On March 19 2017 20:01 gngfn wrote: Lineup looks good for Team Flash, although I feel a bit sorry for Rain that apparently Flash can play his race in 2v2 better than he can.
Unless they stated otherwise, I think it's more that FlashLast was their first 2v2 victory so why change it and they just happened to feel PZ was a better match up for them than TZ (or even RZ) vs TZ.
On March 19 2017 20:07 Piste wrote: Wait, Both Flash and Last are playing two games, so this means that if team Guemchi somehow takes it to Ace match Rain has to play??
On March 19 2017 20:17 [[Starlight]] wrote: Not sure why in the 2v2 Flash and Last are both off-racing, while Soulkey and Piano get to use their main races??
You need a Z in 2v2 no matter what or you basically lose, so someone on Team Flash has to offrace regardless. Flash might be playing instead of Rain because they were 2v2ing together on Flash's stream the other day and it was going pretty poorly. Or they just have some pocket strategy that they think will work against Soulkey and Piano for sure and Flash has practiced it more/has more confidence in his ability to execute it.
On March 19 2017 20:17 [[Starlight]] wrote: Not sure why in the 2v2 Flash and Last are both off-racing, while Soulkey and Piano get to use their main races??
You need a Z in 2v2 no matter what or you basically lose, so someone on Team Flash has to offrace regardless. Flash might be playing instead of Rain because they were 2v2ing together on Flash's stream the other day and it was going pretty poorly.
Or they just have some pocket strategy that they think will work against Soulkey and Piano for sure and Flash has practiced it more/has more confidence in his ability to execute it.
On March 19 2017 20:57 BisuDagger wrote: Rain failed to understand how a 2 gate opening works. What a terrible mess.
Was he trying to fake SK out or something? That was a trainwreck.
He completely misread his advantage. As soon as he saw the natural hatchery complete he should have sent his next two zealots. If soulkey sends his first 6 lings to counter attack then he loses. Guaranteed soulkey loses 4-5 probes and many lings if Rain had 3 zealots.
On March 19 2017 20:57 BisuDagger wrote: Rain failed to understand how a 2 gate opening works. What a terrible mess.
Was he trying to fake SK out or something? That was a trainwreck.
He completely misread his advantage. As soon as he saw the natural hatchery complete he should have sent his next two zealots. If soulkey sends his first 6 lings to counter attack then he loses. Guaranteed soulkey loses 4-5 probes and many lings if Rain had 3 zealots.
Of course, but Rain's a pro... it can't be that simple of a screwup, can it?
On March 19 2017 20:57 BisuDagger wrote: Rain failed to understand how a 2 gate opening works. What a terrible mess.
Was he trying to fake SK out or something? That was a trainwreck.
He completely misread his advantage. As soon as he saw the natural hatchery complete he should have sent his next two zealots. If soulkey sends his first 6 lings to counter attack then he loses. Guaranteed soulkey loses 4-5 probes and many lings if Rain had 3 zealots.
Of course, but Rain's a pro... it can't be that simple of a screwup, can it?
A lot of Protoss pros who came up after the ~Bisu build~ became a thing don't really know how to play 2 gate, and similarly at least at one time there were many Zerg players who didn't know how to counter it. The build had a resurgence in 2010 or so when someone picked up on this.
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
Their strat was FlaSh to fortify Last's base while Last's mass mutas run wild. Then with the map control, FlaSh techs to reavers so they're basically unstoppable except PianO and SoulKey happened.
edit - he was also flying his shuttle around, maybe he didn't get the opportunities
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
Piano's micro and maneuvering during the reaver vs bio battle was pretty masterful.
He should've gotten slaughtered, but instead he caused Flash to lose so many reavers that it put Flash/Last in a bad position. They were counting on winning the engagement handily and then pushing on to attack enemy base and do lots of damage.
If that had happened, then we'd be saying, "Wow, Flash's reaver strategy was so good."
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
Piano's micro during the reaver vs bio battle was pretty masterful.
He should've gotten slaughtered, but instead he caused Flash to lose so many reavers that it put Flash/Last in a bad position. They were counting on winning the engagement handily and then pushing on to attack enemy base.
