On July 18 2012 14:49 Jealous wrote: Could anyone give me a list of specific possible reasons for why Fantasy constantly saved upwards of 2-3 k min/1k gas in the late game with ~150/160 supply? Was it in expectation of being broke soon? Was it for the availability of a full air switch? Some concrete answers would be great ^^
On July 18 2012 14:49 Jealous wrote: Could anyone give me a list of specific possible reasons for why Fantasy constantly saved upwards of 2-3 k min/1k gas in the late game with ~150/160 supply? Was it in expectation of being broke soon? Was it for the availability of a full air switch? Some concrete answers would be great ^^
A general rule of thumb in Starcraft is to always keep your resources below 400, but that isn't always true. I remember once when Jaedong went pure zergling/mutalisk against Light all the way until the late game and stock piled a ridiculous 3k minerlas and gas. 3k! Many thought his macro was just seriously off that game, but Jaedong's strat was actually obvious: he was saving up for ultralisks, and it worked out. He tried this strategy again during a later encounter against Flash but didn't even manage to get his ultralisk caverns up. Some people insisted he played badly and his macro was terrible when it actually wasn't. He was just going for a specific and risky strategy.
In Fatansy's case, though, there was no apparent reason behind stockpiling on resources like that. You just don't want to do that in TvT considering how long mech units take to build and how easy large clumps of units can be taken out by bad positioning or an unexpected drop or whatever. If you find yourself suddenly down by 50-ish supply, you pretty much have to hope your opponent does something wrong. Basically, you always want to be maxed out in TvT. So... yeah... not sure what Fantasy was thinking.
If we accept that Fantasy has a limited number of apm, say 400. Then it's glaringly obvious why he banked so many resources. Fantasy made the conscious decision to allocate the majority of his avaliable apm pool to 'micro' as opposed to 'macro'.
Opponents of BW like to complain about lack of strategic depth (because they are ignorant) but these 'apm sinks' actually allow for increased tactical and strategic options because players need to be able to variably prioritize certain actions over others.
On July 18 2012 10:16 nemga7 wrote: It's funny that people here in TL do trash talk on Flash's play.
Yesterday's match between fantasy and flash was so mind blowing, the Korean BW forums don't even dare to comment on the gameplay from either of them. Flash played a typical flash, but Fantasy's play was so speedy and aggressive, flash's play wasn't able to get on the regular track.
If you have no idea on how BW TvT works on the level of players like fantasy and flash, please don't try to act like one, because you are only embarrassing yourself.
The skill that Fantasy showed yesterday match was simply unbelievable, and was a worthy victory. At this point, he is simply a better player than Flash with no doubt, and the only reason that flash lost was not due to any bad decisions, but simply fantasy being the better player.
I'm betting on Fatasy pulling out a 3-0 win on the finals against Jangbi.
I think it's inevitable that people are asking, "Why did Flash lose this series?" Sometimes a 3-0 is in fact as simple as one player being significantly better - as opposed to playing significantly better - but I don't know if that is the case here. fantasy is almost certainly the world's best Terran (maybe even overall player) right now, but Flash is so close - and has been a clear #1 himself for so long - that to say fantasy is "simply a better player than Flash" is difficult for me to accept.
If this series was replayed 100 times, I doubt fantasy would 3-0 more than ten of them, if that. I doubt he win win more than 60 of these hypothetical series, if that. Of course I am guessing.
There are games where one player doesn't make clear mistakes but still loses. Many of them are TvTs: Flash vs Leta on Neo Medusa (the nuke dodge game); Flash vs UpMagic on Sin Chupung Ryeong (goliath vs BC); Light vs fantasy on Colosseum II (mass wraith finish). But when we can find mistakes - comsat timings, over-making dropships, poor drop decisions or timings, etc. - it's silly to just brush the criticism off with, "These players are both better than any of you will ever be."
Of course fantasy played better than Flash in this series. Much, much, better. But he's not normally this much better, not 3-0 better, and part of the reason is Flash's mistakes, as well as fantasy's brilliance.
