EPT[ASL4] Ro4 Flash vs Bisu - Page 51
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
On November 01 2017 11:02 Essbee wrote: It's as if people choose not to pay attention to ANYTHING outside of the asl on purpose. What about effort, like a week ago? As if Effort beating him in one series means anything. Jaedong's done it a couple times too you know. "Flash vs anyone/anymap" there is nobody close in terms of overall skill. If both played a series today you would bet on effort right? | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 12:49 BLinD-RawR wrote: actually no, sponmatches are the highest for players, even more than offline tournaments. People put more emphasis on the asl because it's flashy, but it's very wrong to do since there is way more stuff going on outside of the asl (general streaming, sponmatches, kcm, ogn...). | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 12:51 Broodwar4lyf wrote: As if Effort beating him in one series means anything. Jaedong's done it a couple times too you know. "Flash vs anyone/anymap" there is nobody close in terms of overall skill. If both played a series today you would bet on effort right? Effort is pretty close in term of overall skill. And I would bet on flash because he's better and also because of the tvz advantage. But you are crazy if you think effort can't win. He just did it a week or 2 ago... how is it that much different from today??? You use flash constantly destroying inferior competition in the asl to prove that flash is above anyone. It's true that no one is as good but if there's one player that is almost just as good it is effort. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:05 usopsama wrote: Are the salty bisu fanboys really trying to make the argument that sponmatches are comparable or higher than the ASL? I don't even. where was that said? The point was that sponmatches are extremely important because they are one of the ways the players can actually make a living. Not everyone gets a gazillion balloons like Flash does after all so you need to secure other sources. During the KeSPA era, you still got a salary if you performed well in PL even if you failed to qualify in MSL/OSL etc... but that's not the case here. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:05 usopsama wrote: Are the salty bisu fanboys really trying to make the argument that sponmatches are comparable or higher than the ASL? I don't even. I am not a bisu fanboy lol, but you must have a great a explanation for your point, I want to hear it. I don't see how the asl is somehow higher especially when bisu played much better on stream... | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:18 mishimaBeef wrote: Anyone who's studied peak performance to any considerable degree knows that games on stream are not comparable to offline tournaments. Yeah that is true, but not always. Flash definitely plays better if he prepares for a bo5, no doubt about it. But bisu played worse offline than on stream, so your point fails. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:21 mishimaBeef wrote: Yeah but the psychology there was totally different. So he was in an entirely different state. Today he knew flash would bring 100% and that may have psyched him out. Yeah exactly, that's what I am saying, then why is the asl more telling than online stuff (or even ogn which was offline btw)? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Even flash himself can't maintain top level performance for 10+ games or whatever he does on stream. Ogn offline is relevant, but as far as I can tell was 5+ years ago? | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:23 mishimaBeef wrote: Umm, because ASL is where peak performance happens? Even flash himself can't maintain top level performance for 10+ games or whatever he does on stream. Ogn offline is relevant, but as far as I can tell was 5+ years ago? It was 2 weeks ago... And also, we've just proven that the asl isn't where peak performance happens for everyone, it happens for some players, some players are better offline than online and vice-versa. Remember larva? The online god who couldn't do anything offline? That had nothing to do with his game, but his nerves. How does that make the asl more relevant in term for the results? It's the opposite. Also, what was flash's best competition this asl? A nervous and disappointing Bisu, or a much inferior terran in Mind? What if effort, larva and soulkey didnt have to go through the rock/paper/scissor matchup that flash doesn't have to go through? This asl has been a joke for flash, no wonder he'll get another title. There's nothing anyone can do about it. Yeah sure he's the best player but it's not like he had any real opposition, the brackets favored him greatly too so that sure helps. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:29 mishimaBeef wrote: The point is ASL is where the largest *potential* for peak performance happens (this goes for any major offline tournament). This plays into the psychology and could affect a player and cause him not to perform at *his* best (e.g. Bisu today). Yeah I can see that, good point. But it's based around the importance of a particular event, this is very specific imo, there's much more stuff going on. Yeah your point still stands, but flash had an easy asl anyway so all of this is futile until he has actual competition (bisu should have been but he was disappointing, might have been the nerves, anyone facing flash on the big stage will probably feel nervous). | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:32 usopsama wrote: Your logic makes no sense. If Bisu is so bad that he tilts in front of a live broadcast and audience, that's his personal problem. If Bisu cannot play at his best unless he is playing sponmatches at the comfort of his home, that is his personal problem. That is not evidence that sponmatches are "higher" than offline events. That's like saying that if a student performs better in a practice exam taken at home and worst in an actual exam at a live classroom environment, that the practice exam is worth more than the actual exam. Makes no fucking sense. How does that make no sense? Why do you only care about the superficial value that is put onto a specific circumstance judged by some random people? Yeah it's his personal problem, sure, that's what he has to improve on then, cool. Seeing them play well online makes me believe that a lot of good players could beat flash in a bo5 if they had the same nerves, preparation and overall knowledge of the game. The practice exam isn't worth less than the actual exam, it's worth less because your school said so, but it's the same exam, the same game. Nerves don't change the potential of your skillset, they can just affect it negatively. People really need to stop thinking that flash is an unbeatable killing machine just because he faces no real competition in an artificially more "important" asl. He loses plenty of games everywhere else, because he faces ACTUAL competition. