On February 05 2012 10:31 bearbuddy wrote: I question your loyalty to your team Hyde. Why is the mighty Hyuk not in the banner?
lol how dare you question my loyalty! It's hard using Hyuk, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, such is the power of our Captain. There, how's that now?
On February 05 2012 10:31 bearbuddy wrote: I question your loyalty to your team Hyde. Why is the mighty Hyuk not in the banner?
lol how dare you question my loyalty! It's hard using Hyuk, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, such is the power of our Captain. There, how's that now?
haha that banner so funny :D i just woke up and i was trying to recognize who the hell are those players for a while before i realised its all Hyuks lolo Anyway i have a bad feeling this matchup will be complete disaster and team8 gonna get 3-0 ed yet again in bad style.. hope im wrong gogo T8
On February 05 2012 12:00 Zona wrote: I actually want Fantasy vs JD, I think it'd be a much more interesting match.
JD vs. anybody on SKT should make for an interesting match.
JD vs. Bisu - Goes without saying. JD vs. Best - Grudge match. JD vs. Fantasy - Grudge match deluxe. JD vs. Hyuk - lol JD vs. Sun - Should be an excellent match as sun's a good player. No history though. JD vs. s2 - Grudge Match JD vs. Princess - Old teammates and mentor-student match.
Six zerglings are killed and trapped, due to rally mistake some of the reinforcements arrive late. Bunkers are being built so Jaedong tries to do something with two zerglings that sneaked in. SIX ZERGLINGS RUN-BY! Ssak seems to have decided to migrate to natural where there is bunker as wall, and Jaedong is expanding.
I'm back, a bit late Looks like Ssak vs Jaedong on Electic Circuit SSak is living because of one bunker and its 13 supply to 5 supply Jaedong-SSak The CC is under ling attack and their are three left GG from SSak + Show Spoiler +
That was more Ssak controlling terribly. He had a chance their by killing more than enough of the first wave lings, but poor poor decision to go econ instead of marine spam still to negate further harass
Can't believe Jaedong mis-rallied zerglings while 5 pooling. It almost cost him the game. Ssak's scv surround on those lings was beautiful, if only he had fucking blocked the choke beside his bunker instead of leaving it wide open for no reason, he could've at least stayed in the game longer.
On February 05 2012 12:13 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Lol smart play from Jaedong, just taking a quick almost free game really shaking things up for SKT. Can't wair for set 2!
T8 really has a lot of potential and firepower. They need a shakeup right now, just to wake themselves up. They can go for broke mad every game, or mix it up by using other players. Other teams can prepare for them well because there is only 5 of them playing.
On February 05 2012 12:14 S-Class wrote: That was more Ssak controlling terribly. He had a chance their by killing more than enough of the first wave lings, but poor poor decision to go econ instead of marine spam still to negate further harass
On February 05 2012 12:15 zobz wrote: Can't believe Jaedong mis-rallied zerglings while 5 pooling. It almost cost him the game.
What happened to the zerglings? I haven't noticed anything (but ya, I was not giving attention to Jaedong's main that much)
When you rally units from main on Electric (ie from top right to top left or bott right to bott left) then the neutral buildings fucks with their pathing and they don't go where you want them so you have to manually control them
(This happened to Hydra when he lost to Killer too)
On February 05 2012 12:15 zobz wrote: Can't believe Jaedong mis-rallied zerglings while 5 pooling. It almost cost him the game.
What happened to the zerglings? I haven't noticed anything (but ya, I was not giving attention to Jaedong's main that much)
After Jaedong lost his first 8 lings fighting scvs in front of Ssak's choke, he sent a wave of I think 6 reinforcing lings but they got stuck in his mineral only and took twice as long to get to Ssak's base as they should have as a result. It was during this time that Ssak got his bunker up.
On February 05 2012 12:24 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: KTY's been hitting a lot of P recently. He needs the practice though, so maybe it's not a bad thing.
Everyone on T1 except Fantasy needs practice in most of their matchups.
Both players going to go for gate gas Nothing tricky just yet Bisu going to scout correctly with his first probe Core now planted down for Tyson, not sure about Bisu First zealot out for Tyson, to try and chase the probe
On February 05 2012 12:24 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: KTY's been hitting a lot of P recently. He needs the practice though, so maybe it's not a bad thing.
Everyone on T1 except Fantasy needs practice in most of their matchups.
