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[ASL2] Ro24 Day 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW) twitch TV (Tasteless and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
Thx again! | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
hoping for light to spawn top right on benzene, so he can proxy 8 rax, kill ovi, small bunker rush into vulture with wall | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/b9186700943ece0536720f24e2da1950.png) | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
Poll: Who Will Advance ? Effort (5) Rain (2) Light (1) Force(Name) (0) 8 total votes Your vote: Who Will Advance ? Poll: Who Will Advance 2nd ? Light (3) Rain (3) Effort (1) Force(Name) (0) 7 total votes Your vote: Who Will Advance 2nd ? | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:13 Peeano wrote: Not the polls he meant. well they're nice too. but yeah I'm talking about recommendations but sawa can cover the rest. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
Poll: Recommend Effort v Light If you have a time (15) No (7) Yes (5) 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Effort v Light Poll: Recommend Rain v Force(Name) If you have time (11) No (5) Yes (1) 17 total votes Your vote: Recommend Rain v Force(Name) Recommend Winners Match Poll: Recommend Winners Match Yes (139) If you have time (2) No (1) 142 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners Match Recommend Losers Match Poll: Recommend Losers Match ?? No (21) If you have time (8) Yes (2) 31 total votes Your vote: Recommend Losers Match ?? Recommend Final Match | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:24 BLinD-RawR wrote: Bisu? you mean light Haha sry bro lol . | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:32 Miragee wrote: lol, Light. That was some bad management right there. Also why would you go 2 port cloak wraith and don't harass with them? He couldn't harassed with the wraiths because efforts 1 control group of zerglings knocking on his doors . Without the wraiths at his main base he risk the chance of his natural getting run over from mutas and lings. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:32 Probemicro wrote: irradiating the ling was the highlight of that game. That was an amazing mis-micro. Truly Clam worthy. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:33 Sawamura wrote: He couldn't harassed with the wraiths because efforts 1 control group of zerglings knocking on his doors . Without the wraiths at his main base he risk the chance of his natural getting run over from mutas and lings. Just send 1-2 wraith over the map to scout, kill overlords, kill a drone and keep effort on his toes. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:36 Miragee wrote: Just send 1-2 wraith over the map to scout, kill overlords, kill a drone and keep effort on his toes. Yeah I see light wanted to do that but I guess with the lings and muta already destroying his bunker at natural he is left out of options . Not to mention with the fail irradiate caused him the game. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
(((((((((((( | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: omg i thought this start 11:30 .... ((((((((((((Yeah me too. Was glad I checked the time again like 5 minutes before the broadcast started :/ | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
thought start was at 730 | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: can someone give a recap about effort vs light plz ? i did read some irradiate mistakes,but no much information/post about the game. effort went 2 hatch muta and grabbed a 3rd macro hatch with a sunken out front to the vulture of light who went 2 port wraith behind it. effort invested mutas and pushed while grabbing a 3rd gas and light transitioned into vessel tech for irradiate while not adding any barracks or factories. 2 missed irradiates (1 on a ling and 1 on a damaged muta) | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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oEkY
Germany645 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: can someone give a recap about effort vs light plz ? i did read some irradiate mistakes,but no much information/post about the game. Light built 1 marine, 1 vult and gone 2 starports wraiths, after 4 wraiths and cloack he gone vessel and more wraiths. effort built a lot of mutas and some lings and went with mutas/slow overlords slowly towards lights natural expansion. Light missclicked with the first irridiation (ling) and the second hitted a muta which was low on life. so effort won with his attack. light looked a bit unlucky there... | ||
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
@bakuryu then light really played that bad,lossing 4 drones to wraiths doing 2 h is already bad,i cant imagine 5 or even 6..also i dont like this move by light going for vessels if he is he getting already a good lead only making more wraiths will solidify his position even more while vessels is giving zerg more chances to counter attack. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:08 Bakuryu wrote: why are zergs still playing 12 hatch zvp T_T why are zergs still putting the 12h in the standard natural ? :D | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
Still no ling speed? | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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alypse
Vietnam2762 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
Great Effort by Rain. | ||
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eekmice
United States373 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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byj
494 Posts
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
Nonstop fighting. Both almost mined out. Best game of ASL. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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BornToPun
United States38 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:38 letian wrote: Rain played as good PL-toss, Effort played as good post-PL zerg. Lol? Effort was playing with big disadvantage the whole game, he did everything he needed to come back but Rain didn't make any mistakes so yeah | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
