[ASL4] Ro8 Soulkey vs hero

On October 17 2017 19:15 yOngKIN wrote:
Is ZvZ still coinflip?

On October 17 2017 19:24 PVJ wrote:
Wait, if Shine is streaming this from home does that mean that someone else is observing????????

On October 17 2017 19:27 GTR wrote:


probably 910

On October 17 2017 20:14 ppp87 wrote:
this song... so annoying

On October 18 2017 05:21 conTAgi0n wrote:

I mean I hear what you're saying, in that we didn't see his ZvZ muta micro in that group, but you're still not giving Larva nearly enough credit. He didn't mass lings in either game or go for any kind of cheese; he outsmarted and outmicroed both of his opponents pretty handily, both of whom are themselves very strong ZvZers.

In his game vs Shine, they both opened 9pool speed. Larva won multiple battles between equal ling counts, and consistently had his lings in better positions than Shine did. The fact that he smashed Shine so hard before mutas after identical openings and more or less equal ling production is impressive, especially since Shine's ling micro is not too shabby either.

Against EffOrt, once again, both players went for identical 12 hatch openings*. Both players made about 2 control groups of zerglings before the first engagement. Larva straight up outsmarted EffOrt by building sunks at home and hiding half his lings out on the map for a backstab. Apparently believing that Larva was behind in lings, EffOrt sent all of his lings to attack. Larva managed not only to totally crush EffOrt with his backstab, but lost practically no drones at home despite defending with only half his lings and a couple of sunks.

I'll confess that I haven't been watching Larva's stream often enough or actively enough to know what his muta micro looks like in ZvZ. Unless there is some reason to believe his muta/scourge micro lags behind the rest of his game though, I don't see how you can watch those games and not think that Larva is looking really formidable in the matchup. Even if all he's got going for him is his decision-making and micro with lings, that might almost be enough if he can keep performing like that.

* Technically, EffOrt went lair before ling speed and Larva went ling speed before lair, so the openings weren't exactly identical. Since ling speed was finished for both players before the first engage, EffOrt actually had a slight bo advantage at that point, since his muta/scourge would have started slightly sooner.

On October 18 2017 05:01 ppp87 wrote:


Seriously, that's an incomprehensible move from Soulkey, I just dont understand how it's possible to do it at pro lvl... can
someone explain this move please.

On October 18 2017 11:35 EsportsJohn wrote:


Honestly, Soulkey had a lot less information that we did. If we put ourselves in his shoes, it looks like a mirrored build (9pool vs 9pool) in which Soulkey managed to gain map control. Off the back of that map control, he got an earlier natural and what he thought might have been an extra drone or two. With the assumption that both builds were mirrored, there was definitely a chance to bust his opponent there and then just keep flooding scourge until his mutas won out, even with that extra 100 gas that hero saved by not going ling speed (which could have also gone into a fast carapace upgrade and given hero a stronger mid game advantage).

The same sort of thing happened in G1 as well. I'm tending toward believing that Soulkey had no idea he was facing an overpool in both games. From his perspective, it would have looked like a mirrored build where he had the tech advantage and a clear timing window to attack.

On October 18 2017 05:36 L_Master wrote:


We already talked about this in the other thread too Animus, Rain didn't throw anything, he just got outplayed.


Acting like Flash is more likely to "toyplay" with Larva than he is with SK is absolutely ridiculous. Neither player has a good chance, Flash is Flash when it comes down to it, but Larva, SK, and EffOrt are head and shoulders the best ZvTers playing right now. Moreover acting like Larva's ZvT is even remotely related to herO's ZvT is ridiculous. herO is, and has always been, a decent ZvZer and at times a brilliant ZvPer. His ZvT has always been mediocre.