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On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 23:09 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 22:19 r33k wrote:On December 05 2016 21:37 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 21:37 r33k wrote:On December 05 2016 21:32 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 21:31 FlaShFTW wrote:
effort in a super slump now. effort has always been overrated, so... Except he's been better than Jaedong for more than half of his career so... Define better. Superior, more skilled. Not carried by momentum. No and no. And no. Have you seen Jaedong in his prime. The victories he achieved, playing from behind. Jaedong was definitely not a momentum based player. He was a player to fight to the bitter end. I would argue that Effort's win over Flash in the finals was quite a bit momentum-carried as well, after he caught a lucky strike with the early zergling agression. Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special.
Effort 2010 vs T - 44%
Jaedong 2010 vs T - 57% (most of these games were against flash & light)
Effort didn't play the majority of 2011 (retired)
Jaedong 2011 vs T - 26-6 81%
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Light's build in the last game was beautiful. It's really neat that we can still see carefully planned builds win games.
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On December 06 2016 08:26 Vivi57 wrote:
Light's build in the last game was beautiful. It's really neat that we can still see carefully planned builds win games.
Light said during the interview that he had another build prepared for last game but he changed it b/c he saw how well effort played against rain and he felt that he would lose with the build he prepared.
"So I decided to use the build made by Flash, the greatest player of all time, and it went well."
After seeing this interview Flash he was very flattered but, said that he didn't create that build. It was actually ForGG who created it. Flash was the first one to use it on a televised match. Flash thought the build made by ForGG was really good and perfected it and used it many times. Forgg used it many times also.
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On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 00:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 06 2016 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 05 2016 23:16 opisska wrote:On December 05 2016 23:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I agree that supply and current ressources would be nice. I don't want anymore than that though.
Sad that Effort didn't make it (we really need some zerg players in the ro16, especially with zero not particpiating -.-) but nice to see that Rain kicks some ass! Yeah I tuned in mostly to see how Rain does in BW and it turns out that he really does pretty well Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. Well him beating Effort came as a surprise imo, but apparently Effort never advances anymore -.- 4 horsemen? Rain, Bogus (?), Soulkey (?) and? Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late
No way. P7GAB was certainly not considered anything special by the BW community. I never heard anyone lumping up even the first 3 back then. That whole thing sounds like a storyline manufactured by SC2 fans. Sure he was a up and coming player with decent potential, but there probably more than 10 players you would mention before him. Soulkey were already a borderline top 5 player. Bogus and Rain were competent. So were Snow, Action and Horang2.
Among the non-established rookie players, the most interesting were probably Reality, Shy(sos), Grape, Mini, Turn, Trap, Dear and (never forget) Paralyze aka Afrotoss. P7GAB certainly belonged in this group, but atleast from what I can remember he was among the least memorable/hyped up.
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4 Protoss and 4 Terran now in Ro16? Zerg pls.
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On December 05 2016 20:36 Peeano wrote:Poll: Recommend Winners MatchYes (139) 98% If you have time (2) 1% No (1) 1% 142 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners Match (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
wow, that's the second time only to see a 100%/yes poll with more than negligible voting count for me
Good game, finally a game not decided by 1 early misclick/plunder or 1 player dominating 
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JD, hero, soulkey, please save the zergs...
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On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 23:09 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 22:19 r33k wrote:On December 05 2016 21:37 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 21:37 r33k wrote:On December 05 2016 21:32 Miragee wrote:On December 05 2016 21:31 FlaShFTW wrote:
effort in a super slump now. effort has always been overrated, so... Except he's been better than Jaedong for more than half of his career so... Define better. Superior, more skilled. Not carried by momentum. No and no. And no. Have you seen Jaedong in his prime. The victories he achieved, playing from behind. Jaedong was definitely not a momentum based player. He was a player to fight to the bitter end. I would argue that Effort's win over Flash in the finals was quite a bit momentum-carried as well, after he caught a lucky strike with the early zergling agression. Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special.