Agreed. Considering how little Fanta was played at the beginning of Rd 1 he's certainly held the team together since.
2nd gate about to finish up for Bisu, as does his core First goon is out for Tyson, he's going to make 2 gate at his natural o.o, with a pylon behind the mineral line At his own natural for clarification
Best and Fantasy laughing and having a good time Bisu going to trick a probe into Tyson's main through the left side temples First try, and it gets stuck, second and its through Bisu with 3 goons and a zealot outside his nat See's nothing out of the ordinary, up to 5 goons, his robotics is up
Bisu's probe now sees the two gates at Tyson's nat Bisu pulling probes, but with a goon advantage over Tyson for the moment Tyson bringing in reinforcements Support Bay is done, 5 goons in Bisu's main, and probes are falling aswell
Bisu needs a shield battery, but he looks defeated No goons left, only probes Ttson giving Bisu a taste of his own medicine One reaver is out now, as well as two more goons Pylon powering the gates and the robo gets sniped More goons coming down the ramp Reaver gets sniped GG from Bisu! EZPZ 2-0 from Team 8 + Show Spoiler +
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
That was just what you get if you type gg in korean. Probably get a demerit.
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
On February 05 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote: Why did Tyson planted his 2 gates by his natural AND blocking the expansion? That move is still puzzling me.
Forward gates to get the rally out faster (no potential ramp goon herpderps) and also because the most likely path of the scout at that point was around those mineral patches on the side so the probe wouldn't see the extra gates in his main.
On February 05 2012 12:35 Hesmyrr wrote: Does ACE match begin early if this set end? Haven't watched live match so I forgot... if so let's gooo another cheese! (jkjk)
On February 05 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote: Why did Tyson planted his 2 gates by his natural AND blocking the expansion? That move is still puzzling me.
Forward gates to get the rally out faster (no potential ramp goon herpderps) and also because the most likely path of the scout at that point was around those mineral patches on the side so the probe wouldn't see the extra gates in his main.
Plus the backside expos are viable on this map so there's not even that problem if the game goes longer, even if it is a kind of all-in-ish attack.
Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
On February 05 2012 12:38 Niflheim wrote: Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
Watch this thread, there are so many live reporters its basically english commentary. Sayle also does english commentary but it's not live.
On February 05 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote: Why did Tyson planted his 2 gates by his natural AND blocking the expansion? That move is still puzzling me.
Because he could hide his pylon that way, so Bisu didn't see it warping in in Tyson's natural as his probe was chased out by goons. Edit: Oh, he did see it. Why didn't he suspect then?
On February 05 2012 12:38 Niflheim wrote: Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
there is an english rebroadcast in another 10 hours.
On February 05 2012 12:38 Niflheim wrote: Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
On February 05 2012 12:39 mustaju wrote: I honestly did expect SKT to perform better. I suppose everyone did. But this game ain't over yet. We'll see if SKT manages to lose this.
Still, party in the Estonian Republic nonetheless ?
On February 05 2012 12:37 Hinanawi wrote: I just got here, anyone got the short version of what happened Games 1 & 2?
First game: Jaedong 5pool against Ssak succeeds, although Ssak killed off most of Jaedongs lings at one point.
Second Game: Bisu goes 2gate robo and goes aggressive when he only sees 1gate in Tysons main and has seen a probe go towards the nat. Tyson went for 2 forward gates and pushed Bisu back to his base and eventually won.
On February 05 2012 12:38 Niflheim wrote: Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
Korean commentating is infinitely more exciting compared to any English commentating that exists.
Try watching the Korean commentating even if you don't understand what they are saying. =)
On February 05 2012 12:39 mustaju wrote: I honestly did expect SKT to perform better. I suppose everyone did. But this game ain't over yet. We'll see if SKT manages to lose this.
Still, party in the Estonian Republic nonetheless ?
I'm letting the celebratory ice cream stay in the freezer for now. I'm positive about it being consumed sooner or later.
On February 05 2012 12:41 Taekwon wrote: "simply because on outlier, you can scout from the back. kal had actually helped me out with this build haha. he's a good friend"
On February 05 2012 12:39 mustaju wrote: I honestly did expect SKT to perform better. I suppose everyone did. But this game ain't over yet. We'll see if SKT manages to lose this.
I'm not sure I expected them to perform better per se. Two all-ins are pretty hard to beat, and it's not like anybody other than Fanta has shown any sort of consistent form this season. The only time we've looked like our usual selves is when we've played KT and CJ.
