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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
Federer was boring for a bit. Djoković was boring for a bit. (when they were dominating ruthlessly) When someone is so unphased by the competition and focused on results without caring too much on giving the show to the fans, people will get bored. Honestly, Flash looked bored to me when he was taking the trophy and giving the interview. Seemed to me like he feigned excitement, just to pay respect to the tournament and his opponents. Compare: even he is bored :p | ||
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Miragee
8381 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:28 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I love me some Flash dominance but he kind of broke the game and nobody will ever come close to him until his age catches up to him. He will retire at his prime, sadly. Maybe we've already seen the best P or Z and just won't admit that at the highest human-level BW, Terran has a huge advantage and only Flash has been able to figure it out and execute properly Wait what? He won't retire at his prime because his prime was back in 2010/2011... | ||
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:49 Djabanete wrote: Each race has something that makes it exciting. Zergs are constantly living on the edge --- whether because they are being greedy or because they are attacking ruthlessly, they're always one false step away from disaster, but their flanking and counterattacks are feared by the other races. Protosses have their fireworks --- psionic storms, reaver drops, recalls. Terrans, even since Boxer, have stood for versatility and special tactics using tanks, drops, and terrain advantage. Their best offensive unit is also their best defensive unit --- there's no better way to destroy the opponent's base than to "defend" it from your opponent using siege tanks on high ground. Terran doesn't have any worthwhile melee-range units. Zealots can crash into tank lines and scourges can be among the most exciting and unstable units in the game, but 95% of the time a Terran player who is not sheltering their army under siege tanks is just not playing properly. (Bio TvZ is excepted, but nonetheless, marines outrange muta+ling and siege tanks are often used to defeat lurkers. The range advantage stays with Terran.) This aspect of Terran play is not Flash's fault. He has learned and incorporated the best that any other Terran player has ever offered (with the notable exception of Fantasy's gift for vulture chaos) and then added a lot of his own. I too found it a little disappointing that neither Bisu nor Hero could come closer to beating him, but I would not chalk such disappointment up to Flash's style. Rather I would say that this is what Terran looks like, and we need more Zergs and Protosses to show us what the next level of their races looks like (if the game is indeed balanced). Several of them are close. Stop relying solely on ASL results and you would see that zergs and protosses have no problem beating terrans. Change Bisu to Best/Rain or prime Stork, and Hero to Effort/Larva/SK and this would be a much different tournament... also Flash had no problem 3-0ing the second best terran. | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation483 Posts
yep | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3088 Posts
Anyway, I cheer for Flash, Guess I enjoy the type of play he does. I wonder if he'll compete in ASL 5 if there is gonna be one. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
You people who call him boring are the same folks who refused to accept him as the Last Bonjwa lol | ||
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Miragee
8381 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:11 Shady Sands wrote: What a bunch of pathetic haters lol You people who call him boring are the same folks who refused to accept him as the Last Bonjwa lol So much generalisation. Amazing. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 14 2017 14:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I don't think someones a simpleton for cheering for someone from there country. Nothing wrong with that as all. Anyway, I cheer for Flash, Guess I enjoy the type of play he does. I wonder if he'll compete in ASL 5 if there is gonna be one. Think of it as a spectrum, with varying degrees of severity. If the experience of watching a certain competitive field doesn't go beyond fulfilling your sense of national pride, then yes, you are a simpleton. If you are a girl who finds the prospect of approaching, and possibly dating a moderately attractive young guy of your liking with a paying job on television extremely appealing, and literally have zero interest in the scene otherwise, then yes, you are a simpleton. The more of these simpletons a scene can attract, the more lucrative the overall business becomes, so yes there is literally nothing wrong with having more of these people. However, it does not stop these people from being what they are. Which aspect of Flash's play stands out as being particularly attractive to you? If I were to rank his particular play-style in terms of enjoyment, I personally wouldn't rank him that highly. I don't find much joy in ruthless optimization and oppressive pressuring off that optimization that I personally associate with Flash, which is why I also don't find much joy in herO's tendency to excel in drone count optimization, and pressuring constantly for any weak points in the enemy. If I were to make analogies, Flash would be the type of boxer to abuse his range, while constantly wearing his opponent down with his superior movement and stamina. It is the constant threat of jabs from smart angles that breaks the opponent down, rather than raw explosiveness. It is suffocating approach, and not only did I prefer BoxeR out of all the all time great terran players