Nobody here is pretending that Jaedong was superior at all facets of the game compared to other top zergs of his time. What is undeniable is that he was either the clear best, or at his worst, joint-best in terms of number of wins for the zerg race since the latter half of 2006. He was the best performing zerg in individual leagues, and was the Korean representative for WCG every year since 2008. You cannot denounce a particular quality from a player when he has been getting results. Yes, Jaedong did not have the ground breaking meta-shift of sAviOr, or the clever mind games of YellOw, or EffOrt. What he did have, was insane mastery of his units, coupled with top quality multi-tasking, made him a near force of nature in terms of pure mechanics.
Jaedong does tend to rely heavily on his mechanics, but at his peak, his mechanics alone allowed him to overcome top tier opponents despite having a strategic, racial, or even map disadvantages. It's not just mutalisks, while EffOrt had superior map movement and overall usage of zerglings comapred to Jaedong, their mastery over the actual units in terms of control was night and day. Jaedong got to the top based on his strengths, but was constantly judged for his poorer qualities just because people were nostalgic over other players such as sAviOr. Why should Jaedong only be judged against sAviOr's, or EffOrt's best qualities, and not the other way round? Who are you to judge which mastery of the game has the higher skill cap? Every player in history has a weakness, and no player is truly complete, even Flash at his absolute best. Just because you think lowly of a particular quality, doesn't take away the achievements that a player has managed to get.
Jaedong has admitted on stream that his late-game is lacking compared to other zergs, because he was so used to stomping his opponents with his early aggression and superior execution. ZerO, who is on the other side of the spectrum, with safe sound play, and arguably a better mastery of late-game management even when they were professionals, was quoted as saying that it was annoying that people who would play versus Jaedong would play scared and reserved, while the very same opponents would often do daring plays and economically greedy choices versus ZerO due to their knowledge of his late-game tendencies. There is no right or wrong when it comes to which path a player takes to win games. The only judgement you can pass is by their success, and if Jaedong's aggressive tendencies coupled with his superior execution, was as one dimensional and easily thwarted quality as you claim, Jaedong would have been a one hit wonder.
A one hit wonder. That's what, EffOrt, for all his talents, ended up being in the professional setting despite being hailed as the next great zerg. sAviOr was a non-factor as a top player a few years after his debut. Jaedong may have not been doing anything "special", but Jaedong was successful with his style for years on end (albeit not with a style you "respect") although not as successful when the maps neutered his strengths, or when the odds were stacked against him. But then again, what is this impossible standard that Jaedong somehow has to repeat what sAviOr at his absolute peak managed once throughout his entire career? Jaedong was excelling against all opponents in the ProLeague, MSL, OGN StarLeague, WCG, Seoul e-Sports Festival, and GomTV Classic. Hell, he had excellent win rates versus all opponents during practice, and even top players like Bisu, and free went on the record that Jaedong was far harder to defeat during practice. Why did Bisu lose ten games in a row to a zerg he met online, and didn't even have a clue about his identity? Was he "scared" of a random online zerg? Jaedong's success and quality as a professional player far exceeds his ability to "scare" opponents, or relying on momentum.
EffOrt is regarded by many as the most highly skilled zerg player of today. However, you are far too lenient on his failures, and limitations as a professional player, when at the same time you expect some kind of miracles off Jaedong. How much more did Jaedong have to win in order for you to stop thinking that EffOrt was better for much of of career? Or is it, like I suspect, a stylistic choice that is based more off personal preference and biases, rather than a judgement based on an objective criteria.
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On December 06 2016 06:20 RouaF wrote:Rain very impressive, EffOrt disappointing (as always?). + Show Spoiler +Sending his hydras BEFORE nuking the tanks with his queens... come on 
Sending hydra's before the broodlings were done was NOT a mistake. It was all he could do. When the tanks did their last siege before EffOrt attacked, effort was pushed back as far as he could go. His hydra were standing behind the hatchery, with many almost in the minerals. He had no more room to back up. This left three options:
1)Continue to stand there and wait for broodling
2)Retreat into his main to wait for broodling
3)Attack
Option 1 was definitely not a choice. Effort had at least 15s to wait before broodling, and the tanks were beginning to shell his hydra. Had he waited, his hydra would have been dead before broodling was finished.
