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Tune those piccolos, nana!
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United States11393 Posts
On February 05 2012 13:06 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range. I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
At most, he had 5-8 probes in his natural.
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On February 05 2012 13:06 yepenaxa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:04 sM.Zik wrote:
omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck. We get your point and it's kinda valid, but relax dude.
Yea, sorry about that ;p
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On February 05 2012 13:06 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range. I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
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I'm psyched for game 3 to be casted by Sayle tomorow. PvP is his marque matchup. I feel that 2 Gate Expand vs Protoss might be a completely unexplored build. As far as I can see, the only weakness of the build is facing against Dark Templars but the HOON have done a superb job at scouting BeSt and making sure there was no Citadel being build. If it was build, then a simple forge or teching into Obs would be enough. Its really refreshing.
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On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL ..
it rather describes the all-in attack
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On February 05 2012 13:10 George_the_man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL ..
When most people say cheese, they mean all-in. That is what most people consider all-in.
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On February 05 2012 13:04 sM.Zik wrote:
omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck.
Hey I think it's great, I liked tonights games and enjoy watching players come up with innovative strats.
Idk maybe I don't understand the definition of cheese very well, I thought it was sort of a prepared 'all in' strategy which hard counters standard play unless scouted and properly defended.
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On February 05 2012 13:10 George_the_man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
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On February 05 2012 13:08 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:06 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range. I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate . So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons. @sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Given how wide your definition of "cheese" is it loses its derogatory potency and is rather redundant.
In conclusion: Did Jeahoon cheese? Yes (according to your standards)
Was it a good game regardless? Yes
So what's the point? Dunno
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Cheese, all in call it what you want jaehoon was the better player in this match against best.
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On February 05 2012 13:08 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:06 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range. I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate . So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons. @sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Yea but the thing that annoy me the most, is that the so call "cheese", at least the way you guys talk about it, seem to be super negative.. Im watching pro bw since the early days and back then there was no such thing as cheese.. almost every games, players came up with different and smart strategies. You know, BW is not all about macro skills, its mainly a strategy game after all.
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omg, i can't beleive a lot of peoeple didn't see 2 gate expand before in pvp
I mean, blue storm, katrina, i think also the older version of bloody ridge. All the games were like that. (by both sides lol).
And after expanding off 2 gates, they make robo and citadel really fast. :s
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On February 05 2012 13:13 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:08 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:06 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range. I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate . So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons. @sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy. Given how wide your definition of "cheese" is it loses its derogatory potency and is rather redundant. In conclusion: Did Jeahoon cheese? Yes (according to your standards) Was it a good game regardless? Yes So what's the point? Dunno
The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
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This was REALLY unexpected, gonna have to watch vods when I can. It's pretty sad to see SKT lose 3-0 in this fashion.
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On February 05 2012 13:12 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:10 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese? , any proxy is cheese , generally everything what is not standard is cheese, even 1 gate into double expand
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On February 05 2012 13:12 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:10 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
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On February 05 2012 13:14 George_the_man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 13:12 Xiphos wrote:On February 05 2012 13:10 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:05 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 13:02 George_the_man wrote:On February 05 2012 13:01 renzy wrote:On February 05 2012 12:59 Sawamura wrote:On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote:
Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous. I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical. 2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut. ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win. ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
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lmao gotta watch the VODs cos I missed this.
Ah so happy, my two favourite protosses won.
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EPT
