EPTRookie Teamleague 2 - Page 18
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
If you're talking in the abstract, yes, a rich zerg making hydras and a rich zerg making mutas can be difficult for a single non-Z to deal with. How's the game get there, though? It takes time. A 9p zerg isn't going to be making a ton of muta or a ton of hydras for a long time. At least one of the zergs needs to be massing lings at least for some time because a good enemy team will move out if they see both zergs going pure drones. If there is a P on the other team, there's a good chance that P just cannons his ramp and goes 2 gate +1 sairs. A PZ Z can hold his ramp vs ZZ if one enemy Z 12h'd and the PZ Z goes 12p + 11 hatch and makes sunken instantly. Double gate sair can be very difficult to deal with and can even beat the muta of the ZZ expoer if they mess up their micro at any point and let the sair count get too high. Once the sairs get out of control the 9p zerg is screwed, those OLs are gonna be dying nonstop. If zerg starts spending a bunch of money on spores and hydras and shit, then that's countered by the ling/muta or the MM or ground army of the sair P's ally. Meanwhile if it's a Terran, he's going to turtle until he has a large MM ball, and can play like it's a normal TvZ, just on one base for longer than usual. A Terran MM ball of sufficient size and microed properly is basically immune to any number of enemy zerglings, so if the T went MM he'll likely wait for that ball. If his ally is Z, and went +1 attack mass lings, he'll either break out on his own (+1 lings own ling vs ling) or the T will free him, and then they'll hit one or the other Z. 12h 2 hatch muta comes out at around ~6:10 and has a 15-20 second travel time, so if the expo Z was able to go straight drone muta the T moves out with first 18 MM (if 2 rax) at ~5:15 (15 units with firebat numbers based on scouting of how many lings there are + 3 medics) and the TZ goes for whichever enemy Z is weaker. It'll take 7-8 sunkens to defend if they go to the expo Z with a decent number of lings still alive. As I'm writing this I'm realizing it's not a fruitful endeavor to type it all up. There are too many scenarios, and timings and reactions are going to be different based on each game. Maybe T moves out stupidly and loses MM before there are enough to be immune to lings, so then he has to turtle for 5 minutes. Maybe the 9p Z ramp hatches late and loses it to 3 zealots + 9p lings before his ally can help. Who knows. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
GIR vs iRk meSiJa vs Russian Herb Tesagi vs eMg Red vs Inae TBD vs Total Rookie I will be updating it with fancy images and everythang soon (tM) | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Jealous
10258 Posts
On January 09 2018 07:51 Chrysanthemum wrote: The question of "how to beat a ZZ team" is not really answerable in the abstract I think. The only answer to that would be "play well." It will depend on a variety of factors. Generally a ZZ team will, as you said, 9p + expo, although it might double 9p or 9p + 12p expo or any other variation based on things like whether the enemy team is ZR, RR, positions, map, and so on. Then the single baser can be the techer while the expoer masses, or the single baser can mass while the expoer techs, again depending on various factors and preferences. If you're talking in the abstract, yes, a rich zerg making hydras and a rich zerg making mutas can be difficult for a single non-Z to deal with. How's the game get there, though? It takes time. A 9p zerg isn't going to be making a ton of muta or a ton of hydras for a long time. At least one of the zergs needs to be massing lings at least for some time because a good enemy team will move out if they see both zergs going pure drones. If there is a P on the other team, there's a good chance that P just cannons his ramp and goes 2 gate +1 sairs. A PZ Z can hold his ramp vs ZZ if one enemy Z 12h'd and the PZ Z goes 12p + 11 hatch and makes sunken instantly. Double gate sair can be very difficult to deal with and can even beat the muta of the ZZ expoer if they mess up their micro at any point and let the sair count get too high. Once the sairs get out of control the 9p zerg is screwed, those OLs are gonna be dying nonstop. If zerg starts spending a bunch of money on spores and hydras and shit, then that's countered by the ling/muta or the MM or ground army of the sair P's ally. Meanwhile if it's a Terran, he's going to turtle until he has a large MM ball, and can play like it's a normal TvZ, just on one base for longer than usual. A Terran MM ball of sufficient size and microed properly is basically immune to any number of enemy zerglings, so