Option 2 was also not a good option. The path between the main and natural on EotS is extremely narrow, and a long walk. Had he waited, he would have been forced to send hydra through that in a long single line and they would either literally all die, or even get blocked by goliaths trying to get to an area where they could attack. It also would have allowed Light to walk the goliaths into the now vacated natural and kill the drones/hatchery. Retreating to the main was surely a losing move, even if all the tanks were broodlinged.
That leaves only option 3. He had to pull the trigger, tried, and couldn't quite get it done. EffOrt lost because of his prior choices, and because he couldn't stall for an additional 15 seconds or so.
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I've always been a big Effort fan, and he's arguably underrated in some ways. But to try to make an argument about Effort > Jaedong is silly and takes it too far.
I get where it comes from. One can imagine an alternative universe where Effort's a couple years older and hits the scene in 2007 like Jaedong and Flash did, rather than 2009. In that scenario, he might grab another title during a slightly weaker era. In that scenario he racks up more wins in general, and maybe carries a strong CJ team to a title during a time that was better suited for them.
There's also his brief retirement in 2010, which was really unfortunate. Due to a combination of uncertainty around BW's future at the time, and being mistreated by CJ. Would've been great to see the alternate reality in which he never quits.
Zerg is a volatile race. A lot of guys had good results here and there, like Zero, Soulkey, Calm, Hydra, etc., but Effort was the clear #2 for the latter part of BW excepting the retirement and comeback period. Zero has super high peak skill, but was always held back by being a mentally weak player, something that's true to this very day (consider Zero's 0-3 against Sharp in the 3rd place match a couple ASLs ago as the latest of a long of examples).
In terms of absolute skill (not era adjusted - guys from earlier eras just weren't as good), Effort's peak skill was top 10 in BW history, possibly top 5.
And of course, while he has "only" one title, his title was one of the great accomplishments of the modern BW era.
So from a certain point of view, Effort's underrated, and his career could have turned out to be so much more.
But the fact that Zerg is a volatile race is also precisely why Jaedong was so incredibly great, and even with a decline in form in 2011, Jaedong is just head and shoulders above all other Zergs of all time. Jaedong made NINE OSL/MSL finals. Jaedong almost certainly wins 6, maybe 7 or 8 titles, if not for Flash. Remove Flash from history and Jaedong becomes the greatest player of all time. Remove Flash from history and Effort is still yet another great player.
No need to denigrate Jaedong to make a point about Effort's greatness. In terms of peak absolute skill, Effort's a top 3 Zerg of all time. Maybe even #1. He's always been great, and in another life, maybe we talk about TBLS + Effort instead of TBLS. Effort, Fantasy, and maaaaybe Jangbi (depending on how much credit you want to give Jangbi for his OSL titles after a period of being absolutely terrible) are the only other guys you could say might have been worth tacking on to TBLS in the latter era.
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On December 06 2016 18:38 darktreb wrote:
I've always been a big Effort fan, and he's arguably underrated in some ways. But to try to make an argument about Effort > Jaedong is silly and takes it too far.
I get where it comes from. One can imagine an alternative universe where Effort's a couple years older and hits the scene in 2007 like Jaedong and Flash did, rather than 2009. In that scenario, he might grab another title during a slightly weaker era. In that scenario he racks up more wins in general, and maybe carries a strong CJ team to a title during a time that was better suited for them.
There's also his brief retirement in 2010, which was really unfortunate. Due to a combination of uncertainty around BW's future at the time, and being mistreated by CJ. Would've been great to see the alternate reality in which he never quits.
Zerg is a volatile race. A lot of guys had good results here and there, like Zero, Soulkey, Calm, Hydra, etc., but Effort was the clear #2 for the latter part of BW excepting the retirement and comeback period. Zero has super high peak skill, but was always held back by being a mentally weak player, something that's true to this very day (consider Zero's 0-3 against Sharp in the 3rd place match a couple ASLs ago as the latest of a long of examples).
In terms of absolute skill (not era adjusted - guys from earlier eras just weren't as good), Effort's peak skill was top 10 in BW history, possibly top 5.
And of course, while he has "only" one title, his title was one of the great accomplishments of the modern BW era.