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Once you track the record of sponsored matches over the last six months (May 2017 to November 2017), ELO points are as follows: 1. Flash: 1240.5 points 2. Jaedong: 1223.5 points 3. Bisu: 1210.5 points 4. BeSt: 1198.9 points 5. EffOrt: 1193.2 points 6. Soulkey: 1190.7 points 7. Last: 1183.8 points 8. herO: 1176.4 points 9. Mind: 1160.2 points 10. SnOw: 1131.2 points Who here agrees with the above list word for word, if you consider results from sponsored matches to match the overall form of players of today? For example, SnOw is a protoss-versus-terran specialist, and played his most prized match-up in over 55% of his sponsored matches. Within his particular domain, he is a top notch player, but unfortunately you cannot pick and choose which match-ups you are going to play when you compete in the ASL. There is only one streamer has had the upper hand versus Flash over the past six months, and that's Rain (head-to-head record of 27-25). However, just because he has a good read on Flash doesn't mean he is guaranteed to do well versus other players. ASL is not a testing ground for who can defeat Flash. It is the same with Bisu. People sponsor more protoss-versus-zerg match-ups for Bisu, because they want to see him at his best. Sponsored matches are somewhat like ProLeague matches of old. Players can often cherry pick their opponents of choice and map of preference. It is not the same as being put into a competitive environment where everything outside of your innate gaming ability and preparation is outside your control. You cannot ask for a rematch after you lost an elimination series in the ASL, just like you can ask your viewers for another sponsored match to "even" out the score. You cannot pick and choose your opponents, and dodge certain players if you are not "feeling" up to par. ASL is important not because of the prize pool or the prestige, but because it forces players to perform no matter what the situation. You are called upon to perform at the highest level on that day, versus whichever opponent the tournament has arranged for you, on map pools that are totally outside of your control. The only thing a player can do is be at his best, not when he feels like it under comfortable circumstances, but with the hands he is dealt with. It is a test of mettle no amount of sponsored match success can replace. Just my two cents on the matter. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 01 2017 13:42 Letmelose wrote: Sponsored matches are indeed important, but are not indicative of what will happen in the ASL. Once you track the record of sponsored matches over the last six months (May 2017 to November 2017), ELO points are as follows: 1. Flash: 1240.5 points 2. Jaedong: 1223.5 points 3. Bisu: 1210.5 points 4. BeSt: 1198.9 points 5. EffOrt: 1193.2 points 6. Soulkey: 1190.7 points 7. Last: 1183.8 points 8. herO: 1176.4 points 9. Mind: 1160.2 points 10. SnOw: 1131.2 points Who here agrees with the above list word for word, if you consider results from sponsored matches to match the overall form of players of today? For example, SnOw is a protoss-versus-terran specialist, and played his most prized match-up in over 55% of his sponsored matches. Within his particular domain, he is a top notch player, but unfortunately you cannot pick and choose which match-ups you are going to play when you compete in the ASL. There is only one streamer has had the upper hand versus Flash over the past six months, and that's Rain (head-to-head record of 27-25). However, just because he has a good read on Flash doesn't mean he is guaranteed to do well versus other players. ASL is not a testing ground for who can defeat Flash. It is the same with Bisu. People sponsor more protoss-versus-zerg match-ups for Bisu, because they want to see him at his best. Sponsored matches are somewhat like ProLeague matches of old. Players can often cherry pick their opponents of choice and map of preference. It is not the same as being put into a competitive environment where everything outside of your innate gaming ability and preparation is outside your control. You cannot ask for a rematch after you lost an elimination series in the ASL, just like you can ask your viewers for another sponsored match to "even" out the score. You cannot pick and choose your opponents, and dodge certain players if you are not "feeling" up to par. ASL is important not because of the prize pool or the prestige, but because it forces players to perform no matter what the situation. You are called upon to perform at the highest level on that day, versus whichever opponent the tournament has arranged for you, on map pools that are totally outside of your control. The only thing a player can do is be at his best, not when he feels like it under comfortable circumstances, but with the hands they are dealt with. It is a test of mettle no amount of sponsored match success can replace. Just my two cents on the matter. Thanks, great post that is against what I was saying which I really appreciate. When I watch them play sponsored matches, I usually care about the current result I am seeing, the current playstyle they employ and how successful they are at it and how they adapt if they end up losing. I think that's super interesting and shows the potential and depth of not only bw, but of the players themselves. Those matches show the overall skillsets of the players, and I think that's great. But good point on the asl being a more actual testing ground for them. But I still feel like there's a lot of luck involved depending on the opponent and matchup you get. Someone like flash can be left unchallenged depending on the brackets, same with effort being drafted in an all zerg group and therefore having a higher chance of being eliminated and in turn making it easier for flash to grab yet another title. "Sponsored matches are somewhat like ProLeague matches of old", yeah I can see that, that makes a lot sense. I think people put more emphasis on the MSL and OSL without any real reason oustide of the prestige, so now with the ASL it's kind of the same thing, but you gave a great argument as to why it might be more important. But if the ASL was 100% the measure of skill for the players, you wouldn't see shine, hero, shuttle or sharp reaching the finals. There's an amount of draft luck that has to be considered, something that can put some players into a more comfortable situation. I'm pretty sure if flash faced rain in a bo5 he would probably win, because it's flash, he's the best at bo5s and stuff. But seeing rain having a positive record against me tells me that there's a chance out there, just gotta match flash in term of preparation and you have a chance. Even soulkey last season gave flash a scare by going 2-3 against him, and soulkey is a pretty calm and collected player and probably knows how to prepare for bo5s. As for the top10 you've posted, I don't think it accurately represent the skills of the players, because as you've said they can be put into an easier situation by having to play their best matchups. So that's why I basically just judge what I see on stream between the players, that's where I can see the skill potential. Like, I am not surprised seeing larva going so far, he was playing amazing on stream so he had that potential, he just had to overcome his nerves and he did it and went far only to go out because of zvz. What if he had the chance to face flash? He certainly seemed calm and ready, would have loved to see that, but unfortunately, it's not gonna happen, so flash has an easier time to grab another title. | ||
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Miragee
8594 Posts
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