Rain is to become a Dragon like he was meant to be? | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: yeah that game was nice but effort was always playing from behind -_- I felt like he was ahead in the early mid-game when he had a huge amount of hydras but didn't capitalise on that fact. He would rather pull back the flank he had and let the zealots escape from his base instead of killing at least a few of them and then be in the position to apply pressure to Rain. After that he fell behind. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:40 ortseam wrote: Lol? Effort was playing with big disadvantage the whole game, he did everything he needed to come back but Rain didn't make any mistakes so yeah I didn't watch the beginning, but even so, Effort's negligence in micro and all those >20 kill reavers hit you in the back eventually. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:40 ortseam wrote: Lol? Effort was playing with big disadvantage the whole game, he did everything he needed to come back but Rain didn't make any mistakes so yeah He definitely made a mistake losing his reavers at the bottom base when he clearly was microing other units near that base so he could clearly see the zerglings would wipe them while scarabs were reloading. But he was in control most of the game. GGWP. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:42 Miragee wrote: I felt like he was ahead in the early mid-game when he had a huge amount of hydras but didn't capitalise on that fact. He would rather pull back the flank he had and let the zealots escape from his base instead of killing at least a few of them and then be in the position to apply pressure to Rain. After that he fell behind. He had a clear advantage after Rain failed to snipe 12h and he should have swarmed the 3h or 6h of Rain but he somehow stayed at home. | ||
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Incanus
Canada695 Posts
First time I've stayed up to watch StarCraft in like 5 years. Worth it! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
First game that went into Hive tech this season turned out to be so good. Those storms were nuts! | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Incanus
Canada695 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:48 usopsama wrote: I don't remember By.Sun being this good in decision-making. Winning multiple championships - as Artosis says - in another related game probably helps that. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:44 FlaShFTW wrote: effort really needed to be more aggressive. when you're letting a protoss walk over you and you dont do anything in return its huge. Come on, Effort played fantastic. But Rain kept being a threat with his army and Effort decided to keep control of his army to defend. He could not have done that if he was aggressive. Priorities. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
imo EffOrt played a bit too defensively but then again when Rain is pushing the envelope on aggression. He was pulling some serious aggression; to the point where it almost made his whole game collapse. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:43 letian wrote: I didn't watch the beginning, but even so, Effort's negligence in micro and all those >20 kill reavers hit you in the back eventually. Negligence in micro? You simply can't dodge every (well-placed) storm when you are controlling more than 4 groups of units in every single battle. About reavers, it's all about protoss protecting them well, which Rain did excellent. The move with lurkers trying to take out reavers looked bad, but it's exactly what you need to do to kill the Protoss ball else he will just slowly kill your army. Rain just responded perfectly with the instant storm | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
nevermind, Light didn't continue | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
Snipes the nydus at the third. How force did not see that huge bio blob is beyond me. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:53 ortseam wrote: Negligence in micro? You simply can't dodge every (well-placed) storm when you are controlling more than 4 groups of units in every single battle. About reavers, it's all about protoss protecting them well, which Rain did excellent. The move with lurkers trying to take out reavers looked bad, but it's exactly what you need to do to kill the Protoss ball else he will just slowly kill your army. Rain just responded perfectly with the instant storm I guess you never saw guys like Jaedong, Zero etc. playing in their prime. They freaking dodged more than 90 % of the storms immediately. It almost never happened that they left a group of hydras inside a storm for the whole duration of that storm. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
And he has burrow. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:05 gngfn wrote: I feel bad for Force but I find it hard to believe that this build would work even on Fish Same feeling here. I've seen better games from amateurs on Fish | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/njEBZOi.gif) | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
Lots of derp in that game. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:08 2Pacalypse- wrote: I wonder if this strat would've worked for Force had he not lose his 3rd. Hard to imagine when he wasn't even able to scout the huge bio army that bore down on his third. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:08 2Pacalypse- wrote: I wonder if this strat would've worked for Force had he not lose his 3rd. Even if played his tech correctly Benzine really doesn't look like the type of map I would want to play ultra ling on. Circuit breaker would've been better for this even if it is less safe to get your bases going while rushing Hive. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:13 mutantmagnet wrote: Even if played his tech correctly Benzine really doesn't look like the type of map I would want to play ultra ling on. Circuit breaker would've been better for this even if it is less safe to get your bases going while rushing Hive. Are you dyslexic or am I retarded. Could have sworn that was played on Circuit Breakers. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:03 Miragee wrote: I guess you never saw guys like Jaedong, Zero etc. playing in their prime. They freaking dodged more than 90 % of the storms immediately. It almost never happened that they left a group of hydras inside a storm for the whole duration of that storm. He could have microed better in certain situations but his micro overall was fine late game and definitely not the reason he lost, especially in a game where he was playing with big disadvantage from the get-go + Show Spoiler + I remember JD v Bisu on Desti where he eats entire storms in critical battles but still wins due to ht snipe and opening. He even uses a similar build with the recent showmatch | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:26 c3rberUs wrote: Is EffOrt all-in now? No but he is very far behind. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
I asked too soon. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:29 r33k wrote: Effort goes queens every game vs T what are these casters excited about I'm not listening to the English cast tonight, but in the past I've noticed that they're kind of stuck in 2009 when it comes to ZvT strategy. e: Also, to be fair, 2 base queens vs a Terran making tanks from only one factory is a pretty unusual situation | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:29 r33k wrote: Effort goes queens every game vs T what are these casters excited about Well obviously they don't watch games, but queens are kinda bad against goliath opening tbh | ||
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ramon
Germany4842 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:31 FlaShFTW wrote: effort in a super slump now. effort has always been overrated, so... | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
