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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 03 2007 02:46 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2007 02:42 Masamune wrote:
I kind of feel sad for Savior. I was rooting for Bisu to win but I wish the games were a bit less one sided and would have gone to at least game 4 or 5.
Also, people constantly posting that hopefully this will prove that pvz is not imbalanced should stfu. You can't look at one series and claim that because a protoss beat a zerg in the finals (even the best zerg), that suddenly this mu is completely even. You have to look at the whole picture before making a judgement. There's a reason that many t and z players win big tournaments and one can argue that it's not by chance. There have been far more P winners than Z winner in the major leagues. Know what you are talking about before you speak.
Mani, you should know better than to say something so amateurish. P Starleague wins on maps like Guillotine (or island maps) hardly matter. And the game's changed so much watching Starcraft back then is like a completely different game.
The most telling statistic to me is that even crappy Zergs can reach 70, 80, 90% win percentage in ZvP. No Protoss even comes close in PvZ (hell, no other matchup period has any player with such a winning percentage). Even Reach in his heyday could not dominate PvZ, and he was a fucking PvP/PvT monster.
So either you're going to sit here and tell us it's a giant coincidence that so many people just rock at ZvP despite being mediocre at best in ZvT/ZvZ and so many people suck at PvZ despite doing awesome in PvT and PvP, or you've got to realize there's something weird going on about the PvZ matchup.
Look at other matchups. Casy is awesome TvZ, but he doesn't win 80+% of his games in the matchup. Neither did NaDa in TvP; XellOs in TvT; Boxer in TvP; or yes, even Savior in ZvT.
This series was amazing not just because Bisu won 3-0 against the best player in the world, but because he won 3-0 in a major final PvZ. Honestly, I don't think that's ever happened before.
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OH NOES!!!!!
Savior, please, don't become another YellOw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Before the final, Protoss has never won a major final PvZ since the heydays of Grrrr. No Protoss (or terran for that matter) has ever beaten Savior in a bo5. In fact, no Protoss has ever managed to take any more than 1 game off of Savior in a bo5, let alone beating him 3-0.
And before the final, beating rA in PvP is almost as amazing as beating Savior in PvZ. rA has never lost 0-3 vs anybody before, especially in PvP where he was over 80% at.
Bisu is now 6-0 vs 2 of the scariest vP players. When Bisu 3-0'ed rA, people say rA wasn't playing like his normal self. When Bisu 3-0'ed Savior, people say Savior wasn't playing like his normal self. I say that they couldn't play like their normal selves because Bisu played just that well.
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
On March 03 2007 07:31 crazie-penguin wrote:
OH NOES!!!!!
Savior, please, don't become another YellOw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Savior has been more succesful than YellOw anyway.
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I'm just shocked.
Sad though... I was hoping for Savior to become a idol or something...
Lets hope Savior recovers from this loss, and goes to the finals once again. (Whew... it seems like such a long way...)
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Oh by the way, Mani is totally right. Inquisitor, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but Savior is the only zerg over 80 percent protoss. Other zergs are just losing miserably. Their stats are about 50 - 60 percent. Recently in all the maps, Protoss players have been winning Zerg players. If you look at map balance, Protoss has one or two more points.
Savior is the only zerg who is so strong in protoss. He's also the player who balances out maps. If it weren't for him TvsZ longinus would be something like 14:5? (something like that). and P vs Z too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
30 000 ON FRAGBET SHIP IT.
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Both rek AND FA??
Argh, they knew better than me. 
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What are you guys talking about...... Savior still is a great player... He did get 3-0ed but it doesnt mean like his OSL game didnt count or like anything else. I am not a Savior fan but, I am pretty glad Bisu smashed him 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 03 2007 07:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2007 02:46 Manifesto7 wrote:On March 03 2007 02:42 Masamune wrote:
I kind of feel sad for Savior. I was rooting for Bisu to win but I wish the games were a bit less one sided and would have gone to at least game 4 or 5.