It's certainly not over, but in the case of anybody but Fanta I've got nfi what sort of form they're going to bring today.
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
No, it only affects the set win/lose difference not the overall game win/lose difference
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
Whoa, that's hugely harsh. I had no idea accidentally typing 'gg' in Korean with the same exact key as 'g' could cause your team to potentially lose out on a chance at the playoffs.
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
Really? I thought it was from the team win-loss differential, not the team score. :S
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
Whoa, that's hugely harsh. I had no idea accidentally typing 'gg' in Korean with the same exact key as 'g' could cause your team to potentially lose out on a chance at the playoffs.
Fully expecting Jaehoon to go DTs.
it only effects set win/lose not the overall game win/lose difference
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
Really? I thought it was from the team win-loss differential, not the team score. :S
On February 05 2012 12:38 Niflheim wrote: Is there an english language cast? I'm a starcraft 2 newbie and wanted to check out what brood war matches are like, but I'm having kinda a hard time following these games
in 12 hours sayle will cast it, the event is on the calendar
Jaehoon with a forward pylon and gate at his nat Best with a regular pylon and gate in his main I think Best is cursed to be a one matchup player lol Best scouting the cliff behind his main, Bisu must cannon rush him all the time in practice
On February 05 2012 12:33 zobz wrote: Bisu typed something other than "gg". Looked like "g g". Is he gonna get disquallified from the league or something?
It was the Korean symbols that appear when you type in 'gg' (or I guess in direct translation, 'ww') I think that will go without penalty.
This is no penalty for Bisu, but got warning for Team. 2warnings become a -1 score. T1 has already got 1 warning, this is second warnings so their score will be 6-6. (now 7win-6lose)
Really? I thought it was from the team win-loss differential, not the team score. :S
Yeah win loss differential only, not team score.
btw what is Jaehoon doing?
AH oh yes! I was wrong! that's not the team score... sorry I make you guys confused ;-;
Core spinning for Best Core not up yet for Jaehoon First goon out for Best, Hoon's probe isn't going to last much longer Who's probe is that hugging the warp gate at Best's nat?
Best going to expo to his own nat Looks like it was Jaehoon's hidden probe Scouts the expo, and gets back into Best's main Core is still spinning, guess it wasn't fake No spinning from Jaehoon? 2nd gate for Best
If Best stays in the main to check gas timing (usually can determine how many zealots are coming out of gates without actually seeing the gates) then he won't see the FE but would assume that there are many zealots being made because the gas is late, so he has to prepare to defend... That is unless he smells fish or if he doesn't send probe through nat.
On February 05 2012 12:50 S-Class wrote: Is it just me, or is someone else bothered scouting workers who still have minerals or gas on their mouths? I find it ugly and wasteful as well.
i think the probe mined it at the opponent's minerals.
On February 05 2012 12:50 S-Class wrote: Is it just me, or is someone else bothered scouting workers who still have minerals or gas on their mouths? I find it ugly and wasteful as well.
He stole it from the enemy base, it's the opposite of wasteful --;
Went away for a second Looks like 3 gates for Jaehoon, and he opts for a reaver Forge and citadel warping in for Best, aswell as 4 gates, obs are out for him as well Guess Jaehoon just went speedlots Does Jaehoon have range?
Reaver is forcing Best back Jaehoon is bringing more and more speelots Long story short, sinec I went away Jaehoon just beat Best to down below his ramp, and killed his nexus 3-0 EZPZ for Team 8 GG from Best + Show Spoiler +
Really non-standard build from the HOON.... I wonder if Best reacted appropriately by taking the later expand? Maybe fast reaver would be better considering jaehoon had to cut goon range to get dragoons to fend off a gate push at his natural.
I don't think this series was terrible at all. Was actually one of the funniest and most entertaining series I've seen in a long time. The amount of cheese and mind games was awesome to say the least.
On February 05 2012 12:58 casualman wrote: Really non-standard build from the HOON.... I wonder if Best reacted appropriately by taking the later expand? Maybe fast reaver would be better considering jaehoon had to cut goon range to get dragoons to fend off a gate push at his natural.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
I'm sad T1 lost but really glad T8 won... (I was hoping for 3-2 T8) I'm really impressed with T8 actually. T8 really came in prepared with strong tactics and made it happen. Cheese or not, T8 showed some fierceness today =)
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
I thought that kind of thing is called a han-bang timing, no?