i dont call beating bisu 3-0 in a final to be overrated. no one realized how big his slump was i guess. ASL Ro16 out Nal_Ra Ro8 out to Bisu Thrill Ro16 out to Sharp and Sky ASL2 Ro24 out to Light and Rain | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Obviously the hard part comes now but I bet he'll prepare some schenanigans for the 2nd group round. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:33 letian wrote: I always cheer for zergs but for some reason I wanted Light to win. Weird. Light is one of those players I dislike the most (not personally of course). He used to be shit in everything but TvZ and in TvZ he was abusive as fuck and the games are always really ugly and painful to watch as a zerg. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Except he's been better than Jaedong for more than half of his career so... | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:37 r33k wrote: Except he's been better than Jaedong for more than half of his career so... Define better. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TwcosUA.jpg) | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:32 letian wrote: Only Soulkey, JD and Zero can play broodlings ) Have you paid attention since kespa? Effort is the best broodling player around the last few years... | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:38 usopsama wrote: Two of my fav dragons, so hyped! | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
Effort has a 5-9 record vs Jaedong back in the day, worse overall stats in every match up and won a single OSL compared to 5 major titles for JD, excluding other big wins of Jaedong like WCG etc. I think your claim is pretty far-fetched... | ||
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:36 Miragee wrote: Weird. Light is one of those players I dislike the most (not personally of course). He used to be shit in everything but TvZ and in TvZ he was abusive as fuck and the games are always really ugly and painful to watch as a zerg. He was the best TvZ once for a reason. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:45 Marl wrote: RIP effort. Starting to feel like 2008 with all this protoss and terran dominance. Hoping for Jaedong and hero to stand their ground. Waiting for minidong to come and claim the throne back. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:38 tanngard wrote: Have you paid attention since kespa? Effort is the best broodling player around the last few years... Jesus, please | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
Yes, everytime I saw him play I was thinking "god, I'm so glad not every terran is playing like this". | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:37 r33k wrote: Except he's been better than Jaedong for more than half of his career so... wait, what? | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:59 Foxxan wrote: Vods anywhere? Always check Small VOD Thread 2.0 for latest spoiler-free VODs before even dare asking. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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zlosynus
Czech Republic339 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:59 Foxxan wrote: Vods anywhere? Personally using gaming.youtube.com channel AfreecaTV: https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg. You can watch all matches in one video, you can watch it live, or later. Today, I started watching 1 hour after the start. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1496 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
I would like to see how someone argues this in Efforts favor lol. You could argue Effort isn't even better then Great was more easily then Effort > JD | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Superior, more skilled. Not carried by momentum. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:16 iFU.pauline wrote: damn effort, there is no more point in watching asl now. Yes there is, because we still have hero, jaedong and soulkey to root for! Just cheer more and never stop believing in your zerg race | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:21 B-royal wrote: Fucking effort. My favourite player failing every tournament lately. I understand your dissapointment. But if it makes you angry that player fail to advance, just remember that it is only a game and effort is only a human. No one wantet to advance more than effort himself and no one is probably more dissapointed than him just now. Cheer up B-royal | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:29 opisska wrote: This was fun, although the stream died on me during the last game (but according to the comments, it was quite onesided at the end, so I haven't lost much). What I still don't understand is why they refuse to put more information on the stream (as I have been told here is possible). I get that BW folks don't really like it, but there are two English streams, so the one that is anyway more oriented towards old BW fans could retain the current status and the one with Artosis, which is clearly designed to attract also SC fans (considering how often they make SC2 comparisons) could have resource counts and supplies and noone could be offended, right? I understand that implementing all the features, such as "workers killed lately" and upgrades finishing into BW would take work that noone is willing to put, but resources and supply (and possibly workers) isn't that much to ask for, is it? No stream deaths on the best stream: http://afreeca.tv/36833823/v/54074 Anyone who wants a different perspective come watch our vods :D | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:35 c3rberUs wrote: Hmm, if you know any thing about past BW leagues, there are leagues that implement them and some that don't. It's really a matter of league organizers deciding they want that displayed or not. Likewise, there are BW folks who are for displaying info because well, it's informative and BW folks who are against it because it's absence adds to the suspense and thrill factor. Yeah, all I am saying is that organisers of this particular league should consider showing as much info as possible, because they are obviously trying to appeal to SC2 fans and we are really used to having the info - and they have the great opportunity to have both options thanks to having two streams. However I don't really know where else to show such feedback than here. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Sad that Effort didn't make it (we really need some zerg players in the ro16, especially with zero not particpiating -.-) but nice to see that Rain kicks some ass! | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:19 r33k wrote: Superior, more skilled. Not carried by momentum. Pretty sure you are trolling | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 05 2016 22:19 r33k wrote: Superior, more skilled. Not carried by momentum. No and no. And no. Have you seen Jaedong in his prime. The victories he achieved, playing from behind. Jaedong was definitely not a momentum based player. He was a player to fight to the bitter end. I would argue that Effort's win over Flash in the finals was quite a bit momentum-carried as well, after he caught a lucky strike with the early zergling agression. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 05 2016 23:09 The_Red_Viper wrote: I agree that supply and current ressources would be nice. I don't want anymore than that though. Sad that Effort didn't make it (we really need some zerg players in the ro16, especially with zero not particpiating -.-) but nice to see that Rain kicks some ass! Yeah I tuned in mostly to see how Rain does in BW and it turns out that he really does pretty well | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On December 05 2016 23:16 opisska wrote: Yeah I tuned in mostly to see how Rain does in BW and it turns out that he really does pretty well Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. Well him beating Effort came as a surprise imo, but apparently Effort never advances anymore -.- 4 horsemen? Rain, Bogus (?), Soulkey (?) and? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:06 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well him beating Effort came as a surprise imo, but apparently Effort never advances anymore -.- 4 horsemen? Rain, Bogus (?), Soulkey (?) and? Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On December 05 2016 23:09 Miragee wrote: No and no. And no. Have you seen Jaedong in his prime. The victories he achieved, playing from behind. Jaedong was definitely not a momentum based player. He was a player to fight to the bitter end. I would argue that Effort's win over Flash in the finals was quite a bit momentum-carried as well, after he caught a lucky strike with the early zergling agression. Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late Oh yeah i thought it might be Zest but wasn't sure :D I wonder if the other two will play bw in the near future as well, could be the case. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote: Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. Effort had 45 % win rate vs terran in 2010. Especially in early 2010 he had an insane losing streak against terran, including regular losses against players of the caliber of Lomo or gogo. In 2011 he played exactly one official ZvT according to TLPD, so nice try. I'm pretty sure now you are just delusional or a troll. No point in discussing this with you any further. On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late Pretty much. Wooki showed a lot of promising plays during the last days of professional BW. He was a bit behind the other three but I would put him into the same boat. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:14 Miragee wrote: Effort had 45 % win rate vs terran in 2010. Especially in early 2010 he had an insane losing streak against terran, including regular losses against players of the caliber of Lomo or gogo. In 2011 he played exactly one official ZvT according to TLPD, so nice try. I'm pretty sure now you are just delusional or a troll. No point in discussing this with you any further. Pretty much. Wooki showed a lot of promising plays during the last days of professional BW. He was a bit behind the other three but I would put him into the same boat. Especially funny considering TLPD says JD had a 82% winrate against terran in 2011 with 27:6 stats | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:22 The_Red_Viper wrote: Especially funny considering TLPD says JD had a 82% winrate against terran in 2011 with 27:6 stats Yeah but he only spam-microed his way to victory. No skill involved. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
Really impressed with Rain. On December 06 2016 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: Unsurprising, seeing as how he was one of the new 4 horsemen pre sc2 switch. I'm sorry, I'm ignorant, whats this about horsemen? There's nothing about horsemen on liquipedia like there are dragons. | ||
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[Fin]Vittu
Canada507 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On December 05 2016 21:48 Peeano wrote: VODs Thank you, very much appreciated! | ||
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ndesktop
Romania109 Posts
On December 06 2016 01:38 Miragee wrote: Yeah but he only spam-microed his way to victory. No skill involved. Maybe these VODs will enlight the term "spam-micro to victory". T scalps includes (in order) Midas, Baby, Fantasy, Flash, Reality etc. And that's just a compilation from 2011. For example, check the game vs Fantasy, for example, ultraling/defiler/scourge vs split-map mech. I don't see any muta-spam here or smth. Just my 0.02. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late I remember there was a lot of talented protoss at the tail end. I remember Dear, sHy/sOs and Mini all looking like potential "next big thing" along with wooki... You never know how things would have panned out. Snow and Last also showed good potential in some periods and if the transition had happened earlier when they were having their streaks, we would have been talking about them instead of Bogus/Innovation and Rain i guess. These were all players born between 92-94 we're talking about. Things can be turbulent in that age so its not sure if wooki, rain and bogus would have climbed steadily to the top (Soulkey was already kind of there, at least in proleague). However considering their SC2 careers it looks kinda likely, so yeah...hmmm Here are some other players born in this same time range: Stats, killer, soO, Baby/TY, Horang2, Action. These had all pretty much become well established, good to great players in the years 2010-12. They were the same age as "the four horsemen'", but some of them bloomed earlier you know. Is it right to mythologize Soulkey, Rain, Bogus/Innovation or wooki as the "four horsemen" bringing the End for the previous paradigm and establishing a new one? Actually i think BW had been more or less figured out at that point so you wouldn't have the sort of change that happened in 2006-2007. TBLS were the true "four horsemen" hehe Off course we like to have certain storylines in BW.. Maybe it is interesting to study their respective careers in SC2, i mean if the 4 players in question showned themselves to have generally stronger mentality in finals etc in SC2,.i guess it counts for something? Altough Stats, sOs,soO and Dear all went along having great careers in SC2 (as far as i understand). Last and Killer have showned themselves to be dominant later on in post-kespa BW. All of the above could have become OSL/MSL champions given more time. I dont know. I just dont want us to give a clean cut impression that there was something very special about those 4 players, at least not from a BW perspective. The funny thing is that there is another player born in this 92-94 generation. His name is Flash. Which just makes you contemplate for a while.. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On December 06 2016 02:15 ndesktop wrote: Maybe these VODs will enlight the term "spam-micro to victory". T scalps includes (in order) Midas, Baby, Fantasy, Flash, Reality etc. And that's just a compilation from 2011. For example, check the game vs Fantasy, for example, ultraling/defiler/scourge vs split-map mech. I don't see any muta-spam here or smth. Just my 0.02. Miragee was being sarcastic  + Show Spoiler + Just watched the vods, really great games especially of course Effort vs Rain! I'm very hyped for the upcoming games! Also enjoyed Artosis / Rapid casting much more now than previously, they had some really good banter this time around (and this is from someone who usually prefers Korean only stream) | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