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
Piano's micro and maneuvering during the reaver vs bio battle was pretty masterful.
He should've gotten slaughtered, but instead he caused Flash to lose so many reavers that it put Flash/Last in a bad position. They were counting on winning the engagement handily and then pushing on to attack enemy base and do lots of damage.
If that had happened, then we'd be saying, "Wow, Flash's reaver strategy was so good."
Yeah but it didn't happen because Flash misplayed it by not moving out at all until after Soulkey had Scourge.
On March 19 2017 21:20 gngfn wrote: I'm struggling to process how bad that was. Flash seriously couldn't think of anything to do while waiting for three Reavers to come out?
He built cannons and was flying his shuttle around.
He didn't fire a single scarab until he had three Reavers and two Shuttles. He basically took himself out of the game. If he was going to sit and tech why not go for Templar Archives? I don't understand at all.
Piano's micro during the reaver vs bio battle was pretty masterful.
He should've gotten slaughtered, but instead he caused Flash to lose so many reavers that it put Flash/Last in a bad position. They were counting on winning the engagement handily and then pushing on to attack enemy base.
Yeah that marine control was perfect!
Don't forget how SoulKey sniped those shuttles before the mutas arrived. And the burrowed lings that damaged the goons first.
I dont understand what was the best case scenario that piano was hoping to get with this build? Flash going 14cc? coz i dont see any other BO where this could've done something
On March 19 2017 21:53 [[Starlight]] wrote: So guys... what do you think Soulkey should try to do vs Flash??
he should try to win! -_-;;;
Was expecting more of a smartass "He should die to 5 rax +1".
It was tempting. >.<
If soulkey builds 12+ lings early with his mutas he can win this. If soulkey fails to make enough lings early he won't make it to the mid game where he can win.
here's that point of the game where even though zerg was able to survive everything and look solid, terran can out-expand zerg and also completely switch tech =\
On March 19 2017 22:34 classicyellow83 wrote: I see Flash losing to Soulkey this way many times during spon matches. Flash can't seem to beat him when it goes super late game.
At a certain point we stopped seeing Flash produce Sci Vessels, he'd lost his valks, and he wasn't producing much antiair. Soulkey then went wild with drops everywhere, it was harsh.
On March 19 2017 22:34 classicyellow83 wrote: I see Flash losing to Soulkey this way many times during spon matches. Flash can't seem to beat him when it goes super late game.
At a certain point we stopped seeing Flash produce Sci Vessels, he'd lost his valks, and he wasn't producing much antiair. Soulkey went wild with drops everywhere, it was harsh.
I think unless you have a cloud of vessels or valks, they are useless since they will be picked up by scourges. Incredible game by Soulkey
On March 19 2017 22:34 classicyellow83 wrote: I see Flash losing to Soulkey this way many times during spon matches. Flash can't seem to beat him when it goes super late game.
At a certain point we stopped seeing Flash produce Sci Vessels, he'd lost his valks, and he wasn't producing much antiair. Soulkey then went wild with drops everywhere, it was harsh.
I guess it was either Tanks or Vessels. He might ahve been short on gas
Zerg wins KCM Race Survival 3 times in a row. 3 Zergs in top 5 win rate for March so far(6 Zergs if you do top 10) . Soulkey beats Flash in Ace Match in the Finals. It's a good time to be a Zerg fan.
On March 19 2017 22:34 classicyellow83 wrote: I see Flash losing to Soulkey this way many times during spon matches. Flash can't seem to beat him when it goes super late game.
At a certain point we stopped seeing Flash produce Sci Vessels, he'd lost his valks, and he wasn't producing much antiair. Soulkey then went wild with drops everywhere, it was harsh.
I guess it was either Tanks or Vessels. He might ahve been short on gas
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates playing against him so much lol.
On March 19 2017 22:39 RealityIsKing wrote: Flash's mistake was switching to mech.
You switch to mech if you manage to kill the initial Mutalisks.
From watching zergs nowadays I think it doesn't really matter. Zergs tend to just lose them to vessels/valks later anyways because they can't keep up or have bad muta micro, but in this game man... Soulkey was everywhere, he controlled mutas very well, scourges always hit anti air, and those drops all over the place. Just incredible level of play in my opinion. Maybe he will be the one to stop Flash's and Last's TvZ.