if the T went MM he'll likely wait for that ball. If his ally is Z, and went +1 attack mass lings, he'll either break out on his own (+1 lings own ling vs ling) or the T will free him, and then they'll hit one or the other Z. 12h 2 hatch muta comes out at around ~6:10 and has a 15-20 second travel time, so if the expo Z was able to go straight drone muta the T moves out with first 18 MM (if 2 rax) at ~5:15 (15 units with firebat numbers based on scouting of how many lings there are + 3 medics) and the TZ goes for whichever enemy Z is weaker. It'll take 7-8 sunkens to defend if they go to the expo Z with a decent number of lings still alive. As I'm writing this I'm realizing it's not a fruitful endeavor to type it all up. There are too many scenarios, and timings and reactions are going to be different based on each game. Maybe T moves out stupidly and loses MM before there are enough to be immune to lings, so then he has to turtle for 5 minutes. Maybe the 9p Z ramp hatches late and loses it to 3 zealots + 9p lings before his ally can help. Who knows. I fully understand that there are simply too many scenarios to list and recount. I have watched a fair amount of A level or higher 2v2 replays trying to improve my own play and I looked at every one because I am an R main in 2v2 (mainly because I like going ZR as the R and getting ZZ, haha) and the trend was that while it was not an outright loss for the non-ZZ team as it feels at my level, but it did still seem disproportionately difficult. Of course, as ZZ or even ZZZ in 3v3 I've lost plenty of times so I know it's not unbeatable if the teamwork is poor which at my level it is bound to be, but it still felt like I had much more room to breathe as part of a Z-dominant team. That being said, I greatly appreciate your feedback and I will keep it in mind for next time I play 2v2 against ZZ. Even your brief recounting of a few scenarios was tremendously helpful to my understanding of what I should be thinking about in such a scenario. I wish more people discussed such things about 2v2 as there seems to be dearth of literature from competent players on the matter. Thank you. | ||
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
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Jealous
10258 Posts
On January 09 2018 08:12 Chrysanthemum wrote: I'm willing to give my input, whatever value it may have, I guess it's just hard without a specific scenario or question (e.g. a replay) Well, while I have you, I have a somewhat unrelated but definite interest in this replay I saw recently: http://bwreplays.com/0ksrb If you could share your thoughts on this approach to P/Z teaming, and your thoughts in general on the replay, I would appreciate it. Part of the difficulty of getting into 2v2 without a dedicated and experienced 2v2 partner is that it often feels like both players are playing 1v1 rush strats and neither really knows what they are doing, so there is no uniformity, too many unaccounted-for variables, and too many variables in general. It makes getting a grasp of 2v2 very difficult, for me. There is also the situation that if you're bad at 2v2, you either get crushed too fast to understand what happened by a good team, or you play similarly bad people and you don't know if you won the game because what you did was good or because the other teams just were shitty/unlucky compared to you. | ||
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
It's confusing me that the Z on this ZP team made 14 lings + legs and expo'd off an overpool + cannons, which means he has 7 drones mining minerals, with an 8th drone idle for a very long time, at the time his spire pops (and he only had 6 drones mining for most of the spire's build time). With overpool it's usually 8, maybe 10 lings no legs and pure drones when your ally send you zealot + is cannoning for you. I think it's also better to 8 gas before adding 3 drones. This teal zerg also made one too many drones to have 3 larva when pool finished, but maybe that was purposeful since P sent him a zealot. I understand the desire to have legs for ling backstabs on enemy Z's mineral line, but even if you do it, you don't need to make 14 lings like this teal Z did. As a result, despite his spire finishing at 5:30 which is typical of overpool->straight spire, his mutas are still super slow; he makes a round of drones from both his hatches after the spire, instead of being able to just make mutas. If he had had the extra 3-4 drones he should have, he would have mined an additional 180-240 minerals/minute for 2-3 minutes and then forward. He would have then had a large window of time to do whatever; T didn't finish ebay til around 6:30 and TZ Z has to spore hard and