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On June 13 2017 02:36 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 02:33 Sero wrote:On June 13 2017 01:18 supernovamaniac wrote:
If anyone wonders why foreigners can't play at Korean levels or at least come close, direct them to this thread and show them the foreigner's mentality at this game.
Also, people should stop using the term "foreign pros", this is anything but "professional" mindset that any pro players should have. Yes, poor mindset is the reason foreigners aren't at the same level as Korean pros. Not the decade of competitive training environments with full time organized practice and coaching. Will you be winning the next tournament with your superior mentality, SNM? but scan never was a pro? As in he never benefited from the organized environment and still is way above other foreigners which started the whole debate.
A-team pros aren't the only ones who benefitted from Korea's professional Starcraft scene. The A team players trained with B teamers and practice partners who also played on the Korean public servers. A much larger active player base and shared knowledge about the game is a completely different environment from the foreign scene which has been stagnant. Semi-pros on Fish have been practicing for years and refining their strategies and mechanics while top foreigners switched to SC2 or can't find games on iCCup and go inactive, and until recently had to reference builds from inaccurate Liquipedia articles copied from a 360p livestream 10 years ago.
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How come noobs who didnt achieve anything in bw try to judge way better players, players who are in the scene for years. Why do you people express your bullshit here about foreigners compared to koreans, why they suck, "get better". Just please keep your mouth closed if you know a shit about this... The army of internet forum trolls, who know literally zero about this game.
Me complaining? Heard about critism which comes from the fact that it's getting worse and worse?
Moving it to 1.18 would definetely help since blizzard almost forced everyone to play there.
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LOL I think saying a few players salty mentality is the reason Foreign != Korea is a bit drastic. No one in the right mind should make that 1 to 1 allusion. I would say it definitely doesn't help though.
As for 1.18:
I'm going to make the new ruleset for 1.18 tonight. If people are down to move to 1.18 we can do it this weekend or next.
Keep in mind a few things:
- Server would have to be like US-West/US-East for a meeting point between EU and Korea, while this sounds awful, the server selection is ONLY to make a game. Once you're in game it's purely Peer2Peer and that server doesn't matter (If i've been told correctly.
- Some people are having many problems with 1.18 still so we may have complaints of bugs/problems. Not sure how this will be handled.
- If I'm moving to 1.18, i'm definitely going to try live-casting each series since the net-code is a bit more stable.
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I agree with Trutacz, if you're not a competitive player don't try and make this some sort of "this is why you people will never be good" kind of argument.
That's why I'm more saying "This is why people don't want to host tournaments" as opposed to even touching the korea vs foreign argument.
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On June 13 2017 02:39 ldv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 02:33 Sero wrote:On June 13 2017 01:18 supernovamaniac wrote:
If anyone wonders why foreigners can't play at Korean levels or at least come close, direct them to this thread and show them the foreigner's mentality at this game.
Also, people should stop using the term "foreign pros", this is anything but "professional" mindset that any pro players should have. Yes, poor mindset is the reason foreigners aren't at the same level as Korean pros. Not the decade of competitive training environments with full time organized practice and coaching. Will you be winning the next tournament with your superior mentality, SNM? Mentality is as critical to performance as mechanics and strategy. Top level foreigners lack all three. A competitive environment, full time practice, coaching, these things only benefit people with strong mentality. Otherwise IdrA would have succeeded in Korea.
If top foreigners lack all three, then improving mentality won't cause them to suddenly beat Koreans. The superior mechanics and strategy are the problem. A competitive, full time practice environment with coaches would benefit everyone, and IdrA is no exception. He became much better after training in Korea.
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On June 13 2017 03:30 Sero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 02:39 ldv wrote:On June 13 2017 02:33 Sero wrote:On June 13 2017 01:18 supernovamaniac wrote:
If anyone wonders why foreigners can't play at Korean levels or at least come close, direct them to this thread and show them the foreigner's mentality at this game.