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates him so much lol.
Never knew about that. I wonder what the story is.
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates him so much lol.
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates him so much lol.
wait whats the story with mini?
Flash picked mini as the most annoying player to play against because of mini's unconventional and harass heavy plays. He doesn't really hate him. They are friendly to each other when they are on discord.
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
On March 19 2017 22:24 Lucumo wrote: You guys realize Flash is sandbagging, right?
So either Flash sandbagged into losing or he actually played really badly. He was ahead pretty much all game, even ahead in bases against a Zerg.
These rules don't apply anymore. Zerg cannot get over 4 bases in a long time, and Terran needs to defend 3-4 positions at once. If he doesn't have enough defense everywhere, Zerg can snowball even with 4 bases because zerg units are way more efficient at low unit counts against mech.
Soulkey played extremely well, and engaged most of the time much more efficient than most zergs would do.
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates him so much lol.
wait whats the story with mini?
Flash picked mini as the most annoying player to play against because of mini's unconventional and harass heavy plays. He doesn't really hate him. They are friendly to each other when they are on discord.
by hate I don't actually mean hate, I should have said hates playing against him.
On March 19 2017 22:42 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Flash: "I always said that there's no one to pick during the group selection ceremony. I have someone now to pick."
he'll pick mini, if mini ever qualifies, Flash will pick mini, he hates him so much lol.
wait whats the story with mini?
Flash picked mini as the most annoying player to play against because of mini's unconventional and harass heavy plays. He doesn't really hate him. They are friendly to each other when they are on discord.
by hate I don't actually mean hate, I should have said hates playing against him.
What are you guys even saying, "mech switch cost him the game"... it put him into a position that was almost impossible to lose from. Soulkey just played extremely extremely well and then punished Flash for being careless with his valkyries.
That game would have been over much sooner if Flash tried to go SK terran after his failed 5 rax attack.
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
On March 19 2017 22:24 Lucumo wrote: You guys realize Flash is sandbagging, right?
So either Flash sandbagged into losing or he actually played really badly. He was ahead pretty much all game, even ahead in bases against a Zerg.
These rules don't apply anymore. Zerg cannot get over 4 bases in a long time, and Terran needs to defend 3-4 positions at once. If he doesn't have enough defense everywhere, Zerg can snowball even with 4 bases because zerg units are way more efficient at low unit counts against mech.
Soulkey played extremely well, and engaged most of the time much more efficient than most zergs would do.
Flash also seemed to have a lot of 'naked tank' positions all over the map, i.e. not much vulture or antiair support, especially in the last 10 minutes.
So then the tanks get crackling/ultra dropped, or crack-rushed via a nice dark swarm and the trade is overwhelmingly pro-Zerg $$$-wise.
And SK didn't just win the engagements, he forced them, repeatedly, all over the place, knowing that was draining Flash. And that Flash couldn't defend well everywhere.
On March 19 2017 22:24 Lucumo wrote: You guys realize Flash is sandbagging, right?
So either Flash sandbagged into losing or he actually played really badly. He was ahead pretty much all game, even ahead in bases against a Zerg.
These rules don't apply anymore. Zerg cannot get over 4 bases in a long time, and Terran needs to defend 3-4 positions at once. If he doesn't have enough defense everywhere, Zerg can snowball even with 4 bases because zerg units are way more efficient at low unit counts against mech.
Soulkey played extremely well, and engaged most of the time much more efficient than most zergs would do.
No, Flash was suiciding units (tank only attacks) etc which looked like sandbagging to give the people a better game. Tanks + Goliaths + Vultures would have won him the game. He also could have pressured more but he left SK alone for a while to build more bases which also led me to believe he doesn't want it to end early.
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
^ Well he sometimes goes 2star and delays the mech switch for a while, giving him more pressure. Btw I think left vs right split on CB makes it much easier for Zerg to stretch Terran out compared to top vs bottom split
On March 19 2017 22:24 Lucumo wrote: You guys realize Flash is sandbagging, right?