start lair, so the PZ Z should have total free reign in the air for at least 3 minutes before any TZ mutas come out (lair - 60 sec build time, spire 75 sec build time, muta 25 sec build time). Teal coulda been harassing white's mineral line from below (take a few spore hits) or T's nat line. And in fact White doesn't have his first muta out until 9:30 (4 minutes after teal had spire and an expansion). If Teal Z had been harassing Terran and if Teal had proper muta micro, Terran would not have been able to move out and stop the P's first attempt to expand (or he may have been able to, but it would have been far harder--he'd have to micro at home vs muta as well as control his army attacking P). T's first vessel with irradiate and energy is at 12:30, which is quite slow IMO given that he got away with expoing so early. At this point, by my count, teal has 18 mutas out (+3 sitting at home and 3 building) while White has 17 mutas. Both have +1 carapace. T also already has a pretty much saturated 3rd base. These are not the numbers you want to be seeing when P cannoned for Z to expo, which was then completely uncontested. But Teal's eco advantage is starting to kick in more, so now he has significantly more muta. White has no chance to win in a muta vs muta fight. PZ kills TZ army pretty handily in the first big clash, putting Teal Z wayyy ahead of White Z in muta count. Teal Z makes a big mistake here and continues to fight, losing way too many mutas against white's muta + blue's mm right afterwards (this is specifically at 13:43 in the replay--look at the populations--Teal goes from 82 to 62 pop, while White goes from 58 to 60 pop over the course of the fight). Now it's 12 white muta to 14 teal muta, and white has somehow managed to get an expansion completely unmolested. The Teal Z should have stopped that White expansion instead of engaging the way he did; after the first big fight, white has less than 1/2 teal's muta count and blue has literally zero vessels, so the only way that white nat is living is if blue stims his marines super hard and maybe barely gets there in time. Teal would also have been in a good position to take a third if he didnt lose half his mutas (although he does get a third 3 minutes later). On the T side of things obviously he coulda added like 7 more rax before this point, he only has 5 rax and he has 3 bases mining and is floating 3-4k minerals, but it's pretty difficult controlling big MM armies vs PZ, so I get it. It'd be a lot better to not have 4 rines queued up at a time though, and it's not great to be queueing up 4 vessels either. I am also a proponent of actually using the fac even if playing SK terran style, and have it constantly churning out vultures with mines and laying them as time permits. This is very good for obvious reasons; it's cheap, and P usually has a fairly heavy melee-oriented army + no obs until later. I also typically add in a dropship or two when I have 2 ports. I didn't really watch the P very closely. I think he was slow on adding gates after this expo, but didn't really look. P is a pretty braindead race to play in PZ vs TZ IMO, so it's not that hard once you get the beginning strats down. Mid-game is just a reactive mix of archon/DA with maelstrom/HT with storm/zealot/goons, throw in a reaver in a shuttle if you really want to make the T miserable. In the end, the PZ team wins because TZ vs PZ requires about 100x more effort out of the T than it does out of the P. TZ was in a position to win (and I think should have won) from the 12 minute mark onwards but couldn't close it out, mostly because the T couldn't keep up with the control. Fucking up for 1/2 a second and losing everything to a single storm is definitely one of the most frustrating experiences in BW.  | ||
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Jealous
10258 Posts
One thing that stands out to me that I am curious about - you mention that both Zerg went for armor as opposed to attack for their Muta, but I was of the impression that it makes more sense to get attack (unless facing Corsair). Is this something I am completely wrong about, and can you give me some insight as to why? Thank you once again. | ||
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
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Jealous
10258 Posts
