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I think it’s pretty much inarguable that what Larva did was rude and disrespectful given that his opponent was not in on the joke. It’s patently obvious that it will be insulting in these circumstances. I don’t think Larva was being malicious, but it really reflects poorly on his self-judgment that this wasn’t apparent to him.
What does amaze me is the level of vitriol we’re seeing in the defenses put forward for Larva by various people in this thread and elsewhere. The most common seems to be that Larva’s antics made the series more entertaining and that Lx would have lost anyways. Well, no shit? What’s that got to do with whether it was rude or insulting or offensive? Larva does these things on his stream all the time, but that’s a different context than doing it in a livecasted LAN showmatch where *everyone* knows he is the overwhelming favorite and where he has basically been given a free trip to the US to be handed a $10k check. Another is "maybe Lx should have won if he didn't like it" or "maybe Lx should get good instead of crying." Again...???? What's that got to do with whether it was insulting or rude?
It seems incredibly difficult for some people to hold these two ideas in their mind simultaneously: that what Larva did was rude, but that they also found it entertaining. I guess the conclusion that follows--that you enjoyed something that many found to be meanspirited--is too much to admit? Therefore Larva was entirely justified and there is no issue whatsoever despite the objective fact that there seems to be a 50/50 split between that opinion and the opinion that it was rude and insulting? (and again--it doesn't need to be a split, because the two ideas can exist simultaneously).Come on.
I honestly feel like if you can’t see this you’re either still a teenager who’s never had to interact in the adult world or you’re the kind of person who is completely socially oblivious and is a pain in the ass for those in your social orbit.
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GREAT Tournament! loved the cast with the old pal's
Day 9 doing a great job in his flipflops
The only part that's sad is that so many people had to cancel the tournament, though its nothing ZOTAC can really do about it
really hope there will be more of these tournaments
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On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene).
As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/
The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen.
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On December 05 2017 02:15 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene). As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/ The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen.
Was this tournament even advertised by Blizzard or anywhere other than TL? I think it did as well as could be expected given how it was marketed.
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On December 05 2017 02:38 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 02:15 GoShox wrote:On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene). As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/ The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen. Was this tournament even advertised by Blizzard or anywhere other than TL? I think it did as well as could be expected given how it was marketed.
It was advertised on the Bnet launcher app.
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On December 05 2017 02:15 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene). As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/ The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen.
They're lucky to have had thousands of viewers throughout the entire tournament to be honest. From the way they advertised this event, to not knowing who is participating or getting substituted, the white noise issues, the player hotkey issues, the way it took over an hour to start on day 1, the stream dying numerous times, etc.
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I think that if this event and the subsequent drama has proved anything it's that a lot of the BW community really doesn't want the game to grow or become an entertaining esport. They just want to live in a little self-contained bubble w/ the same people they've been interacting with for decades. Anything outside that comfort zone is foreign and scary and must be squashed immediately!
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On December 05 2017 02:38 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 02:15 GoShox wrote:On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene). As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/ The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen. Was this tournament even advertised by Blizzard or anywhere other than TL? I think it did as well as could be expected given how it was marketed.
I hope it was advertised places other than TL, as the TL Zotac thread had no updates, announcements or player substitutions. We had to hear who was getting substituted from random people in the thread.
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On December 04 2017 20:53 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
sorry for off-topic, but is there anywhere an official bracket for this event? too see results?
im gonna try one more time, someone care to help here? I realize its an off-topic for this thread, but maybe someone has the knowledge...
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On December 05 2017 02:46 AManHasNoName wrote:
I think that if this event and the subsequent drama has proved anything it's that a lot of the BW community really doesn't want the game to grow or become an entertaining esport. They just want to live in a little self-contained bubble w/ the same people they've been interacting with for decades. Anything outside that comfort zone is foreign and scary and must be squashed immediately!
keep your simple resentments for yourself please and outside this forum if you don't enjoy the people who post here?
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On December 05 2017 03:22 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 02:46 AManHasNoName wrote:
I think that if this event and the subsequent drama has proved anything it's that a lot of the BW community really doesn't want the game to grow or become an entertaining esport. They just want to live in a little self-contained bubble w/ the same people they've been interacting with for decades. Anything outside that comfort zone is foreign and scary and must be squashed immediately! keep your simple resentments for yourself please and outside this forum if you don't enjoy the people who post here?
I want it to be known here, because I love the game and I want to see it grow. But, the closed minded attitudes of many in this community and the unwillingness to adapt to the current esports world is preventing the game from growing. Things need to change if BW is going to grow to what it once was as an esport, and for the foreign scene that change needs to start here on TL.
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On December 05 2017 01:01 iNcontroL wrote:
I was looking at your words and how you type and if you look closely it's like an idiot trying to find drama / meaning in something when it's explained by that person that they weren't mad ...
really, calling people idiots? He's not trying to convince you that you were mad, he's explaining why he thought you were mad.
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Larva did nothing wrong.
The skill gap is so large between Korea and the rest of the world that if you want competitive and close games you shouldn't put Koreans vs. Foreigners. This has been demonstrated many times throughout brood war history. Winning against Koreans is so rare that when a foreigner does win against a Korean in tournament the feat makes history and often becomes the crowning achievement of the foreign player.
I was under the impression that this is well understood and that Zotac invited a Korean for the purpose of creating entertaining, but not necessarily competitive matches.
I was wrong, the Zotac guys seemed really convinced before and after the tournament that the games were close and that there is only a small difference in skill between Larva/Korea and everyone else. Combine this with the naming convention of "Showmatch Event" which implies that the primary purpose was entertainment and we get what happened.