So either Flash sandbagged into losing or he actually played really badly. He was ahead pretty much all game, even ahead in bases against a Zerg.
These rules don't apply anymore. Zerg cannot get over 4 bases in a long time, and Terran needs to defend 3-4 positions at once. If he doesn't have enough defense everywhere, Zerg can snowball even with 4 bases because zerg units are way more efficient at low unit counts against mech.
Soulkey played extremely well, and engaged most of the time much more efficient than most zergs would do.
No, Flash was suiciding units (tank only attacks) etc which looked like sandbagging to give the people a better game. Tanks + Goliaths + Vultures would have won him the game. He also could have pressured more but he left SK alone for a while to build more bases which also led me to believe he doesn't want it to end early.
At no time Flash could have moved out when he had all bases to defend.
Flash's unit composition in his groups felt wonky as the game dragged on, like his stagger timing on production was missing beats.
But what a game out of soulkey, his mechanics and his composure were fucking perfect from minute 1 until the end. Keeping up with dark swarm casts on the bottom right corner expo, the precision of their usage during the final gigantic siege of the high ground outside his natural, as well as the constant filling of overlords is something you just don't see out of zergs. You even had two occasions on the 9 o'clock where Soulkey flat out outsmarted Flash: the drone transition with the ling runby to keep them out of Flash's vision range and the Overlord flyby at a later defense of the 9 o'clock where Flash just assumed it was going to be a standard flyby with the purpose of impairing his vision and instead ended up being a drop exactly as he started to leapfrog.
The key to lategame ZvT I have been believing for years lies in quick switches between mutas and scourges to flood Terran's supply count with units that don't do enough for them. This game I felt pretty validated outside of the final Muta wave doing 5 dmg per shot to Flash's 3/3 goliaths...
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
What is his hybrid late game style?
Basically instead of going full mech switch, do a mech switch but keep your 5 rax and still mass some bio. Great against zerglings.
On March 20 2017 01:15 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Soulkey is watching/analyzing the game on his stream now
He has 5765 viewers right now! Usually SK dont have more than 50 like. I am so happy for him ^_^
I wonder if those 3 overlords that got irridated was empty or not. Anyone knows what he said about that?
The level of Soulkeys game today made me remember his lategame against terrans back in the day. I remember a game against Fantasy where he lost his main, but manage to come back with the sickest anti.mech play. Pretty reminicent of his style today, with the drops and all. For a time Mech was unbeatable back in 2010 because as a new strategy zergs struggled to find solutions, but Zero and Soulkey developed the strategies and tactics to fix it. Those were the days!
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
What is his hybrid late game style?
Basically instead of going full mech switch, do a mech switch but keep your 5 rax and still mass some bio. Great against zerglings.
ok just saw the game,flash actually took 5 bases with bio and some mine vultures,his mech transition was late,but there is a big problem with flash build,he made an early push with like 8 marines 2 medics,then 2 firebats,he allowed soulkey to scout his main,he made 4 firebats in total,his +1 attack was very very delayed,he made 5 rax with no upgrades,this is a big deal,late tech,no tank pressure,no drops,he killed some drones at the third,like 4 5 drones,that expansion wasnt working when the vultures run in.for some reason he couldnt save the vessels,as a terran player u want to have 6-7 vessels,otherwise u cant play without goliaths like he did.in theory FlaSh is the camp master and father of turrets,the lack of turrets let soulkey drop when he wanted.now the biggest problem i see.Flash was playing like a zerg player trying to take down expansions with minor forces and in some cases lossing 10 tanks for free,everytime soulkey decided to attack with lings there was not opisition,no enough mines,no vultures,soulkey played this game with a minimum of gaz invest in lurkers defilers,he was mostly playing mass drop lings and maybe 1 lurk in overlord,but mostly cleaning flashs army with lings,he was in 4 gazes+ 2 minerals only,he was ok with minerals.i can actually say soulkey was in a good position to the lategame,but then flash took 5 expos right away,this is pretty scary,but flash was very very very agresive,usually u force the zerg to trade all the bad possible,in this case flash was donating over and over.and yeah soulkey was pretty good with mutas,they were always in the right position doing the right thing.
