EPTRookie Teamleague 2 - Page 17
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Favian[PaiN]
United States75 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
twitch.tv/ninazerg | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
Part of the reason I made the 2v2 double Zerg team ban was because of knowing at a professional level it is banned, and foreign tournaments/leagues have historically followed suit, even up to today with PATL and others. Some points I want people to think about before voting:
Poll: Allow ZZ teams in RTL 2v2? No (42) Yes (22) 64 total votes Your vote: Allow ZZ teams in RTL 2v2? Edit; I'll have the voting go until new years day. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2614 Posts
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chrisolo
Germany2614 Posts
Red.Rails (P): https://starlog.gg/en/profile/europe/Sektion31?v=ladder_stats Red.unozerg (Z): https://starlog.gg/en/profile/europe/unozerg?v=ladder_stats Red.Jounsn (T): https://starlog.gg/en/profile/europe/Dampfgenuss?v=ladder_stats Thank you very much. | ||
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iopq
United States1197 Posts
Who the fuck uses EDT in January? | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On January 07 2018 09:09 iopq wrote: > Time: January 7th, 3:00PM EDT Who the fuck uses EDT in January? Wtf is EDT | ||
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iopq
United States1197 Posts
I don't know, why don't you ask whoever posted that in the first post in this thread On November 29 2017 05:42 SCC-Faust wrote: Time: January 7th, 3:00PM EDT | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Jealous
10407 Posts
On January 08 2018 03:46 SCC-Faust wrote: This starts in about an hour. Please be sure to join the discord (in the OP) to keep up to date, I've fallen behind on updating this thread because I'm a shitlord. It'll all be updated during the week tho. I usually updated it at work but I didn't have work last week so I got really lazy with all the clerical shit. But yeah, the discord is 100% up to date in the info channels. Can we at least get the poll results tho | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Jealous
10407 Posts
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck. No man, still can't see them. | ||
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iopq
United States1197 Posts
40 No, 22 Yes | ||
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TelecoM
United States10890 Posts
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck. It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On January 08 2018 12:54 GGzerG wrote: It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro dumb post | ||
HaN-
France1920 Posts
On January 08 2018 12:54 GGzerG wrote: It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro Agreed. KenZy and Aldaren, high level 2v2 players who have a lot of experience with all match ups, told me ZZ is NOT overpowered and that it is a myth that it was banned in Korea. They also told me that according to Scan, ZT vs ZZ is 60/40 and ZP vs ZZ is 55/45. | ||
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abitStar1
4 Posts
https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard?bulk=1&toons_bulk=mSj[Darkysh]&gateway_name=europe&p=q | ||
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Jealous
10407 Posts
Still can't see it. | ||
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Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
For example, consider Python. If the Z team gets an early advantage they can take the mineral only, the far corners, and maybe the islands. The non-Z team, if patient, likely cannot be stopped from taking at least their naturals eventually. Once the non-Z team is behind, however, they're not going to be taking a far corner unless the Z team fails miserably in scouting or really screws up in a fight and loses their entire army--the expo is simply too far away. Islands are also difficult to get up when behind, especially vs mutas and zerg drops. If the non-Z team share 6/7 or 11/12 they might get one island, but otherwise it's unlikely. So, the early game advantage will secure the Z team thirds, while preventing the stronger (if bases were even) non-Z team from getting thirds. On the other hand, in FS, or CB, the non-Z team can just turtle and move to their third slowly. They know that so long as they play it slow and patient, make sure they don't die, and secure the third, the Z team can at most get 3 bases each. Z is generally weaker than the other races when bases are even, so the non-Z team is "ahead" if each player in the game has 3 bases. Obviously if Z team will be trying to prevent 3rds and prevent the above scenario, and there are a million factors that go into each game. But that's just my very macro level analysis of how the more modern maps affect 2v2. I also think the idea of ZZ being "overpowered" was exacerbated by the fact that anytime a team lost to ZZ, they had the easy excuse that ZZ was "imba." I think that there's probably no real reason to ban ZZ, especially when there are no top players in the tournament anyways. But if the tournament participants don't want ZZ then what does it matter, ban it if you want. | ||
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Jealous
10407 Posts
On January 09 2018 03:17 Chrysanthemum wrote: I would have agreed that ZZ was slightly stronger than other combinations back in the day (2008-2010) when I was playing a lot of high level 2v2, but the advent of a better understanding of the game + modern maps ("modern" meaning post-python really) diluted that advantage. Easy thirds for the non-Z races and lack of bases for the ZZ to take and overwhelm the opponent have changed the calculus. TP is also stronger versus ZR teams than in the old days for the same reasons. ZR teams still hold the advantage over non-Z teams in general, I think, but it's not as significant as it used to be because it's now easier to lose that advantage. For example, consider Python. If the Z team gets an early advantage they can take the mineral only, the far corners, and maybe the islands. The non-Z team, if patient, likely cannot be stopped from taking at least their naturals eventually. Once the non-Z team is behind, however, they're not going to be taking a far corner unless the Z team fails miserably in scouting or really screws up in a fight and loses their entire army--the expo is simply too far away. Islands are also difficult to get up when behind, especially vs mutas and zerg drops. If the non-Z team share 6/7 or 11/12 they might get one island, but otherwise it's unlikely. So, the early game advantage will secure the Z team thirds, while preventing the stronger (if bases were even) non-Z team from getting thirds. On the other hand, in FS, or CB, the non-Z team can just turtle and move to their third slowly. They know that so long as they play it slow and patient, make sure they don't die, and secure the third, the Z team can at most get 3 bases each. Z is generally weaker than the other races when bases are even, so the non-Z team is "ahead" if each player in the game has 3 bases. Obviously if Z team will be trying to prevent 3rds and prevent the above scenario, and there are a million factors that go into each game. But that's just my very macro level analysis of how the more modern maps affect 2v2. I also think the idea of ZZ being "overpowered" was exacerbated by the fact that anytime a team lost to ZZ, they had the easy excuse that ZZ was "imba." I think that there's probably no real reason to ban ZZ, especially when there are no top players in the tournament anyways. But if the tournament participants don't want ZZ then what does it matter, ban it if you want. I would never claim to be even a decent 2v2 player given my max is C+ in it on ICCup from around 2010 or so, but my personal reason for voting "No" was because it feels like it creates the following scenario, in my experience: 1. One Zerg goes Hatchery first 2. One Zerg goes Pool first 3. It is difficult to punish this because if you are a Protoss or Terran, you don't have an adequate army out on the field to both stop the 12 Hatch and defend your home against the speed-first player. 4. As a result, one player can go for Hydra/Lurk while the other can go for Muta, which forces both Terran and Protoss to diversify their composition and defenses while still likely being kept to one base - which makes it even harder to generate the requisite forces to combat a diverse ZZ. Again, I admit my understanding of 2v2 and vs. ZZ is limited to my own experience as an R main in 2v2 (and P main in 1v1) but this has happened too many times for me to count. In the interest of this league's constraints (rookies) perhaps someone can give me general advice on how to handle ZZ if your team doesn't have a Z on it? It just seems like ZZ can take economic initiative much easier than P/T, and as a result snowball into a W. | ||
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