Also, people constantly posting that hopefully this will prove that pvz is not imbalanced should stfu. You can't look at one series and claim that because a protoss beat a zerg in the finals (even the best zerg), that suddenly this mu is completely even. You have to look at the whole picture before making a judgement. There's a reason that many t and z players win big tournaments and one can argue that it's not by chance. There have been far more P winners than Z winner in the major leagues. Know what you are talking about before you speak. Mani, you should know better than to say something so amateurish. P Starleague wins on maps like Guillotine (or island maps) hardly matter. And the game's changed so much watching Starcraft back then is like a completely different game. The most telling statistic to me is that even crappy Zergs can reach 70, 80, 90% win percentage in ZvP. No Protoss even comes close in PvZ (hell, no other matchup period has any player with such a winning percentage). Even Reach in his heyday could not dominate PvZ, and he was a fucking PvP/PvT monster. So either you're going to sit here and tell us it's a giant coincidence that so many people just rock at ZvP despite being mediocre at best in ZvT/ZvZ and so many people suck at PvZ despite doing awesome in PvT and PvP, or you've got to realize there's something weird going on about the PvZ matchup. Look at other matchups. Casy is awesome TvZ, but he doesn't win 80+% of his games in the matchup. Neither did NaDa in TvP; XellOs in TvT; Boxer in TvP; or yes, even Savior in ZvT. This series was amazing not just because Bisu won 3-0 against the best player in the world, but because he won 3-0 in a major final PvZ. Honestly, I don't think that's ever happened before.
Garimto 3-0 SKELTON, one game was PvP tho I believe.. (on an island map I think?)
Grrr came back from 0-2 vs hot to win the rest of the games 3-0 PvZ ( previous ones were not pvZ)
ALSO, there's VERY few zergs with a winning % of above 80% in ZvP, actually there's like 1? Savior.
Gorush had like 70% at his best? Same for Junwi and Julyzerg?
Bisu is, btw, like 70% PvZ.
And nal_ra, who's a monster in every matchup, is like 68% PvT, 60% PvP, 58% PvZ, not a huge difference between his PvP (who everyone has always said is the best in the world) and his PvZ.
Also, reach was godly in every matchup for a while, but he's NOT a good PvZ player.
Boxer used to be barely 50% TvP - why would you use him as an example? Dunno what exactly his TvZ record was but it used to be like 40-10 on OGN?
Iloveoov had 80% or close to it in several matchups.
Oh and if starleagues with guillotine, island maps etc don't count, I vote that the leagues with Bifrost, Mercury, Arizona etcetcetc don't count either.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
i just woke u p / im in shock.
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haha.. Bisu did it . this is what i've been waiting for since nada's loss last week .. it proves that savior is just like a human like us ..
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
what a thing to wake to ! !
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On March 03 2007 01:53 pr0n wrote:
I've honestly never seen worse play by a progamer. To lose 3 times in a row to the same thing is...pathetic.
Dude....just don't. Bisu played incredibly well
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bisu shines through the darkness of the swarm!!!
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On March 03 2007 07:09 spammerA wrote:
Assorted DT cheese only works today, Savior will 3:0 Bisu in superfight 5, just tune in and watch. I hope this is a joke post 
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im also shocked! people keep talking about how savior will 3-0 rape bisu and then this...
This would just make the next osl/msl seasons even more interesting ...
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On March 03 2007 08:11 FrozenArbiter wrote:
ALSO, there's VERY few zergs with a winning % of above 80% in ZvP, actually there's like 1? Savior.
Gorush had like 70% at his best? Same for Junwi and Julyzerg?
Chojja had 76% at one point, which IIRC was higher than Junwi's percentage. But it should be noted that at that same time at least 3 terrans were over 75% in tvz.
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On March 03 2007 07:09 spammerA wrote:
Assorted DT cheese only works today, Savior will 3:0 Bisu in superfight 5, just tune in and watch.
While I wouldn't call that a cheese, but what Bisu used was very weak and dangerous. I don't understand why he would assume that he could beat Savior using the same strategy three times in a row. That itself is a gamble imho.
With proper analysis, it would not take much to crush that build, basing this on the fact that "no strategy is perfect". Heck, if Savior gambled and went with a four-pool build in any of the three games, the result would be really different.
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On March 03 2007 01:58 Brutalisk wrote:
I can't believe that Savior plays so bad against Sairs/DT. He lost so many overlords and drones, it's ridiculous. Every game Bisu did the same and Savior too and lost. Unbelievable. Savior is already starting to slump badly. Losing 3 games vs. a Protoss in ~10 minutes each means nothing else. Well I'm disappointed but it was not really Bisu's skill, it was Savior's very bad play. So many expansions, so few units, so many overlords wasted...
Anyway, it doesn't really mean that much. Savior will be back. He can't win all matches.
Slumping because of loosing a BO5? I think not, the score doesn't really matter although it was a landslide. He lost momentum and Bisu's play was flawless.
You sound like Savior can't loose, which is BS.
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EPT