The 3 ols were loaded. And he said when he found 3 lings killed a scv buliding base at 5:30 with 2 attacks, he realized he forgot to upgrade "Adrenal Glands".
Honestly I think Flash biggest mistake was to underestimate Soulkey and his engages. Soulkey is so much more composed compared to the likes of Larva, hence Flash did things which may only work against Larva. I guess Flash should stop practicing with him.
On March 20 2017 02:11 sc19980331 wrote: The 3 ols were loaded. And he said when he found 3 lings killed a scv buliding base at 5:30 with 2 attacks, he realized he forgot to upgrade "Adrenal Glands".
We can really say that Soulkey took his first BW championship. Those ling, ultra drops with swarm engagements almost gave me chills. That's how you play zerg.
Flash went two rax earlier with failed pressure instead of gas fast +1. +1 rines kill muta timings so much better imo and is the true Flash build. Flash chose to be aggressive because of close spawn and failed.
Looking back: FlaSh went 2 rax aggro into 5 rax. his +1 is going to be delayed which is why he had so much trouble in the early game. also when soulkey went for that early ling runby, flash's medic was in his mineral line, not out at the front, would have made a huge difference and would allow him to fend off the attack. also gdi flash fucking put a supply depot at the front to close your choke more.
also those mutas were the mvp of the game, i think they killed like 20 tanks by themselves, it was disgusting. just make some more goliaths or remake a couple of vessels. those valks did nothing
soulkey played a great game though. i feel like flash might want to try more old school with mnm vessel while slowly building up a huge tank force. mnm is just so good against lings and those swarms did a ton for soulkey.
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
What is his hybrid late game style?
Basically instead of going full mech switch, do a mech switch but keep your 5 rax and still mass some bio. Great against zerglings.
Isn't there a simcity problem by doing that? Like, in what maps does your main allow you to have what, 9 production buildings? Are you supposed to build factories in wall-in spots at your natural?
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
What is his hybrid late game style?
Basically instead of going full mech switch, do a mech switch but keep your 5 rax and still mass some bio. Great against zerglings.
Isn't there a simcity problem by doing that? Like, in what maps does your main allow you to have what, 9 production buildings? Are you supposed to build factories in wall-in spots at your natural?
typically you add like another 2-4 factories at the other main or wherever your other gas bases are
Really entertaining final set! Nice to hear Afreeca and the sponsor, Dabang, talking about future team events.
Unsung hero in PianO, alongside Soulkey, going 5-0 in 2v2 matches. While team captain GuemChi only managed a 2-3 record, his teammates carried the day, going 9-1 and 7-3.
God that last game was amazing, I was so sure that Flash had it since he was at least a base up on Soulkey for the first half of the game or so.
His mech army seemed to be way to tank heavy and clumped up.
A part of me want to say that he seemed to try and do to much but he was effectively denying the 9 o'clock constantly and that was the only clear thing he really did.
Maybe he didn't have a good plan for anything else which is why it seemed like he was everywhere doing everything but no real focus beyond that?
I don't see enough people talk about what absolutely insane dark swarms Soulkey had all over the place, the multitasking and precision to get them down like that had me just gasping with awe.
The narrow narrow hold of the 3rd by Soulkey had my heart racing, god, what a game. Soulkey played sick all day, his comeback in the 2v2 was crazy as well.
I do agree that it felt a bit like Flash was trying for a longer game to make it more exciting, but I don't know. His composition felt weird. I don't think that was actually the case, but it did feel a bit like that.
