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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On December 05 2016 23:16 opisska wrote: Yeah I tuned in mostly to see how Rain does in BW and it turns out that he really does pretty well Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. Well him beating Effort came as a surprise imo, but apparently Effort never advances anymore -.- 4 horsemen? Rain, Bogus (?), Soulkey (?) and? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:06 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well him beating Effort came as a surprise imo, but apparently Effort never advances anymore -.- 4 horsemen? Rain, Bogus (?), Soulkey (?) and? Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On December 05 2016 23:09 Miragee wrote: No and no. And no. Have you seen Jaedong in his prime. The victories he achieved, playing from behind. Jaedong was definitely not a momentum based player. He was a player to fight to the bitter end. I would argue that Effort's win over Flash in the finals was quite a bit momentum-carried as well, after he caught a lucky strike with the early zergling agression. Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late Oh yeah i thought it might be Zest but wasn't sure :D I wonder if the other two will play bw in the near future as well, could be the case. | ||
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Miragee
8707 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote: Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. Effort had 45 % win rate vs terran in 2010. Especially in early 2010 he had an insane losing streak against terran, including regular losses against players of the caliber of Lomo or gogo. In 2011 he played exactly one official ZvT according to TLPD, so nice try. I'm pretty sure now you are just delusional or a troll. No point in discussing this with you any further. On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late Pretty much. Wooki showed a lot of promising plays during the last days of professional BW. He was a bit behind the other three but I would put him into the same boat. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:14 Miragee wrote: Effort had 45 % win rate vs terran in 2010. Especially in early 2010 he had an insane losing streak against terran, including regular losses against players of the caliber of Lomo or gogo. In 2011 he played exactly one official ZvT according to TLPD, so nice try. I'm pretty sure now you are just delusional or a troll. No point in discussing this with you any further. Pretty much. Wooki showed a lot of promising plays during the last days of professional BW. He was a bit behind the other three but I would put him into the same boat. Especially funny considering TLPD says JD had a 82% winrate against terran in 2011 with 27:6 stats | ||
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Miragee
8707 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:22 The_Red_Viper wrote: Especially funny considering TLPD says JD had a 82% winrate against terran in 2011 with 27:6 stats Yeah but he only spam-microed his way to victory. No skill involved. | ||
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lestye
United States4241 Posts
Really impressed with Rain. On December 06 2016 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. I'm sorry, I'm ignorant, whats this about horsemen? There's nothing about horsemen on liquipedia like there are dragons. | ||
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[Fin]Vittu
Canada507 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:48 Peeano wrote: VODs Thank you, very much appreciated!  | ||
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ndesktop
Romania109 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:38 Miragee wrote: Yeah but he only spam-microed his way to victory. No skill involved. Maybe these VODs will enlight the term "spam-micro to victory". T scalps includes (in order) Midas, Baby, Fantasy, Flash, Reality etc. And that's just a compilation from 2011. For example, check the game vs Fantasy, for example, ultraling/defiler/scourge vs split-map mech. I don't see any muta-spam here or smth. Just my 0.02. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late I remember there was a lot of talented protoss at the tail end. I remember Dear, sHy/sOs and Mini all looking like potential "next big thing" along with wooki... You never know how things would have panned out. Snow and Last also showed good potential in some periods and if the transition had happened earlier when they were having their streaks, we would have been talking about them instead of Bogus/Innovation and Rain i guess. These were all players born between 92-94 we're talking about. Things can be turbulent in that age so its not sure if wooki, rain and bogus would have climbed steadily to the top (Soulkey was already kind of there, at least in proleague). However considering their SC2 careers it looks kinda likely, so yeah...hmmm Here are some other players born in this same time range: Stats, killer, soO, Baby/TY, Horang2, Action. These had all pretty much become well established, good to great players in the years 2010-12. They were the same age as "the four horsemen'", but some of them bloomed earlier you know. Is it right to mythologize Soulkey, Rain, Bogus/Innovation or wooki as the "four horsemen" bringing the End for the previous paradigm and establishing a new one? Actually i think BW had been more or less figured out at that point so you wouldn't have the sort of change that happened in 2006-2007. TBLS were the true "four horsemen" hehe Off course we like to have certain storylines in BW.. Maybe it is interesting to study their respective careers in SC2, i mean if the 4 players in question showned themselves to have generally stronger mentality in finals etc in SC2,.i guess it counts for something? Altough Stats, sOs,soO and Dear all went along having great careers in SC2 (as far as i understand). Last and Killer have showned themselves to be dominant later on in post-kespa BW. All of the above could have become OSL/MSL champions given more time. I dont know. I just dont want us to give a clean cut impression that there was something very special about those 4 players, at least not from a BW perspective. The funny thing is that there is another player born in this 92-94 generation. His name is Flash. Which just makes you contemplate for a while.. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On December 06 2016 02:15 ndesktop wrote: Maybe these VODs will enlight the term "spam-micro to victory". T scalps includes (in order) Midas, Baby, Fantasy, Flash, Reality etc. And that's just a compilation from 2011. For example, check the game vs Fantasy, for example, ultraling/defiler/scourge vs split-map mech. I don't see any muta-spam here or smth. Just my 0.02. Miragee was being sarcastic  + Show Spoiler + Just watched the vods, really great games especially of course Effort vs Rain! I'm very hyped for the upcoming games! Also enjoyed Artosis / Rapid casting much more now than previously, they had some really good banter this time around (and this is from someone who usually prefers Korean only stream) | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
Also what the hell was effort doing, why attack with hyralisks BEFORE the broodlings? | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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RouaF
France4121 Posts
Sending his hydras BEFORE nuking the tanks with his queens... come on  | ||
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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LML
Germany1794 Posts
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