Also, people should stop using the term "foreign pros", this is anything but "professional" mindset that any pro players should have. Yes, poor mindset is the reason foreigners aren't at the same level as Korean pros. Not the decade of competitive training environments with full time organized practice and coaching. Will you be winning the next tournament with your superior mentality, SNM? Mentality is as critical to performance as mechanics and strategy. Top level foreigners lack all three. A competitive environment, full time practice, coaching, these things only benefit people with strong mentality. Otherwise IdrA would have succeeded in Korea. If top foreigners lack all three, then improving mentality won't cause them to suddenly beat Koreans. The superior mechanics and strategy are the problem. A competitive, full time practice environment with coaches would benefit everyone, and IdrA is no exception. He became much better after training in Korea.
Scan had none of these things, so why are trutacz and eonzerg constantly bitching about having to play someone who never had a competitive full time practice environment with coaches? They've had the exact same access to that kind of stuff he has. The foreigner SCENE will never improve because the foreigner SCENE cries about better players than them not being banned from tournaments they want to win.
If these tournaments were foreigner only, should we ban Bonyth if he wins the first one? The second one? Should we just ban all the winners so the losers can feel better about themselves?
This whole situation is so childish.
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Jesus shut the fuck up, just go away from here, you are either retarded or just troll. Stop talking about something u dont know. And i have never been bitching about competing against Scan.
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If you do not play in this tournament, and you are not a person who's actively contributing to it, or others like it. Please do not come in here and start fights, continue arguments.
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On June 13 2017 01:49 FilthyRake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 01:48 GeckoXp wrote:
I'm not quite sure what to make of this or any kind of criticism is welcome anymore. constructive criticism is always welcome. However, constant harassment and refusal to accept decisions once they've been made isnt.
I'm not quite sure what you expected and I really don't know how to phrase it nicely. Imagine you're a veteran of the scene and care mostly about playing against people, regradless of the rank. Surrounding you are a majority of people who are anything, but active players anymore, but have strong opinions based on watching Korean BW from afar. This is basically the Teamliquid user base in a nutshell. To make matters more complicated, a minority of the posters have a non-BW background and constantly compare other titles (you don't follow) to BW.
To be honest, my first impression of you guys was just like that, not that it would be inherently bad, after all, you tried something out. I was somewhat set back by the only few VODs I saw done by you (I assume, I constantly mix you up with the other guy), as you were mildly bashing on ICCup, while not knowing much of the background.
Thing is, foreigner BW players mind their own business and therefore developed a certain culture. Gratitude is expressed differently and often comes across as stoic and non-saying. I'm rather sure that taCz and eon approached you with well-meant criticism in the past, judging from my experience with them. Mind you, not everyone is a native speaker and grew up in a time in which the internet didn't have a lot of "social justice" rules. Therefore, what's been said often comes across quite harsh in the BW scene, yet it works: see defiler.ru, no moderation at all, yet not much drama compared to this board where generations clash all the time.
What you probably don't know is that nobody really hates on Scan for being "just" good. Scan behaved like a total dick in his first days and all of us were around. He was really a huge pain in the ass. At some point he got more mature and nowadays is a very valueable member of the community. It's still sometimes hard to forget, especially when he goes on a rampage in tours.
What you also don't know is the bad history foreigners had with Korean no-names in the past seven years. Half of them came, behaved like huge jackasses, and won tournaments (see Defiler -> Anfod). Others came and won, due to using hack (see Defiler -> Neagle).
These two circumstances combined make up for a lot of complaints, most of them are justified to a certain extent. The question you faced is whether or not to allow Scan. That's legit. To be honest, I dislike the idea of throwing him out, but I probably would do it, just to make it more level for anyone.
Having Scan in while stating "just train more" is a straight up insult, both to Scan and the others. Those guys play hardball for a long time and can take on some of the better Korean amateurs. Yet Scan is beyond the ordinary Korean level, as shown by the scores of SonStar et al.: nowhere near Scan. Those are beatable, even tho nobody likes a Korean flamer around, who has no connection to this scene at all.