Watched the game again today, just so good. So happy we have a zerg who can match late game terrans, and against flash of all people. Fuck yeah soulkey, zergs that are good against terrans are always fascinating to watch, hopefully jaedong can catchup but I knew soulkey wouldn't go down easily. I always thought mutas could still be good against late game terran because of all the tanks, and the vessels + goliaths are not enough to counter sneaky mutalisks trying to snipe tanks I think. Soulkey played this perfectly well by really using everything that makes it so hard for a terran to play against in the late game. The overlords floating threatening a drop using advantage of the immobility of a terran's mech army, attacking the other bases in the opposite side of the map at the same time, goddamn defilers + cracklings and ultra everywhere just wrecking havoc on those tanks, so hard for a terran to defend and take the right decisions in those situations. So beautiful and those moments really make a game like bw shine above any other game in my opinion. I was really hoping to see a zerg succeeding against terrans, I wasn't expecting it to be in a finals against flash! Awesome stuff :D
On March 19 2017 22:39 mdb wrote: that switch to mech cost flash the game
True. if it's FS and late mech switch, zerg won't win. 5 gas T mech vs 5 gas zerg is not the same as 5 gas + 2 mineral expo mech vs 5 gas + 2 mineral expo zerg
I've been repeating about this on my live stream channel, but they won't know. xD I hope they can realize this later in the future.
Would you agree that Last's hybrid lategame style is more stable on CB than Flash's hard mech switch?
What is his hybrid late game style?
Basically instead of going full mech switch, do a mech switch but keep your 5 rax and still mass some bio. Great against zerglings.
Isn't there a simcity problem by doing that? Like, in what maps does your main allow you to have what, 9 production buildings? Are you supposed to build factories in wall-in spots at your natural?
typically you add like another 2-4 factories at the other main or wherever your other gas bases are
last built his factories right outside his FE in front of the two bridges on CB. plenty of room there.
Just got around to watching the games. Pretty entertaining overall and dang, way to go Soulkey! I didn't think anyone would be able to take down Flash late game. My only complaint or rather observation is that I thought Flash played a little less characteristically like himself. He made mnm micro mistakes that felt a bit off and it was odd to see him kinda skimp out on AA. I mean, sure, the valks were a nice addition but they didn't do squat.
Another example is when he tried to attack Soulkey's mineral only at the 7 o'clock position. He walked right into a dark swarm and lost so many tanks to zerglings and ultras; 15 at least. Like, if he didn't keep up with his macro, Soulkey could've taken that game earlier because Flash made lots of those kind of mistakes. He did a great job denying the 9 o'clock base but then he'll have patches of tanks with no mines or vultures or AA around.
Soulkey played it really well so credits to him. The constant drops and aggression+dark swarm use etc... really helped him overcome Flash. I do hope he grows to become a fantastic ZvT player regardless of the stage of the game because the scene really needs someone who can beat Terrans of Flash and Last's caliber. Jaedong seems to still be struggling, ZerO is going to the army and hero isn't doing that well in ZvT. Maybe when Killer comes back, he'll have a chance but it'll take a long while before he gets to the same level he was before.
I literally just watched the vod from a hospital bed. I went in for heart problems and the finals match almost pushed my heart disease into a full blown heart attack.
On March 20 2017 19:14 SCC-Faust wrote: I literally just watched the vod from a hospital bed. I went in for heart problems and the finals match almost pushed my heart disease into a full blown heart attack.
On March 20 2017 19:14 SCC-Faust wrote: I literally just watched the vod from a hospital bed. I went in for heart problems and the finals match almost pushed my heart disease into a full blown heart attack.
Wtf really? :O You alright?
Yes. I live another day. Have Ehlers Danlos syndrome. Life is hard.
On March 20 2017 19:14 SCC-Faust wrote: I literally just watched the vod from a hospital bed. I went in for heart problems and the finals match almost pushed my heart disease into a full blown heart attack.
Wtf really? :O You alright?
Yes. I live another day. Have Ehlers Danlos syndrome. Life is hard.
I just took the time to read about it, that sucks man, really feel bad for you, I do hope you are able to find solace somehow by doing things you like, like watching awesome bw games. Brood war is too exciting
HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
I've never seen another Zerg constantly microing little groups of units all over the map, trading efficiently the majority of the time. He also always looks very relaxed which is why his play is super clean.
On March 20 2017 22:35 HaN- wrote: Soulkey is the god of multitask and drop play.
I've never seen another Zerg constantly microing little groups of units all over the map, trading efficiently the majority of the time. He also always looks very relaxed which is why his play is super clean.
On March 20 2017 22:35 HaN- wrote: Soulkey is the god of multitask and drop play.
