXian wrote:


Wow this guy slyly bragging haha

On October 10 2018 13:42 BigFan wrote:
^ Pretty much. EffOrt played really well overall. Rain lost to his macro and he came really close to defending on Autobahn as well. I don't think Rain is the best example of a great PvZer. Before anyone talks about him being hero (I know I did in my preview), the maps were favoured towards protoss to a certain degree. I'm talking in regards to maps like Sparkle etc...

On that note, I got the prediction right :D

This matchup will prove to be very exciting as we see Rain, the ASL5 champion and one of the Top 3 protoss players atm go up against EffOrt, a scrappy Zerg

Considering everything, and the fact that EffOrt is the best ZvPer at the moment, I predict him to advance to the semifinals, 3-1.

On October 10 2018 21:05 Muff2n wrote:
My 2 cents on the last game and muta snipes:

Rain's reaction was fine. Near to the end he was mined out but with lots of gas. He chose to just build extra HT instead of Dark Archon or Corsairs, which require more minerals. The fight before the end he had 8 HT, and 5 (250/750) were sniped. I think this is a fair trade considering he killed ~6 mutas (600/600). The 3 remaining would have kept him safe from the hydras.

Where he was caught out was that he tried to push with the remaining 3, but effort had made more mutas, sniped those 3 and then gg. I think he was not expecting Effort to have rebuilt the muta flock so quickly, and thought that he had a chance at a push with guaranteed 3 HT (because he had just killed most of the muta flock).
What I think he should have done was to regroup after the muta pickoff, and collect the next newly built 5 HT. Then he would have been fine. But this is with hindsight and that a new muta flock was ready so soon.

On October 10 2018 07:39 M2 wrote:

Honestly not much. I think this is the main reason that makes PvZ more unfair in comparison with all other matches. There is this fairly big phase in the beginning where zergs can do many things offensively, without being in danger, while protosses can only static defend, many times blindly and when zergs' shit works, it kills the protoss, but when it does not work, the game continue on 50/50 basis (minus the cases where zergs over-committed for no reason, but this is still due to the zerg's actions, not related to what protoss is doing). However, I dont see how this can be changed. In all other match ups each race has a unit or simple combo that can react to anything the opponent sends based on micro. In TvP, protoss has dragoons that can hold anything early game, terran has tanks/vultures to hold the protoss. In TvZ terran has this universal M&M composition that can react to anything the zerg sends and zerg has mutas that can deal with every terran thing based on micro, however, in PvZ for protoss this unit is the cannon, protoss race just does not have a unit that can face all things that zergs can send, protoss has to have specific answer for each zerg strat and if it doesnt, protoss just dies. Actually the psi storm is that thing, but it comes too slow.

On October 11 2018 07:13 Elroi wrote:

Well this is exactly what zvt feels like.

On October 10 2018 21:05 Muff2n wrote:
My 2 cents on the last game and muta snipes:

Rain's reaction was fine. Near to the end he was mined out but with lots of gas. He chose to just build extra HT instead of Dark Archon or Corsairs, which require more minerals. The fight before the end he had 8 HT, and 5 (250/750) were sniped. I think this is a fair trade considering he killed ~6 mutas (600/600). The 3 remaining would have kept him safe from the hydras.

On October 10 2018 21:53 JieXian wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/537192-rain-interview-best-has-the-best-body

hahahahahahahahahaha

Rain: "I play like Bisu in PvZ"
Effort: "Bitch, PlZ"

On October 10 2018 09:42 BisuDagger wrote:
Rain's elimination in KSL and now here does major damage to his credibility. It helps solidify that protoss maps and the PvP match really helped him get his ASL victory. I'm not arguing Rain isn't good or wasn't deserving his championship, but he is showing that he isn't quite the whole package we were all hoping he was.

On October 11 2018 14:20 darktreb wrote:
Effort vs Flash rematch it's time.

On October 11 2018 16:34 kogeT wrote:


Except the fact that it's probably going to be a set of 7-8 minute games with a lot of zergling / muta allins.

On October 11 2018 09:38 Li_Xin wrote:


Rain does play like Bisu in PvZ... He's just not nearly as good at it.