It took Scan more than five years non-stop training to come where he is now, probably having a better supporting structure. Respect to achieve that, but in reality not doable for any other foreigner. Don't forget that Scan was already very close to the international top circle before the SCII Beta hit, so it wasn't a "from 0 to hero" kind of story.
Alternatives, as giving out handicaps, are bullcrap too. Nobody wants to get smashed by someone only playing half assed.
This all hits you harder than other organizers, because you have no ground to stand on, and, as eon pointed out, are quite taken away by criticism. The reaction of other organizers, such as RUS_Brain were simpler: "organize your own tournament or stick to my rules". Seems harsh, but works.
Since you don't really now much about the scene, I don't get why you wouldn't even consider to change the rules. It's not as if you lose street credibility, or as if anyone here honestly hates you, or even thinks you're an idiot. Trust me, real criticism intented to have you gone looks different. A lot different.
I think more crucial to people not showing up are other factors, more important ones. For instance using a third party page, that looks odd. Never had any experience using something different from what everyone else uses.
However, using the super late time zones of the US West is quite crucial. The strongest player base of foreigners is Poland + Russia. Setting the tour start quite late isn't really motivating to play, especially if the next day is a working day.
Not changing the maps frequently also adds to some form of discomfort.
Last but not least: The community is really small, I don't think you can keep numbers above 30 entrants at all times for a weekly series, especially as the yellow ranks usually don't play if there are no special incentives, such as "random 5$ prize", super wonky fun maps in between, doulbe elimination, or god knows what. And even those are not that motivating.
If this tour series was bi-weekly or even monthly, you might have had a higher turn out, simply due to having a more exclusive character. Maybe with smaller qualifiers for the monthly pay out or something.
When it comes to help from within the community: At some point one of you mentioned tracking down Korean smurfs. Not sure how hard that is in SCII, but it's really easy in BW. They don't speak English quite as well as the rest. If that doesn't help: if you already use ICCup go and ask the admins to check the list. They do this shit for free and are helpful if they're not being blamed for any nonsense along the way.
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Yeah... I never said or did like... anything you've said above. Guessing you're confusing me with Schamtoo, or someone else?
But, just in case I wasnt clear:
The damage is done. July 2nd will be the last filthy cup. I am not going to run more of these for the BW scene, because the foreign BW scene is too much trouble to be worth it for me anymore.
Dont like it? I dont really care anymore. You guys took my money AND gave me shit. So, as politely as I can, you can all "bugger off"
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Way to represent foreign BW community by being jackasses and running away the first consistent tournaments/prizes we've had in a while guys. I rarely read these topics because they are filled with such idiocy and I know I have nothing valuable to contribute but I just want to say I'm literally embarrassed to be part of the BW community.
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=_= Sad day for the BW scene. I feel like any person who has done anything in this scene can relate to how FilthyRake feels about it, in one way or another. I know that I can't change anything alone, I just hope that this is a learning experience for everyone and we can combine to do better in the future, even if it just means silent disapproval from the dissidents and more loud cheering from the supporters. We can't afford to push people away, not in real life and not in this community. As always, I want to wish Filthy the best of luck in his future ventures and send all my love and appreciation his way for holding on this long.
Long live Brood War.
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rip! another one bites the dust, I've never really been in it for the money as much as I always just like to see quality games and casts, too bad this lovely game's community is plagued with disagreement, that must've festered with age.
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Germany3128 Posts
On June 13 2017 05:03 Jealous wrote:
=_= Sad day for the BW scene. I feel like any person who has done anything in this scene can relate to how FilthyRake feels about it, in one way or another. I know that I can't change anything alone, I just hope that this is a learning experience for everyone and we can combine to do better in the future, even if it just means silent disapproval from the dissidents and more loud cheering from the supporters. We can't afford to push people away, not in real life and not in this community. As always, I want to wish Filthy the best of luck in his future ventures and send all my love and appreciation his way for holding on this long.