I've never seen another Zerg constantly microing little groups of units all over the map, trading efficiently the majority of the time. He also always looks very relaxed which is why his play is super clean.
Sadly this is how killer looked before he went into service. As someone mentioned earlier, if he can return to his form then he will also be a real ZvT threat.
On March 20 2017 22:21 Dante08 wrote: HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
Really?
I thought he had the game in bag after Flash couldn't deny his third and kill off the initial Mutalisks.
On March 20 2017 22:21 Dante08 wrote: HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
Really?
I thought he had the game in bag after Flash couldn't deny his third and kill off the initial Mutalisks.
I don't believe you. You thought Soulkey had it in the bag because he defended his third?
On March 20 2017 22:21 Dante08 wrote: HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
Really?
I thought he had the game in bag after Flash couldn't deny his third and kill off the initial Mutalisks.
Not sure if we are watching the same game. Flash was up 5-6 bases to SK's 4 for a long time and denied his 9 o'clock expo for 3-4 times. He also repeatedly killed OLs which were full of units. At no point did SK have it in the bag.
On March 20 2017 22:21 Dante08 wrote: HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
Really?
I thought he had the game in bag after Flash couldn't deny his third and kill off the initial Mutalisks.
Im wondering what the % chance to win a TvZ game is after Zergs defend their 3rd. You really think it's like 80% to say "oh yeah he had it in the bag"
Props to SoulKey! I thought Flash would win when it was 5-base T vs 4-base Z and Flash had accumulated enough tanks for a doom push on the high ground in the lower left. When that push was dismantled, SoulKey had an opening to win and played brilliantly.
Also, his muta micro in the earlier stages was excellent, and he kept effectively using his mutalisks for the duration of the game. Impressive.
Not sure if I've ever cheered against Flash before, but I didn't mind seeing SoulKey beat him with such good Zerg play. I like SoulKey's surgical drop style against late mech. He's one of the best players (if not the best) at making sure that at least a single lurker burrows under at least a single dark swarm at multiple Terran mining bases simultaneously. When that happens the Terran is paralyzed and the Zerg can regain some much needed map control.
On March 20 2017 22:21 Dante08 wrote: HOLY SHIT I just watched the vods and what a comeback by SoulKey. I was sure he was dead for at least 5 times throughout the whole match and somehow he stayed patient and managed to come back. I don't even feel sad as a Flash fan. What a game!
Really?
I thought he had the game in bag after Flash couldn't deny his third and kill off the initial Mutalisks.
Not sure if we are watching the same game. Flash was up 5-6 bases to SK's 4 for a long time and denied his 9 o'clock expo for 3-4 times. He also repeatedly killed OLs which were full of units. At no point did SK have it in the bag.
But Flash spreaded so thin though.
Flash was constantly attacking and everytime his troops went out, he had unfavorable trade.
SK's 4 base macro kicked in before Flash's 6 did and because of Flash utilizing those resources to set up infrastructure, there were numerous time he got demolished when he went out.
- Flash was up 5 base vs 4 base for a long time. In TvZ you know you are in trouble if T has more bases than you. - Even after securing his 3rd base SK lost all his drones to a 3 vult runby delayed his gas significantly - I watch Flash's stream alot and he almost never loses once he gets into a leading position like the one similar to that game. Most Zergs would have lost in SK's position.
I think you're failing to give Soulkey enough credit for what is an amazing comeback (and yes Flash could have dealt with the mutas better).
Flash wasn't perfect, but this game was an example of how ZvT late game is very doable on most maps. It's really FS that causes the problems balance-wise. As LastScan noted, when Z has the extra mineral bases on Circuit Breaker, that makes a huge difference.
It's ironic that extra mineral bases are what help Zerg, since usually Zerg thirsts for gas. However, in late game, extra minerals for Zerg literally just means extra Hatcheries plus infinity Zerglings, which can mostly be A-moved wildly. Compare to Terran, for whom extra minerals means extra Vultures and Turrets, both of which are awesome, but take a lot more work to get value out of. Also, Terran can still be gas-starved even on 5 gas, which is why you don't see Terrans making big Vessel clouds when going mech.