So from a certain point of view, Effort's underrated, and his career could have turned out to be so much more.
But the fact that Zerg is a volatile race is also precisely why Jaedong was so incredibly great, and even with a decline in form in 2011, Jaedong is just head and shoulders above all other Zergs of all time. Jaedong made NINE OSL/MSL finals. Jaedong almost certainly wins 6, maybe 7 or 8 titles, if not for Flash. Remove Flash from history and Jaedong becomes the greatest player of all time. Remove Flash from history and Effort is still yet another great player.
No need to denigrate Jaedong to make a point about Effort's greatness. In terms of peak absolute skill, Effort's a top 3 Zerg of all time. Maybe even #1. He's always been great, and in another life, maybe we talk about TBLS + Effort instead of TBLS. Effort, Fantasy, and maaaaybe Jangbi (depending on how much credit you want to give Jangbi for his OSL titles after a period of being absolutely terrible) are the only other guys you could say might have been worth tacking on to TBLS in the latter era.
You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season.
2006 R2: sAviOr
2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc]
2007 R2: GGPlay
2008 R1: Luxury
2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period)
2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period)
2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period)
EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable.
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Rain played an amazing game, while effört did his best, what a great game. (on the other hand how if you`ve seen Thrill SL p vs effort on Match Point, he made quite a lot of questionable decisions, and eventually lost him the game, some should tell him to buy imbalisks instead of trying to break trough with lukrers(??)
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United States10163 Posts
On December 06 2016 08:41 classicyellow83 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 08:26 Vivi57 wrote:
Light's build in the last game was beautiful. It's really neat that we can still see carefully planned builds win games. Light said during the interview that he had another build prepared for last game but he changed it b/c he saw how well effort played against rain and he felt that he would lose with the build he prepared. "So I decided to use the build made by Flash, the greatest player of all time, and it went well." After seeing this interview Flash he was very flattered but, said that he didn't create that build. It was actually ForGG who created it. Flash was the first one to use it on a televised match. Flash thought the build made by ForGG was really good and perfected it and used it many times. Forgg used it many times also.
anyone have the build order?
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United Kingdom1689 Posts
I really felt like the casting and analysis on the official stream, particularly in the Rain vs Effort game, was often way sub-par. There were a lot of important things missed, a lot of important things which happened right on screen which were hardly mentioned and seemed to generate no excitement, and some straight up bizarre situation assessments amongst other things.
I'm surprised at this from Artosis. Regarding Rapid, he seems like a nice fellow but I am just not sure his game knowledge is deep enough at all.
Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way?
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On December 06 2016 19:47 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 18:38 darktreb wrote:
I've always been a big Effort fan, and he's arguably underrated in some ways. But to try to make an argument about Effort > Jaedong is silly and takes it too far.
I get where it comes from. One can imagine an alternative universe where Effort's a couple years older and hits the scene in 2007 like Jaedong and Flash did, rather than 2009. In that scenario, he might grab another title during a slightly weaker era. In that scenario he racks up more wins in general, and maybe carries a strong CJ team to a title during a time that was better suited for them.
There's also his brief retirement in 2010, which was really unfortunate. Due to a combination of uncertainty around BW's future at the time, and being mistreated by CJ. Would've been great to see the alternate reality in which he never quits.
Zerg is a volatile race. A lot of guys had good results here and there, like Zero, Soulkey, Calm, Hydra, etc., but Effort was the clear #2 for the latter part of BW excepting the retirement and comeback period. Zero has super high peak skill, but was always held back by being a mentally weak player, something that's true to this very day (consider Zero's 0-3 against Sharp in the 3rd place match a couple ASLs ago as the latest of a long of examples).
In terms of absolute skill (not era adjusted - guys from earlier eras just weren't as good), Effort's peak skill was top 10 in BW history, possibly top 5.
And of course, while he has "only" one title, his title was one of the great accomplishments of the modern BW era.
So from a certain point of view, Effort's underrated, and his career could have turned out to be so much more.