in terms of play-style, I tended to enjoy games from Leta, or FanTaSy more enjoyable regardless of their success rate if we were to limit the pool to more recent players. FanTaSy out-performed Flash towards the end of professional Brood War, but I still found FanTaSy's approach to the game on a fundamental level more entertaining. There's a certain RPG element that could be found in many of the all-time greats that made it easy to spectate their games. BoxeR's immortal marines. FanTaSy's vultures from hell. Stork's immaculate carriers. Bisu's annoying corsairs. JangBi's army pulling off the impossible in the most dire of situations. Jaedong's famous turn of the tide moment. Like at any moment, it seemed like these players had the capacity get into their groove, and summon invincible heroes in the place of these fragile units that frustrated thousands of casual Brood War players. What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? One of the first things that come to my mind is his scan usage. It is always used in the right place, at the exact opportune moment. The way Flash scans behind the enemy's main army instead of scanning on top of it for checking out the composition for the second time, and checks for reinforcements and enemy's intentions in general in terms of movement. It truly is uncanny, but hardly the stuff that usually makes it into the highlight reels. Flash's immaculate decision making tends to nullify the raw electrifying multi-tasking abilities, or perfect micro-management abilities of his peers, and it is only when you cause an error in judgement from Flash that evens out the playing field somewhat, it's been quite a while since anybody managed to out-muscle Flash with raw skill on a consistent basis. I think EffOrt has been quite cunning in his approach, and tended to force a lot of misjudgments from Flash throughout the years. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3088 Posts
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jinjin5000
Korea (South)1357 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17#328 | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
I think it juts showed everyone how to play against the mech switch as he wasnt even in a good position AND lost guardians for almost nothing. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5211 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:50 niteReloaded wrote: Sampras was boring. Federer was boring for a bit. Djoković was boring for a bit. (when they were dominating ruthlessly) W/ the other 2 you are right but Federer was never boring. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4641 Posts
On November 14 2017 17:54 jinjin5000 wrote: translated flash's analysis of him vs hero http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17 Thanks! If you add the post number #328 you can get a better direct link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17#328 | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 14 2017 19:00 Ota Solgryn wrote: That game 3 was amazing. + Show Spoiler + I think it juts showed everyone how to play against the mech switch as he wasnt even in a good position AND lost guardians for almost nothing. - early mass ling did nothing - mutas did nothing - lost a bunch of mutas to stop the push - guardians did nothing - hold pos lurker did nothing - still won | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On November 14 2017 13:34 Essbee wrote: Stop relying solely on ASL results and you would see that zergs and protosses have no problem beating terrans. Change Bisu to Best/Rain or prime Stork, and Hero to Effort/Larva/SK and this would be a much different tournament... also Flash had no problem 3-0ing the second best terran. I think my last paragraph sounds like I am talking about tesagi, but I'm not. My post was meant as a response to people saying that Flash's style was boring. I don't think he is a boring player on a personal level, as he fully embraces all the versatility and possibilities of the Terran race ("this is what Terran looks like") --- if one is bored, it's because of Terran itself or (more likely) because of Flash's win rate removing the sense of suspense and wearing thin the same story line. Personally I don't find his style boring, nor did I mean to take away from the accomplishments of people like Best, Soulkey, and Effort. I take it from your mention of Flash 3-0 Mind (or maybe you meant Flash 3-0 Last, either way) that you are arguing for no tesagi and Flash as an outlier, with which I agree (or at least I think that statistics can be slippery and balance depends a lot on the maps, and Flash is definitely an outlier, and statements of race balance can't be conveniently proven based on the data we have). | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Less emotions better concentration in this sport its big advantage. I cant be a Flash fan, i find his style to be hardcore abusive which is no fun. I can accept his level but he doesnt bring me any memorable moments of joy and i never been in awe of what he is doing in a game, apart from his map hack scans. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:43 Letmelose wrote: What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? For me, I'll always remember Flash's goliath vs carrier battles on Katrina vs Stork in the GOMTV finals. That was what got me into watching BW, though I'd watched some of Boxer's and Nada's dominance earlier. Maybe he doesn't seem to have a "specific move" because he seems to figure out and then utterly destroy opponent's strategies so often. Then people are forced to innovate against him, or else they lose in the same manner over and over. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. I enjoy his play style a lot, and I certainly don't have a high level of understanding. Could be that I like the person more than the play, but for me it's exciting to watch the perfect defense he pulls so often with the exact minimum required of units/time. There's so many moments where other players would get killed instantly but Flash somehow miraculously defends. The way he finishes opponents may not be the most flashy, but it's the way he gets there that I find exciting and hard to believe sometimes. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9925 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:43 Letmelose wrote: Think of it as a spectrum, with varying degrees of severity. If the experience of watching a certain competitive field doesn't go beyond fulfilling your sense of national pride, then yes, you are a simpleton. If you are a girl who finds the prospect of approaching, and possibly dating a moderately attractive young guy of your liking with a paying job on television extremely appealing, and literally have zero interest in the scene otherwise, then yes, you are a simpleton. The more of these simpletons a scene can attract, the more lucrative the overall business becomes, so yes there is literally nothing wrong with having more of these people. However, it does not stop these people from being what they are. Which aspect of Flash's play stands out as being particularly attractive to you? If I were to rank his particular play-style in terms of enjoyment, I personally wouldn't rank him that highly. I don't find much joy in ruthless optimization and oppressive pressuring off that optimization that I personally associate with Flash, which is why I also don't find much joy in herO's tendency to excel in drone count optimization, and pressuring constantly for any weak points in the enemy. If I were to make analogies, Flash would be the type of boxer to abuse his range, while constantly wearing his opponent down with his superior movement and stamina. It is the constant threat of jabs from smart angles that breaks the opponent down, rather than raw explosiveness. It is suffocating approach, and not only did I prefer BoxeR out of all the all time great terran players in terms of play-style, I tended to enjoy games from Leta, or FanTaSy more enjoyable regardless of their success rate if we were to limit the pool to more recent players. FanTaSy out-performed Flash towards the end of professional Brood War, but I still found FanTaSy's approach to the game on a fundamental level more entertaining. There's a certain RPG element that could be found in many of the all-time greats that made it easy to spectate their games. BoxeR's immortal marines. FanTaSy's vultures from hell. Stork's immaculate carriers. Bisu's annoying corsairs. JangBi's army pulling off the impossible in the most dire of situations. Jaedong's famous turn of the tide moment. Like at any moment, it seemed like these players had the capacity get into their groove, and summon invincible heroes in the place of these fragile units that frustrated thousands of casual Brood War players. What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? One of the first things that come to my mind is his scan usage. It is always used in the right place, at the exact opportune moment. The way Flash scans behind the enemy's main army instead of scanning on top of it for checking out the composition for the second time, and checks for reinforcements and enemy's intentions in general in terms of movement. It truly is uncanny, but hardly the stuff that usually makes it into the highlight reels. Flash's immaculate decision making tends to nullify the raw electrifying multi-tasking abilities, or perfect micro-management abilities of his peers, and it is only when you cause an error in judgement from Flash that evens out the playing field somewhat, it's been quite a while since anybody managed to out-muscle Flash with raw skill on a consistent basis. I think EffOrt has been quite cunning in his approach, and tended to force a lot of misjudgments from Flash throughout the years. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. I would argue that FlaSh doesn't have a specific unit that he excels at, rather he has mastered the micro of almost every unit. His marine micro is incredible stellar, with his spreads vs lurkers and his reaction time to muta harass in TvZ as one example. His vulture micro is also quite good, though not as good as fantasy's. His goliath control vs air units is second-to-none. He even shows pretty decent wraith micro in the finals vs hero. So overall, I would argue that FlaSh is so good with every unit that it makes it look like nothing stands out to him. He doesn't have a special unit because all of his units are special. It's like the DOTA reference of every hero being overpowered therefore no hero is overpowered. In addition, his understanding of build orders and timings are immaculate. While you cannot visualize his builds as well and his understanding of each matchup and what to do in every specific situation, I think it is elegant to watch perfection being played. It is a subtle art to witness what he does, and although at face value it might look boring because everything of his is so optimized that there is almost no glaring hole in his play, can you really fault that to him? His goal is to win and to win means to do everything in your power to maximize your chance of winning and minimize your chance of losing. While to some that might be stupid and boring, to me it is the epitome of beautiful starcraft. Same with Chess in a way (although beautiful combinations and lines lead to spectacular finishes), a lot of games might look quite boring to you, with generally whoever is the better player by a slight bit using their positional advantage to slowly starve out the oponent until they are forced into a bad move. It might look boring, but the positional play is what is beautiful to watch as well, with all the pieces working in tandem to create a good position with no weaknesses. | ||
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