Zergs will continue to improve against late game mech, and I think as long as big 4 player maps have the extra mineral bases like CB, late game ZvT will be pretty balanced. Even though Flash was far from perfect, did it really look like Terran was OP in that late game? Zerg's the side that can just throw a wave of Zerglings, threaten drops, throw up Dark Swarms, etc., constantly.
The issue with TvZ right now is not that any individual part of it is that imbalanced. Rather, it's the combination of how hard it is to take a 3rd, and that late game mech is tough (whereas late game SK Terran vs Zerg before mech got popular was probably Zerg favored). Also Terrans got good at countering 2 Hatch Muta years ago, which has mostly taken that out of the toolbox for Zerg. For awhile 2 Hatch Muta was a big time equalizer.
As with most aspects of BW, it just comes down to maps. There is no shortage of ways to make interesting maps that aren't out of the norm compared to historical maps, and would make ZvT perfectly fine to play.
I agree with almost everything you said except the late game mech/SK Terran thing. Late mech is only tough on specific maps (cough FS cough) and also positions (CB bottom vs top split is much harder than left vs right as you can actually create a defensive line which covers your bases perfectly minus drops, while left vs right forces Terran to be very aggressive which is generally harder with mech). Also SK Terran never really made late game zerg favored, that impression might have stayed because late mech was introduced immediately after swarm season (which was a result of ZvP, maps, 2hatch muta and mech openings being overused, not really late game ZvT)
On March 22 2017 01:37 ortseam wrote: I agree with almost everything you said except the late game mech/SK Terran thing. Late mech is only tough on specific maps (cough FS cough) and also positions (CB bottom vs top split is much harder than left vs right as you can actually create a defensive line which covers your bases perfectly minus drops, while left vs right forces Terran to be very aggressive which is generally harder with mech). Also SK Terran never really made late game zerg favored, that impression might have stayed because late mech was introduced immediately after swarm season (which was a result of ZvP, maps, 2hatch muta and mech openings being overused, not really late game ZvT)
I think his point about SK Terran and being zerg favoured late game was because zerg players have become so good at using defilers and dark swarm that SK Terran just doesn't cut it anymore. I can't remember who said this but one of the pros mentioned the above statement (first part).
Yeah it was Sea, he has also said late mech favors Terran, but all this really depends on the map imo (e.g. it's true on FS from both sides). It's probably true at the highest level if Terran completely neglects tanks/mines and tries to play like Nada, I agree with that.
I don't think it is late game that favours anyone really, it is the difficulty of securing a third which gives Terran easy wins (along with sunken timings) with absolutely no risk taken, while it is virtually impossible (or at least much much more difficult) before late game for the Zerg to kill Terran without taking tremendous all-or-nothing risks (Lurker busts, pure Muta, mass Lings etc.).
Amazing game. After vultures run-by and killed the drones at 3-rd I thought it's over. Overall I always felt like Flash has this until like 2 minutes before the end. Flash concentrated more on macro, sacrificing some of the efforts for micro (you can't have infinite APM), while SK managed to do some miracles.
Just a quick not for liquipedia mods: Can we add "Accomplishments" table for those guys who won this event? None of them have it (only Piano with some minor wins), it will be nice them finally to get an achievement. I would do it on my own but I'm not good at creating tables etc.
I thought that Flash had it when he killed drones at 3rd while he safely took the upper right bases. But then Soulkey played amazingly chipping away Flash forces all over the map. As a Terran player it was frustrating to see mutas doing so much damage. Once the late game kicked in, I felt Flash was constantly on the back foot as Soulkey was fantastic with his multitasking winning all the small skirmishes all over the map and constantly keeping Flash's tank count low.
After watching yesterday games I recalled there is a mistake on page I posted link to, there should be written:
Team GuemChi Soulkey
I think you're joking - but what makes you think that is a mistake? Btw, you can login to Liquipedia with ur TL account and submit changes and give a description of your edit, so there is no real need to bump threads concerning Liquipedia.
EPT
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Last <Fighting Spirit> 
GuemChi
Soulkey![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kHmF2Xx.png)
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JimRising ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/pl.png)
Arek ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ru.png)
romarior
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5-0 in 2v2 matches
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