Also what the hell was effort doing, why attack with hyralisks BEFORE the broodlings? | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
Sending his hydras BEFORE nuking the tanks with his queens... come on | ||
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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LML
Germany1756 Posts
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killer1nz
New Zealand164 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote: Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. Effort 2010 vs T - 44% Jaedong 2010 vs T - 57% (most of these games were against flash & light) Effort didn't play the majority of 2011 (retired) Jaedong 2011 vs T - 26-6 81% | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 06 2016 08:26 Vivi57 wrote: Light's build in the last game was beautiful. It's really neat that we can still see carefully planned builds win games. Light said during the interview that he had another build prepared for last game but he changed it b/c he saw how well effort played against rain and he felt that he would lose with the build he prepared. "So I decided to use the build made by Flash, the greatest player of all time, and it went well." After seeing this interview Flash he was very flattered but, said that he didn't create that build. It was actually ForGG who created it. Flash was the first one to use it on a televised match. Flash thought the build made by ForGG was really good and perfected it and used it many times. Forgg used it many times also. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wooki, aka Zest Although some would argue his place, but that's literally because he came in so late No way. P7GAB was certainly not considered anything special by the BW community. I never heard anyone lumping up even the first 3 back then. That whole thing sounds like a storyline manufactured by SC2 fans. Sure he was a up and coming player with decent potential, but there probably more than 10 players you would mention before him. Soulkey were already a borderline top 5 player. Bogus and Rain were competent. So were Snow, Action and Horang2. Among the non-established rookie players, the most interesting were probably Reality, Shy(sos), Grape, Mini, Turn, Trap, Dear and (never forget) Paralyze aka Afrotoss. P7GAB certainly belonged in this group, but atleast from what I can remember he was among the least memorable/hyped up. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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Talaris
Switzerland753 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:36 Peeano wrote: wow, that's the second time only to see a 100%/yes poll with more than negligible voting count for me Good game, finally a game not decided by 1 early misclick/plunder or 1 player dominating | ||
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 06 2016 00:30 r33k wrote: Jaedong's prime didn't last as long as people pretend it did. He picked up after MJY was done because he could micro mutas, and that's all zergs needed to win games since KeSPA stopped making anti-zerg maps. And that wasn't even an innovation, that was July's shtick. Meanwhile in 2010 Effort was beating terrans with lurker-ling-defiler, which has a much higher skillcap since it requires multiple timings, variable build orders and micro that isn't 50% spam. In 2011, when the maps got insanely Terran favored because KeSPA loved their streaks and they needed a new bonjwa and Zergs no longer had a timing to strike with mutas because the first stim push came out faster with no opportunity cost Jaedong stopped winning games, and Effort's winrate stayed the same. The FPVOD era has cemented that their timings and game awareness are not even comparable. How reliant Effort is on the early corner third and how he goes queen and sometimes queen-guardian, how he gets an insane amount of damage with zerglings done every game not because people are leaving their walls open but because he maneuvers stuff around the open centers like MJY would when he would have burrowed lings to hold vision over the map. Jaedong has never done that. Even now, Jaedong goes mutas, tries to do stuff with them and sometimes he does ok, but then he just autopilots into easy crazy zerg. They're not even comparable. Most of the middle of Jaedong's career was him winning games because his opponents were scared of him, like ZerO wouldn't practice when he had to play MSL finals against Flash in 2011. That's all momentum, he wasn't doing anything special. Nobody here is pretending that Jaedong was superior at all facets of the game compared to other top zergs of his time. What is undeniable is that he was either the clear best, or at his worst, joint-best in terms of number of wins for the zerg race since the latter half of 2006. He was the best performing zerg in individual leagues, and was the Korean representative for WCG every year since 2008. You cannot denounce a particular quality from a player when he has been getting results. Yes, Jaedong did not have the ground breaking meta-shift of sAviOr, or the clever mind games of YellOw, or EffOrt. What he did have, was insane mastery of his units, coupled with top quality multi-tasking, made him a near force of nature in terms of pure mechanics. Jaedong does tend to rely heavily on his mechanics, but at his peak, his mechanics alone allowed him to overcome top tier opponents despite having a strategic, racial, or even map disadvantages. It's not just mutalisks, while EffOrt had superior map movement and overall usage of zerglings comapred to Jaedong, their mastery over the actual units in terms of control was night and day. Jaedong got to the top based on his strengths, but was constantly judged for his poorer qualities just because people were nostalgic over other players such as sAviOr. Why should Jaedong only be judged against sAviOr's, or EffOrt's best qualities, and not the other way round? Who are you to judge which mastery of the game has the higher skill cap? Every player in history has a weakness, and no player is truly complete, even Flash at his absolute best. Just because you think lowly of a particular quality, doesn't take away the achievements that a player has managed to get. Jaedong has admitted on stream that his late-game is lacking compared to other zergs, because he was so used to stomping his opponents with his early aggression and superior execution. ZerO, who is on the other side of the spectrum, with safe sound play, and arguably a better mastery of late-game management even when they were