(Edit for clarification: This paragraph was just my explanation on how various factors could have contributed to the miscommunication leading up to the Grand Finals. I don't think the first sentence is applicable and after talking more with Zotac I think they knew about the skill difference.)
Larva, myself and other players were under the impression that the invite showmatch was primarily for entertainment. Larva especially had difficulty talking with much of the staff and players at Zotac due to the language barrier. And as shown on the stream the translator had a tendency to translate what was said more nicely and made it milder. Given all of this I'm not surprised that Larva thinks he asked for permission and was okay to mess around and Zotac thinks he didn't.
Larva did his best to show exactly what he thought he was supposed to show at the event. The tournament had ambiguous expectations and it's reasonable to think that a showmatch will or should have showmanship, which is Larva's specialty.
My other thoughts are that outside of games Larva is one of the nicest and most helpful people I've met. Even with a huge language barrier he was happy to try and help me out with my game and even practice with me. I never once saw him say or do anything rude outside of the games and was always very respectful to everyone.
Last tidbit and brag I beat Larva's Terran in a practice game and I just don't know why I play my heart out in practice against Larva then play so sloppily when it actually matters.
Replay below
https://www.mediafire.com/file/1l9tlc8bzmub2mp/Hawk_vs_Larva_ZvT.rep
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Thank you HAWK for telling us a little about what happened there.
GG!
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Never seen you play before, Hawk, but was super impressed with your ZvT, some top level plays, gg indeed.. Should've won that game on CB against KawaiiRice.
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On December 05 2017 04:35 Hawk2 wrote:Larva did nothing wrong. The skill gap is so large between Korea and the rest of the world that if you want competitive and close games you shouldn't put Koreans vs. Foreigners. This has been demonstrated many times throughout brood war history. Winning against Koreans is so rare that when a foreigner does win against a Korean in tournament the feat makes history and often becomes the crowning achievement of the foreign player. I was under the impression that this is well understood and that Zotac invited a Korean for the purpose of creating entertaining, but not necessarily competitive matches. I was wrong, the Zotac guys seemed really convinced before and after the tournament that the games were close and that there is only a small difference in skill between Larva/Korea and everyone else. Combine this with the naming convention of "Showmatch Event" which implies that the primary purpose was entertainment and we get what happened. Larva, myself and other players were under the impression that the invite showmatch was primarily for entertainment. Larva especially had difficulty talking with much of the staff and players at Zotac due to the language barrier. And as shown on the stream the translator had a tendency to translate what was said more nicely and made it milder. Given all of this I'm not surprised that Larva thinks he asked for permission and was okay to mess around and Zotac thinks he didn't. Larva did his best to show exactly what he thought he was supposed to show at the event. The tournament had ambiguous expectations and it's reasonable to think that a showmatch will or should have showmanship, which is Larva's specialty. My other thoughts are that outside of games Larva is one of the nicest and most helpful people I've met. Even with a huge language barrier he was happy to try and help me out with my game and even practice with me. I never once saw him say or do anything rude outside of the games and was always very respectful to everyone. Last tidbit and brag I beat Larva's Terran in a practice game and I just don't know why I play my heart out in practice against Larva then play so sloppily when it actually matters. Replay below https://www.mediafire.com/file/1l9tlc8bzmub2mp/Hawk_vs_Larva_ZvT.rep
Thanks for the insight. It’s great to hear from someone who was actually there and has more comprehensive knowledge of the situation. Also, great games! I know it’s tough to play on the big stage but I was still impressed by the quality of games you showed.
(Although, I was a bit sad when you just kept pumping ultras against kawaiirice and didn’t tech switch hehehe)
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On December 04 2017 12:45 Peeano wrote:
This cast is like watching Revenge of the Nerds, damn... Thank god for Day9 bringing some actual analytic commentary.
I used to really like Tasteless when he first started casting BW at GomTV. Same with when Artosis was covering courage tournaments. Is it just me? Right now they hardly even know who Larva is. These guys used to have more background info than was available via TL, now they don't even bother to do their homework. They're ASL's main English casters... Ha...
I sincerely hope they stop riding so much on their former success. There are much better BW casters out there with way less experience, it's really sad to see.
When SCR first came out they couldn't stop talking about how amazing the "new" bio into mech transition was in TvZ despite it having been part of the meta's for years. So doesn't really surprise they don't bother doing any more research. People will hype them regardless of the effort they put in.
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On December 05 2017 02:43 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 02:15 GoShox wrote:On December 05 2017 00:14 TT1 wrote:On December 04 2017 23:58 MymSlorm wrote:
everything was good, except commentary during games because they were more about like telling jokes to each other, than actually caring about the games being played, i watched JimRising's stream instead during the games. what i really liked were the interviews, and the silly games between each series The odds of us having a big BW tourney without casters like Artosis/Day9/iNcontroL/Tasteless is very unlikely. Organizers won't invest money into a game if there's no big draw (unless Blizzard steps in and starts pumping money into the scene). As entertaining as the casters were, I don't think we're going to keep getting BW events if we can only average a few thousand viewers throughout the entire tournament :/ The launch event did extremely well in terms of viewership and there was probably a lot of hope that this tournament could reach those numbers but unfortunately that did not happen. They're lucky to have had thousands of viewers throughout the entire tournament to be honest. From the way they advertised this event, to not knowing who is participating or getting substituted, the white noise issues, the player hotkey issues, the way it took over an hour to start on day 1, the stream dying numerous times, etc.
I think 10k viewers is a very attainable number for events with big name casters. The viewer count dipped because the stream kept discing and it was like 4am in EU. Of course this is only assuming the game keeps growing, it'll come down to how well Blizzard manages BW and the future patches.
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EPT