But the fact that Zerg is a volatile race is also precisely why Jaedong was so incredibly great, and even with a decline in form in 2011, Jaedong is just head and shoulders above all other Zergs of all time. Jaedong made NINE OSL/MSL finals. Jaedong almost certainly wins 6, maybe 7 or 8 titles, if not for Flash. Remove Flash from history and Jaedong becomes the greatest player of all time. Remove Flash from history and Effort is still yet another great player.
No need to denigrate Jaedong to make a point about Effort's greatness. In terms of peak absolute skill, Effort's a top 3 Zerg of all time. Maybe even #1. He's always been great, and in another life, maybe we talk about TBLS + Effort instead of TBLS. Effort, Fantasy, and maaaaybe Jangbi (depending on how much credit you want to give Jangbi for his OSL titles after a period of being absolutely terrible) are the only other guys you could say might have been worth tacking on to TBLS in the latter era.
You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season. 2006 R2: sAviOr 2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc] 2007 R2: GGPlay 2008 R1: Luxury 2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period) 2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period) 2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period) EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable.
You are completely disregarding the nature of CJ, SKT and KT as teams. Of course ZerO would get to play and roll the dice a lot, who was on Woongjin? Pure? Guemchi? PianO? Roro? That's how Jaedong padded his stats, he was a great player in a team with just one other player above decent, whether it was Hiya, Hoejja or Anytime.
After MJY's prime CJ was always a proleague first team, and they had the 90s generation (and the 92s after the Hite merger) that trained as snipers, and that's something you won't see from stats unless you look at number of fielded players with winrates above 30%.
And your previous argument was completely disregarding the difference in average skill level from 2009 onwards. I absolutely agree that JD was someone who would win on mechanics alone, that was the point of my argument. That's the guy whose style all the apm zergs were trained to copy. Where JD had the mechanics (and the map pool, let's not kid ourselves), EffOrt had the tactical awareness of turning the tables by virtue of having better map sense and higher adaptability.
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On December 06 2016 19:47 Letmelose wrote:
You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season.
2006 R2: sAviOr
2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc]
2007 R2: GGPlay
2008 R1: Luxury
2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period)
2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period)
2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period)
EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable.
+1
Effort was mechanically one of the best of the non-JD Zergs, but the most succesfull in individual tournaments was actually... Calm. Just count his all finals and semifinals. Today i'm not even sure was it his overperformance in individual leagues or his underperformance in team leagues. From that point of view there was really no clear number two in Zerg. But if someone asked me about mechanics, I would answer that Effort had the best from non-JDs.
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On December 07 2016 21:03 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 08:41 classicyellow83 wrote:On December 06 2016 08:26 Vivi57 wrote:
Light's build in the last game was beautiful. It's really neat that we can still see carefully planned builds win games. Light said during the interview that he had another build prepared for last game but he changed it b/c he saw how well effort played against rain and he felt that he would lose with the build he prepared. "So I decided to use the build made by Flash, the greatest player of all time, and it went well." After seeing this interview Flash he was very flattered but, said that he didn't create that build. It was actually ForGG who created it. Flash was the first one to use it on a televised match. Flash thought the build made by ForGG was really good and perfected it and used it many times. Forgg used it many times also. anyone have the build order?
It was basically a fast CC into mech goliath only build. Just keep making factories and goliaths and make sure to match the ebay timing with the muta timing and you should be ok. Against faster muta timings, cutting scv's might be necessary to get enough defense up to deal with the early harass. You wall the nat to protect against ling attacks. He didn't get a complete wall, but ideally you would want one. Flash did something like this in early 2010. I know he used it when he destroyed Jaedong in one of the starleague finals. He also did a version in the same series where he built mnm as well and went on a mnm + goliath mid game rampage. I actually prefer that build. Basically you let the goliaths tank while the mnm do the damage. Goliath + mnm is a strong composition against anything that zerg can send at you until hive, and it's especially effective against hydras and mutas, which is the typical response to mech builds. It's also a very effective and more importantly swift sunken bust composition.
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mech goliath only build.
I should play BW just for this...
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On December 08 2016 07:15 IntoTheheart wrote:
mech goliath only build.
I should play BW just for this...
This build is really hard to deal with. I hate it. Jaedong even lost his only game versus a foreigner vs a goliath opening. It's just really, really ugly.
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EPT