professionals, was quoted as saying that it was annoying that people who would play versus Jaedong would play scared and reserved, while the very same opponents would often do daring plays and economically greedy choices versus ZerO due to their knowledge of his late-game tendencies. There is no right or wrong when it comes to which path a player takes to win games. The only judgement you can pass is by their success, and if Jaedong's aggressive tendencies coupled with his superior execution, was as one dimensional and easily thwarted quality as you claim, Jaedong would have been a one hit wonder. A one hit wonder. That's what, EffOrt, for all his talents, ended up being in the professional setting despite being hailed as the next great zerg. sAviOr was a non-factor as a top player a few years after his debut. Jaedong may have not been doing anything "special", but Jaedong was successful with his style for years on end (albeit not with a style you "respect") although not as successful when the maps neutered his strengths, or when the odds were stacked against him. But then again, what is this impossible standard that Jaedong somehow has to repeat what sAviOr at his absolute peak managed once throughout his entire career? Jaedong was excelling against all opponents in the ProLeague, MSL, OGN StarLeague, WCG, Seoul e-Sports Festival, and GomTV Classic. Hell, he had excellent win rates versus all opponents during practice, and even top players like Bisu, and free went on the record that Jaedong was far harder to defeat during practice. Why did Bisu lose ten games in a row to a zerg he met online, and didn't even have a clue about his identity? Was he "scared" of a random online zerg? Jaedong's success and quality as a professional player far exceeds his ability to "scare" opponents, or relying on momentum. EffOrt is regarded by many as the most highly skilled zerg player of today. However, you are far too lenient on his failures, and limitations as a professional player, when at the same time you expect some kind of miracles off Jaedong. How much more did Jaedong have to win in order for you to stop thinking that EffOrt was better for much of of career? Or is it, like I suspect, a stylistic choice that is based more off personal preference and biases, rather than a judgement based on an objective criteria. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On December 06 2016 06:20 RouaF wrote: Rain very impressive, EffOrt disappointing (as always?). + Show Spoiler + Sending his hydras BEFORE nuking the tanks with his queens... come on Sending hydra's before the broodlings were done was NOT a mistake. It was all he could do. When the tanks did their last siege before EffOrt attacked, effort was pushed back as far as he could go. His hydra were standing behind the hatchery, with many almost in the minerals. He had no more room to back up. This left three options: 1)Continue to stand there and wait for broodling 2)Retreat into his main to wait for broodling 3)Attack Option 1 was definitely not a choice. Effort had at least 15s to wait before broodling, and the tanks were beginning to shell his hydra. Had he waited, his hydra would have been dead before broodling was finished. Option 2 was also not a good option. The path between the main and natural on EotS is extremely narrow, and a long walk. Had he waited, he would have been forced to send hydra through that in a long single line and they would either literally all die, or even get blocked by goliaths trying to get to an area where they could attack. It also would have allowed Light to walk the goliaths into the now vacated natural and kill the drones/hatchery. Retreating to the main was surely a losing move, even if all the tanks were broodlinged. That leaves only option 3. He had to pull the trigger, tried, and couldn't quite get it done. EffOrt lost because of his prior choices, and because he couldn't stall for an additional 15 seconds or so. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
I get where it comes from. One can imagine an alternative universe where Effort's a couple years older and hits the scene in 2007 like Jaedong and Flash did, rather than 2009. In that scenario, he might grab another title during a slightly weaker era. In that scenario he racks up more wins in general, and maybe carries a strong CJ team to a title during a time that was better suited for them. There's also his brief retirement in 2010, which was really unfortunate. Due to a combination of uncertainty around BW's future at the time, and being mistreated by CJ. Would've been great to see the alternate reality in which he never quits. Zerg is a volatile race. A lot of guys had good results here and there, like Zero, Soulkey, Calm, Hydra, etc., but Effort was the clear #2 for the latter part of BW excepting the retirement and comeback period. Zero has super high peak skill, but was always held back by being a mentally weak player, something that's true to this very day (consider Zero's 0-3 against Sharp in the 3rd place match a couple ASLs ago as the latest of a long of examples). In terms of absolute skill (not era adjusted - guys from earlier eras just weren't as good), Effort's peak skill was top 10 in BW history, possibly top 5. And of course, while he has "only" one title, his title was one of the great accomplishments of the modern BW era. So from a certain point of view, Effort's underrated, and his career could have turned out to be so much more. But the fact that Zerg is a volatile race is also precisely why Jaedong was so incredibly great, and even with a decline in form in 2011, Jaedong is just head and shoulders above all other Zergs of all time. Jaedong made NINE OSL/MSL finals. Jaedong almost certainly wins 6, maybe 7 or 8 titles, if not for Flash. Remove Flash from history and Jaedong becomes the greatest player of all time. Remove Flash from history and Effort is still yet another great player. No need to denigrate Jaedong to make a point about Effort's greatness. In terms of peak absolute skill, Effort's a top 3 Zerg of all time. Maybe even #1. He's always been great, and in another life, maybe we talk about TBLS + Effort instead of TBLS. Effort, Fantasy, and maaaaybe Jangbi (depending on how much credit you want to give Jangbi for his OSL titles after a period of being absolutely terrible) are the only other guys you could say might have been worth tacking on to TBLS in the latter era. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 06 2016 18:38 darktreb wrote: I've always been a big Effort fan, and he's arguably underrated in some ways. But to try to make an argument about Effort > Jaedong is silly and takes it too far. I get where it comes from. One can imagine an alternative universe where Effort's a couple years older and hits the scene in 2007 like Jaedong and Flash did, rather than 2009. In that scenario, he might grab another title during a slightly weaker era. In that scenario he racks up more wins in general, and maybe carries a strong CJ team to a title during a time that was better suited for them. There's also his brief retirement in 2010, which was really unfortunate. Due to a combination of uncertainty around BW's future at the time, and being mistreated by CJ. Would've been great to see the alternate reality in which he never quits. Zerg is a volatile race. A lot of guys had good results here and there, like Zero, Soulkey, Calm, Hydra, etc., but Effort was the clear #2 for the latter part of BW excepting the retirement and comeback period. Zero has super high peak skill, but was always held back by being a mentally weak player, something that's true to this very day (consider Zero's 0-3 against Sharp in the 3rd place match a couple ASLs ago as the latest of a long of examples). In terms of absolute skill (not era adjusted - guys from earlier eras just weren't as good), Effort's peak skill was top 10 in BW history, possibly top 5. And of course, while he has "only" one title, his title was one of the great accomplishments of the modern BW era. So from a certain point of view, Effort's underrated, and his career could have turned out to be so much more. But the fact that Zerg is a volatile race is also precisely why Jaedong was so incredibly great, and even with a decline in form in 2011, Jaedong is just head and shoulders above all other Zergs of all time. Jaedong made NINE OSL/MSL finals. Jaedong almost certainly wins 6, maybe 7 or 8 titles, if not for Flash. Remove Flash from history and Jaedong becomes the greatest player of all time. Remove Flash from history and Effort is still yet another great player. No need to denigrate Jaedong to make a point about Effort's greatness. In terms of peak absolute skill, Effort's a top 3 Zerg of all time. Maybe even #1. He's always been great, and in another life, maybe we talk about TBLS + Effort instead of TBLS. Effort, Fantasy, and maaaaybe Jangbi (depending on how much credit you want to give Jangbi for his OSL titles after a period of being absolutely terrible) are the only other guys you could say might have been worth tacking on to TBLS in the latter era. You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season. 2006 R2: sAviOr 2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc] 2007 R2: GGPlay 2008 R1: Luxury 2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period) 2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period) 2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period) EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable. | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10340 Posts
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noname_
456 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On December 06 2016 08:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Light said during the interview that he had another build prepared for last game but he changed it b/c he saw how well effort played against rain and he felt that he would lose with the build he prepared. "So I decided to use the build made by Flash, the greatest player of all time, and it went well." After seeing this interview Flash he was very flattered but, said that he didn't create that build. It was actually ForGG who created it. Flash was the first one to use it on a televised match. Flash thought the build made by ForGG was really good and perfected it and used it many times. Forgg used it many times also. anyone have the build order? | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1667 Posts
I'm surprised at this from Artosis. Regarding Rapid, he seems like a nice fellow but I am just not sure his game knowledge is deep enough at all. Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way? | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On December 06 2016 19:47 Letmelose wrote: You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season. 2006 R2: sAviOr 2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc] 2007 R2: GGPlay 2008 R1: Luxury 2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period) 2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period) 2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period) EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable. You are completely disregarding the nature of CJ, SKT and KT as teams. Of course ZerO would get to play and roll the dice a lot, who was on Woongjin? Pure? Guemchi? PianO? Roro? That's how Jaedong padded his stats, he was a great player in a team with just one other player above decent, whether it was Hiya, Hoejja or Anytime. After MJY's prime CJ was always a proleague first team, and they had the 90s generation (and the 92s after the Hite merger) that trained as snipers, and that's something you won't see from stats unless you look at number of fielded players with winrates above 30%. And your previous argument was completely disregarding the difference in average skill level from 2009 onwards. I absolutely agree that JD was someone who would win on mechanics alone, that was the point of my argument. That's the guy whose style all the apm zergs were trained to copy. Where JD had the mechanics (and the map pool, let's not kid ourselves), EffOrt had the tactical awareness of turning the tables by virtue of having better map sense and higher adaptability. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2260 Posts
On December 06 2016 19:47 Letmelose wrote: You can debate about the midichlorian count of EffOrt all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there was no clear cut number two for the zerg race. If you take away Jaedong from the equation (he was the best, or joint best performing zerg player since late 2006 in the ProLeague), this was the best performing zerg for each of the ProLeague season. 2006 R2: sAviOr 2007 R1: Yellow[Arnc] 2007 R2: GGPlay 2008 R1: Luxury 2008/2009: Calm (wins the Avalon MSL within this period) 2009/2010: ZerO (EffOrt wins Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 within this period) 2010/2011: ZerO (ZerO gets 2nd place at ABCMart MSL within this period) EffOrt, even during his peak, was the third best performing zerg in the ProLeague and during his entire career had a single tournament where he went beyond the round of eight. His skills were indeed other worldly at times, and he had aspects of the game down way better than the other top zergs of the time. Result-wise, he was at best the second best zerg of his era at the height of his career, and even that was debatable. +1 Effort was mechanically one of the best of the non-JD Zergs, but the most succesfull in individual tournaments was actually... Calm. Just count his all finals and semifinals. Today i'm not even sure was it his overperformance in individual leagues or his underperformance in team leagues. From that point of view there was really no clear number two in Zerg. But if someone asked me about mechanics, I would answer that Effort had the best from non-JDs. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