On January 09 2018 10:45 Chrysanthemum wrote: +armor is typically justified by the idea (beyond +1 armor being useful in general vs everything) that it will reduce the damage of each enemy muta bounce in muta vs muta fights. I think +attack is not bad either though, and it's also cheaper at 100/100 instead of 150/150. In general if it's laggy or difficult to control or you're not a great muta microer armor is just easier, you get the benefit 100% of the time, but if you're confident in your muta micro +1 attack isn't bad--its really good vs Terran MM, but obviously in 2v2 you have another opponent to deal with. Level 1 upgrades take ~170 seconds to upgrade--Teal could have had +1 of either done and started +1 of the other and still had 1/1 before White had 1/0 if he had eco'd properly at the start. Thank you, I suspected as much. It simply seems like +1 attack makes more sense because I believe you need 1 fewer Muta in your stack to 1-shot many opposing units, and the corollary to what you said (+1 armor benefits against every Muta attack bounce) is also true with +1 attack benefiting every ricochet if I'm not mistaken? You do make a solid point about lag/control and the fact that armor is permanent and inherent, though. | ||
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iopq
United States1030 Posts
You would think it's 20 damage down to 19 / 2 = 9.5 damage because of explosive, but it's actually 20 damage down to 10 because of explosive in two 5 damage rockets down to two 4 damage rockets so now it's 8 damage. They get 4 damage per upgrade to air, so it cancels out, but that's a huge difference either way. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28731 Posts
Muta ricochets are given fractions of upgrades. I don't know the exact number but it feels like 1/3 of an upgrade and 1/9 of an upgrade - so when you have +3 attack, the 9-3-1 has turned into 12-4-1.333. But +1 attack is only 10-3.333-1.1111 | ||
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
On January 09 2018 11:34 Jealous wrote: Thank you, I suspected as much. It simply seems like +1 attack makes more sense because I believe you need 1 fewer Muta in your stack to 1-shot many opposing units, and the corollary to what you said (+1 armor benefits against every Muta attack bounce) is also true with +1 attack benefiting every ricochet if I'm not mistaken? You do make a solid point about lag/control and the fact that armor is permanent and inherent, though. It's particularly strong against bio because with +1 4 mutas can 1 shot a marine instead of 5, which makes the hold position style of micro much stronger and a higher chance to kill 2+ marines per shot. In terms of focus fire though, I think with 11 muta the only thing that will take fewer shots to kill is a turret (will die immediately in 2 11 muta volleys instead of burning down afterwards). I guess it also allows 8 mutas to one shot a 0/0 hydra instead of 9 mutas. And Eriador is correct, I believe mutas damage is simply calculated as 3 bounces with each one being 1/3 of the previous, so each +1 adds +1, +.33 and +.165 to the bounces respectively I didn't know about this TL Plus thing before you gave it to me, but thanks. | ||
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iopq
United States1030 Posts
On January 09 2018 12:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: armor is subtracted before size calculations come into play. Armor vs goliath makes it go from 2x10 to 2x9 and then divided in half. So the damage is still only reduced from 10 to 9 even with goliaths having two attacks. Muta ricochets are given fractions of upgrades. I don't know the exact number but it feels like 1/3 of an upgrade and 1/9 of an upgrade - so when you have +3 attack, the 9-3-1 has turned into 12-4-1.333. But +1 attack is only 10-3.333-1.1111 oh, yeah, that's right, so it's 10 to 9 reduction only the muta damage works like this: 9-3-1 8-2-0.5 7-1-0.5 10-3.3-1.1 9-2.3-0.5 8-1.3-0.5 11-3.6-1.2 10-2.6-0.5 9-1.6-0.5 12-4-1.3 11-3-0.5 10-2-0.5 so yes, it's actually 1/3, but 0.5 damage is the smallest amount you can take (you can take fractional damage, but not sure to how many decimal points) | ||
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Tossrandir
10 Posts
https://starlog.gg/en/profile/us-east/_Tahm_Kench_ | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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QuickStriker
United States3694 Posts
Hopefully this gets approved and I can prepare for potential cast after work tonight (setting up my new system, QAing, etc) so initial cast lunch can go well! YouTube VODs will be provided for the matches I cast sometime after the actual live cast. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
I asked SNM if he wanted to join me, but unsure of who to use as a cocaster, if not solo. If you wanna cocast reach out. ALSO: Please, people, if you want me to cast your series do so by sending me NON-SPOILER REPLAY PACKS. I will, of course, cast TBD's series incredibly biased, so don't take it seriously. | ||
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