On October 11 2018 17:32 JieXian wrote:


Hahahaha, you're technically right. In that case I too play PvZ like Bisu, TvZ like Flash, TvT like Flash and ZvZ like kespa-JD.

... but I too, am not nearly as good at them, and get owned by C rank players.

On October 11 2018 17:35 reincremate wrote:

I'm the Flash of D- players. Outmacroing everyone who isn't D or higher.

On October 11 2018 16:34 kogeT wrote:


Except the fact that it's probably going to be a set of 7-8 minute games with a lot of zergling / muta allins.

On October 11 2018 17:32 JieXian wrote:


Hahahaha, you're technically right. In that case I too play PvZ like Bisu, TvZ like Flash, TvT like Flash and ZvZ like kespa-JD.

... but I too, am not nearly as good at them, and get owned by C rank players.

On October 11 2018 22:12 Li_Xin wrote:


What Rain meant was that he tries to copy Bisu's distinct style in PvZ, and Stork's style in PvT. He doesn't have the skills of Bisu in PvZ, but it's the same style of play.

How do you seriously not understand this?

On October 11 2018 16:34 kogeT wrote:


Except the fact that it's probably going to be a set of 7-8 minute games with a lot of zergling / muta allins.

On October 12 2018 00:03 JieXian wrote:


Yes I understand your point about what Rain meant and I agree. I was just joking because I couldn't resist myself after reading your reply :D

Shake hands bro?

On October 12 2018 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:


Let's back up a second. I honesty don't see where Rain copies Bisu's style at all. I feel like Rain tries to play too passive, uses very different unit compositions, and chooses different upgrade paths then Bisu typically would.

On October 12 2018 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:


Let's back up a second. I honesty don't see where Rain copies Bisu's style at all. I feel like Rain tries to play too passive, uses very different unit compositions, and chooses different upgrade paths then Bisu typically would.

On October 12 2018 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:


Let's back up a second. I honesty don't see where Rain copies Bisu's style at all. I feel like Rain tries to play too passive, uses very different unit compositions, and chooses different upgrade paths then Bisu typically would.

On October 12 2018 13:11 kidcrash wrote:
Anyone else think that maelstrom should be reconsidered against muta snipes? Seemed like rain was in desperate need for an answer vs them in game 4.

On October 13 2018 05:23 Alpha-NP- wrote:
I think Shuttle will defeat Action in his match. Shuttle always delivers unexpectedly.

On October 13 2018 06:16 sM.Zik wrote:


Shuttle has a better PvZ than Rain, imo. Inconsistent though and Action is also underated. This is the underated series of the tournament imo.

On October 14 2018 05:30 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Can someone please tell me about Shuttle’s PvZ style? And his PvT style? This guys seems very likeable to me. Is he as good with Reavers as Snow is? Thanks. Trying to prepare for the next round of Action vs Shuttle.

That calculation has nothing to do with how a real game plays out.

3 remaining templars is not enough at that point of the game. Especially not since some of them wasted their storms on the mutas.

On October 14 2018 09:39 Letmelose wrote:


Shuttle is in possession of the very best late game protoss-versus-zerg due to his painstaking detail to having the correct composition, having good upgrades, and knowing how to handle late game situations in general. It is a sentiment shared by the likes of Bisu and EffOrt, who both said Shuttle's focus and mastery specifically for the late game situations is unmatched. It is a trait that is shared in his protoss-versus-terran play, where he focuses on having the correct army compositions for head-on battles, rather than trying to out-maneuver the enemy. I personally think the onus is on Action to prevent Shuttle from playing the style he prefers, because Shuttle is a force to be reckoned with if the situation allows for it.

I would argue that SnOw is rather weak at late large scale battles in general, what with his inefficient late game army compositions and not being as obsessed with having good upgrades. His focus is on out-maneuvering the enemy with good movement (he hates head-on collisions), and using certain key units such as reavers and carriers in a frustrating manner for the opposition, rather than engaging head-on like Shuttle, and winning through brute force. If Mini is the master of micro-management with sheer execution, I'd say SnOw is the master of micro-management through movement and cerebral utilization. Both of these micro-management players aren't the greatest at large scale battles that Shuttle is famed for.