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EDIT: I wanted to add another example here. We probably mostly remember that game Flash lost to Shuttle (I think), where he canceled turrets that he ended up needing. Was it bad play? Not exactly - in another game, if we remarked it at all, it would be "lol greedy Flash", and it might have had no effect. But in fact Flash lost that game because he took an unnecessary risk with incomplete information - and that makes it bad play. Or at least less than optimal play.
I totally agree. This is not the case like the Bachus OSL final, where Fantasy was just better player overall and outplayed Stork any way possible. Here critical mistakes, specially in game 2 and 3, were crucial to unexpected 3:0. In game 1 I think that dropship play was not much of mistake (more like just not well executed), becouse Flash had to defend and reinforce his outposts on the right spot of the map. Other way fantasy, having established defensive position in the middle of the map, would took them out one by one. Fantasy's decision to not let him get away with drops, like he almoust succeed in last SPL final, was the key here. Fantasy decided to hunt down any single dropship he found and this was right decision. IMO in game one Flash should use dropships to brake a middle defense of Fantasy instead of base droping (Fantasy had his forces spread, so I think it was possible, alas not without hight cassulties) and I dont understand what was the thing that scared him of.
On July 18 2012 15:15 ShadeR wrote: If we accept that Fantasy has a limited number of apm, say 400. Then it's glaringly obvious why he banked so many resources. Fantasy made the conscious decision to allocate the majority of his avaliable apm pool to 'micro' as opposed to 'macro'.
Opponents of BW like to complain about lack of strategic depth (because they are ignorant) but these 'apm sinks' actually allow for increased tactical and strategic options because players need to be able to variably prioritize certain actions over others.
This is the best explanation and the one I also believe in, Fantasy knew how to beat Flash and where he had to use his APM in order to be most effective against him. His army movements were superior.
Wow, Fantasy. I thought the games would go back and forth like from the last Bo5 when he met Flash, but to edge him out each game... Words can't be expressed.
I would've been honestly pleased with either one of the two advancing to the finals, but it looks like we get an encore of last year's finals. I wonder who will take home the last OSL gold? Ah, those words have such a depressing tone to them... But that depression can't stop me from getting hype for the grand finals.
And I just realized, the very last OSL final without any of TBLS playing... is a bit strange, haha. But I digress.
http://i.imgur.com/6mQUU.jpg the girls waiting for Jaedong and Team 8 before the OSL started. http://i.imgur.com/FCXuA.jpg The lines outside the gates, there was indeed a lot of people there, the hall was packed on the inside I got really lucky that I got in in the end, I know GTR was there at noon to get tickets. Kinda sad Flash lost since that meant I didnt get the chance to get an autograph on my picture http://i.imgur.com/DHbz0.jpg
On July 18 2012 14:49 Jealous wrote: Could anyone give me a list of specific possible reasons for why Fantasy constantly saved upwards of 2-3 k min/1k gas in the late game with ~150/160 supply? Was it in expectation of being broke soon? Was it for the availability of a full air switch? Some concrete answers would be great ^^
A general rule of thumb in Starcraft is to always keep your resources below 400, but that isn't always true. I remember once when Jaedong went pure zergling/mutalisk against Light all the way until the late game and stock piled a ridiculous 3k minerlas and gas. 3k! Many thought his macro was just seriously off that game, but Jaedong's strat was actually obvious: he was saving up for ultralisks, and it worked out. He tried this strategy again during a later encounter against Flash but didn't even manage to get his ultralisk caverns up. Some people insisted he played badly and his macro was terrible when it actually wasn't. He was just going for a specific and risky strategy.
That game against Light was a thing of beauty. Jaedong was down 50-60 supply for a good 5-10 minutes, but always seemed in control, and then after defending everything for a good ten minutes, he just rolled him with an unbelievable army out of nowhere.
On July 18 2012 14:49 ne4aJIb wrote: What right moves? Like killing own dropships? Losing over 9000 times his dropships? Not building at least 6 valkyries when he had 2 more gas mining? Building Academy and not building Scan? Building it just when Fantasy's wraiths killing your tanks?