Long live Brood War.
It feels alot like what we've read in parts in the "What happened to Moletrap" thread. Casters and Content Creators doing it out of passion, getting close to no returns and still getting shit on all the times.
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Russian Federation372 Posts
On June 13 2017 04:56 FilthyRake wrote:
Yeah... I never said or did like... anything you've said above. Guessing you're confusing me with Schamtoo, or someone else?
But, just in case I wasnt clear:
The damage is done. July 2nd will be the last filthy cup. I am not going to run more of these for the BW scene, because the foreign BW scene is too much trouble to be worth it for me anymore.
Dont like it? I dont really care anymore. You guys took my money AND gave me shit. So, as politely as I can, you can all "bugger off"
I didn't took your money lol :D
I can say similar things to you too. You took my time to take part in your tourney and gave shit by stopping it, because i planned to win it soon, but now i can't lol :D
Fights between korean and foreigners skills were started centuries ago.
If you don't know how to ruin these fights, just ignore.
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It's still utterly confusing to me, this not wanting to play Scan. When pro's show up to big Colorado bike races I'm stoked to race them, even if I know I'm not likely to even sniff winning.
If I could play in tournies with FlaSh, Bisu, EffOrt all the time would I decline playing them? Hell no! In fact I'd be incredibly excited, and I'm a tenth of the player that a Bonyth or TrutacZ is. The mindset is alien to me. You've got the opportunity to play tours with highly talented players and many seem to decline, or even actively complain, about the situation?
It just seems to me that their is all upside and literally no downside to playing Scan or any other good player, outside of getting marginally less money, but is anyone here really that obsessed with $20-40 bucks? Perhaps the draw of money is what I can't figure out, but the whole situation is one I clearly don't relate to at all.
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On June 13 2017 05:03 Jealous wrote:
=_= Sad day for the BW scene. I feel like any person who has done anything in this scene can relate to how FilthyRake feels about it, in one way or another. I know that I can't change anything alone, I just hope that this is a learning experience for everyone and we can combine to do better in the future, even if it just means silent disapproval from the dissidents and more loud cheering from the supporters. We can't afford to push people away, not in real life and not in this community. As always, I want to wish Filthy the best of luck in his future ventures and send all my love and appreciation his way for holding on this long.
Long live Brood War.
Yeap.
Usually I'm pretty bullish and impressed by the "BW Community", but this tournament and the the recent Day[9] shitstorm have been pretty rough for me. It's wierd reconciling some of that with the generally highly supportive, passionate group of people everyone here tends to be.
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TLADT24920 Posts
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It seems like the complaining is due to greed and money. Why else would they not want Scan to participate?
Letting Scan participate in these tournaments just means the 'top foreigners' are playing for 2nd/3rd place prize money, as Scan will win the majority of the tournaments.
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On June 13 2017 05:48 L_Master wrote:
It's still utterly confusing to me, this not wanting to play Scan. When pro's show up to big Colorado bike races I'm stoked to race them, even if I know I'm not likely to even sniff winning.
If I could play in tournies with FlaSh, Bisu, EffOrt all the time would I decline playing them? Hell no! In fact I'd be incredibly excited, and I'm a tenth of the player that a Bonyth or TrutacZ is. The mindset is alien to me. You've got the opportunity to play tours with highly talented players and many seem to decline, or even actively complain, about the situation?
It just seems to me that their is all upside and literally no downside to playing Scan or any other good player, outside of getting marginally less money, but is anyone here really that obsessed with $20-40 bucks? Perhaps the draw of money is what I can't figure out, but the whole situation is one I clearly don't relate to at all.
If u could play a LOT of games, and still being just owned infinite times by X player, without chances to win, maybe ur mindset would be different?
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EPT