It was basically a fast CC into mech goliath only build. Just keep making factories and goliaths and make sure to match the ebay timing with the muta timing and you should be ok. Against faster muta timings, cutting scv's might be necessary to get enough defense up to deal with the early harass. You wall the nat to protect against ling attacks. He didn't get a complete wall, but ideally you would want one. Flash did something like this in early 2010. I know he used it when he destroyed Jaedong in one of the starleague finals. He also did a version in the same series where he built mnm as well and went on a mnm + goliath mid game rampage. I actually prefer that build. Basically you let the goliaths tank while the mnm do the damage. Goliath + mnm is a strong composition against anything that zerg can send at you until hive, and it's especially effective against hydras and mutas, which is the typical response to mech builds. It's also a very effective and more importantly swift sunken bust composition. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
I should play BW just for this... | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 08 2016 07:15 IntoTheheart wrote: mech goliath only build. I should play BW just for this... This build is really hard to deal with. I hate it. Jaedong even lost his only game versus a foreigner vs a goliath opening. It's just really, really ugly. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 08 2016 08:29 Bakuryu wrote: i dont see a problem with this build. effort was in the best position and made so many mistakes that he deserved to lose. I wasn't saying that he deserved to win here or that he played well. | ||
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TheSpectruM
New Zealand33 Posts
On December 08 2016 07:14 L1ghtning wrote: It was basically a fast CC into mech goliath only build. just keep making factories and goliaths and make sure to match the ebay timing with the Muta timing and you should be ok. Against faster Muta timings, cutting scv's might be necessary to get enough defense up to deal with the early harass. You wall the nat to protect against ling attacks. He didn't get a complete wall, but ideally you would want one. Flash did something like this in early 2010. I know he used it when he destroyed Jaedong in one of the starleague finals. He also did a version in the same series where he built mnm as well and went on a mnm + goliath mid game rampage. I actually prefer that build. Basically you let the goliaths tank while the mnm do the damage. Goliath + mnm is a strong composition against anything that zerg can send at you until hive, and it's especially effective against hydras and mutas, Which is the typical response to mech builds. It's also a very effective and more importantly Swift sunken bust composition. I believed this was the first usage of the build by Flash back in his series vs Jaedong in the Bigfile MSL finals in 2010. The build was 14cc + natural wall into fast 4 factory with 1 machine shop and immediate +1 armour upgrade, whilst skipping turrets and academy entirely. Jaedong expected standard mech and so skipped mutas and went for quick double expand but was overwhelmed by the timing attack. Light's build incorporated an ebay before the 4th factory which turned out to be the correct choice as Effort did not skip mutas and opted for a slower expand and so was able to put up a fight against the initial goliath push. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Another thing to consider is what Bisu said himself that the big names of old Broodwar are starting to get a little bit older and struggling to keep up. So many interesting factors in the scene right now. Rain isn't that much younger himself in this particular match up. I watched the games with Korean commentary first (I don't understand it. But if I miss the game live it's sometimes fun to see if your understanding is the same as the commentary) and then listened to Artosis and Rapid. I was amazed how different their commentary on the WInners match was from what I thought when I watched it. I assume I am probably wrong. But after the intial cannon rush it felt to me that Rain was ahead of Effort and Rain for most of the game was on the same number of bases as Effort. Which in my understanding is a very bad position for the Zerg. When I watched the game on my own it felt like Effort was just hanging on in the game and Rain nearly had the game, at least till near the end on low resources where it really was frantic. But then when I watched the commentary they made it sound like the game was very evenly balanced and it could go either way at any point. Not sure if tha't's just the purgative of the casters to make it sound closer than it is, my complete misinterpretation of the situation or maybe the match up has really changed a bit. I'll listen to BisuDagger & FlaShFTW and see what they thought at some point. Anyway great to have some Starcraft back. It's not the healthiest scene right now for the pro's but it's great for us the fans to have exciting games back again. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1667 Posts
On December 08 2016 18:21 Greg_J wrote: I watched the games with Korean commentary first (I don't understand it. But if I miss the game live it's sometimes fun to see if your understanding is the same as the commentary) and then listened to Artosis and Rapid. I was amazed how different their commentary on the WInners match was from what I thought when I watched it. I assume I am probably wrong. But after the intial cannon rush it felt to me that Rain was ahead of Effort and Rain for most of the game was on the same number of bases as Effort. Which in my understanding is a very bad position for the Zerg. When I watched the game on my own it felt like Effort was just hanging on in the game and Rain nearly had the game, at least till near the end on low resources where it really was frantic. But then when I watched the commentary they made it sound like the game was very evenly balanced and it could go either way at any point. Not sure if tha't's just the purgative of the casters to make it sound closer than it is, my complete misinterpretation of the situation or maybe the match up has really changed a bit. I'll listen to BisuDagger & FlaShFTW and see what they thought at some point. Anyway great to have some Starcraft back. It's not the healthiest scene right now for the pro's but it's great for us the fans to have exciting games back again. There was definitely significant misinterpretation at work on the official stream. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
On December 08 2016 03:20 ImbaTosS wrote: I really felt like the casting and analysis on the official stream, particularly in the Rain vs Effort game, was often way sub-par. There were a lot of important things missed, a lot of important things which happened right on screen which were hardly mentioned and seemed to generate no excitement, and some straight up bizarre situation assessments amongst other things. I'm surprised at this from Artosis. Regarding Rapid, he seems like a nice fellow but I am just not sure his game knowledge is deep enough at all. Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way? They seem to busy hyping the game and the players to actually pay serious attention to whats going on in the games. | ||
keit
1584 Posts
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