Flash macroed like crazy, had much more bases, he had 50 supply difference, and he failed to take advantage of that.
I agree. There was a period of 10 mins where he was getting harassed by 10+ Wraiths but yet he did not build a single Valkyrie or two (which could have easily stopped all that). (During said 10 mins, most of his dropship play failed due to said Wraiths.)
(And Valkyries do full damage to Wraiths and a surprise attack can take them all out easily.)
He could have paused dropship production, build a few valkyries, and resumed dropship play after it was safe.
Up to potentially five games left of professional brood war (PL is a big joke) and watching pro gaming is more or less a thing of the past. Kind of sad just thinking about it .
On July 18 2012 14:49 ne4aJIb wrote: What right moves? Like killing own dropships? Losing over 9000 times his dropships? Not building at least 6 valkyries when he had 2 more gas mining? Building Academy and not building Scan? Building it just when Fantasy's wraiths killing your tanks?
Flash macroed like crazy, had much more bases, he had 50 supply difference, and he failed to take advantage of that.
I agree. There was a period of 10 mins where he was getting harassed by 10+ Wraiths but yet he did not build a single Valkyrie or two (which could have easily stopped all that). (During said 10 mins, most of his dropship play failed due to said Wraiths.)
(And Valkyries do full damage to Wraiths and a surprise attack can take them all out easily.)
He could have paused dropship production, build a few valkyries, and resumed dropship play after it was safe.
I don't know. Investing in mass Dropship play AND protecting them from wraiths with Valkyries costs quite alot of supply and could backfire if Fantasy decided to go mass ground.
On July 18 2012 14:49 Jealous wrote: Could anyone give me a list of specific possible reasons for why Fantasy constantly saved upwards of 2-3 k min/1k gas in the late game with ~150/160 supply? Was it in expectation of being broke soon? Was it for the availability of a full air switch? Some concrete answers would be great ^^
I am not too sure about this, but there was a very interesting note in game 2. Fantasy was banking almost 4k min 1k gas at the time the drop attack on 3 o'clock. After that Flash continued to drop in the main but got clean up. In this brief moment of time, Fantasy giant bank just disappeared, although he had to multitask more ( defended drop). And then Fantasy rolled out with a 30-supply-lead army.
To wit, I think Flash's peak was greater than Fantasy right now, who is currently at the height of his glory.
One only needs to see some of Flash's games against Jaedong in 2010. Absolutely perfect starsense, just the right amount of aggressiveness, boldness, and adaptability. He would literally catch the dragon's tail just before the dragon's invincibility, most notably in one game where he attacked a macroing Jaedong seconds before the Tyrant was about to get an implacable army of ultras and defilers.
Flash has obviously declined since then. Most notably, his starsense is no longer leaps and bounds above those of other players. He is not as bold or innovative as before, preferring to react to his foe rather than be proactive against him, as we saw in Game 1 of this final series.
Even though I never liked Flash for his pompous, in-your-face attitude, I feel sorry for him. He won't ever be in the minds of gamers as being as legendary as Boxer, iloveoov, or even SaviOr. He is now a king, but not a god.
On July 18 2012 20:55 vndestiny wrote: I am not too sure about this, but there was a very interesting note in game 2. Fantasy was banking almost 4k min 1k gas at the time the drop attack on 3 o'clock. After that Flash continued to drop in the main but got clean up. In this brief moment of time, Fantasy giant bank just disappeared, although he had to multitask more ( defended drop). And then Fantasy rolled out with a 30-supply-lead army.
If he hadnt have so many supplies of gas and minerals, he would have more units to crush Flash in the field, but any doom drop to the main would finished him of, as he wouldnt be capable of rebuild his barracks/ports? Thats one theory. More plausible is: Fantasy just offen drops in macro.
Fantasy, i think ,was pretty clearly outmacroed at parts. idk about the stockpiling money, but you can see parts of at least the first 2 games where little enough has happened but flash is significantly ahead in supply. This is occurs even before tons of money gets banked. That said, pretty amazing play out of Fantasy.
And on a more personal note: Fuck yeah Fantasy, getting me back to rank 1!
EPT
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