Match 1: 5 pool and excellent scouting vs poor scv control and decision making Match 2: Clever proxy 2 gate cheese while allowing opponent to scout and misread base Match 3: 2 Gate FE while cutting probes and getting better unit composition
I think this is an improvement for T8. Shows they are preparing and aer willing to do anything to win.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
Well since he has the extra resources he use it to warp in more speed lots and skip range for reavers profit ? Why go for range when I have the mineral advantage over my opponent ? Manlots man...
omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
On February 05 2012 13:04 sM.Zik wrote: omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck.
We get your point and it's kinda valid, but relax dude.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
On February 05 2012 13:04 sM.Zik wrote: omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck.
We get your point and it's kinda valid, but relax dude.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
I'm psyched for game 3 to be casted by Sayle tomorow. PvP is his marque matchup. I feel that 2 Gate Expand vs Protoss might be a completely unexplored build. As far as I can see, the only weakness of the build is facing against Dark Templars but the HOON have done a superb job at scouting BeSt and making sure there was no Citadel being build. If it was build, then a simple forge or teching into Obs would be enough. Its really refreshing.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL ..
When most people say cheese, they mean all-in. That is what most people consider all-in.
On February 05 2012 13:04 sM.Zik wrote: omfg EVERY damn time a player does only a little bit DIFFERENT THAN THE ULTRA BORING STANDARD PLAY 90% of you guys are like meeeeeeeeh cheeeeese!..... yea, Jd 5 pool was a cheese, but Jaehoon? WHY IS AN INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLED CHEESE????????
You guys are annoying, seriously. imo standard play 100% of the matches is boring as fuck.
Hey I think it's great, I liked tonights games and enjoy watching players come up with innovative strats.
Idk maybe I don't understand the definition of cheese very well, I thought it was sort of a prepared 'all in' strategy which hard counters standard play unless scouted and properly defended.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Given how wide your definition of "cheese" is it loses its derogatory potency and is rather redundant.
In conclusion: Did Jeahoon cheese? Yes (according to your standards) Was it a good game regardless? Yes So what's the point? Dunno
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Yea but the thing that annoy me the most, is that the so call "cheese", at least the way you guys talk about it, seem to be super negative.. Im watching pro bw since the early days and back then there was no such thing as cheese.. almost every games, players came up with different and smart strategies. You know, BW is not all about macro skills, its mainly a strategy game after all.
omg, i can't beleive a lot of peoeple didn't see 2 gate expand before in pvp I mean, blue storm, katrina, i think also the older version of bloody ridge. All the games were like that. (by both sides lol). And after expanding off 2 gates, they make robo and citadel really fast. :s
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Given how wide your definition of "cheese" is it loses its derogatory potency and is rather redundant.
In conclusion: Did Jeahoon cheese? Yes (according to your standards) Was it a good game regardless? Yes So what's the point? Dunno
The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese? , any proxy is cheese , generally everything what is not standard is cheese, even 1 gate into double expand
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
And you are saying that I accused Hoon of cheesing?
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
That's why you see most protoss go 12 nexus -> 2 base carrier against terran. There is a very small timing the terran can utilize, if their build order allow, to try to punish the 2 base carrier. If someone went say 3 goon expand into 2 base carrier (I don't think any sane protoss would do that), then it's probably a cheese, if the terran didn't stay on 1 factory the entire game.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
That's why you see most protoss go 12 nexus -> 2 base carrier against terran. There is a very small timing the terran can utilize, if their build order allow, to try to punish the 2 base carrier. If someone went say 3 goon expand into 2 base carrier (I don't think any sane protoss would do that), then it's probably a cheese, if the terran didn't stay on 1 factory the entire game.
is 4fac push cheese?if you don't do significant damage, you are severly behind
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
It was Violet. Good game btw.
didn't light beat stork on beltway last season the same way?
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
A protoss did it vs Hiya. Hiya scouted it, produced marines and won.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind. Timings attacks, excluding some extreme variantions of 5-6 facs with SCV cuts aren't. The timing that comes from the +1 2 gate zeal attack is not all in, the protoss doesnt need to do damage since the protoss didnt delay tech or probes. If Jaehoon's little 5 gate attack failed, he's pretty screwed since Best has more probes while Jaehoon didn't even have dragoon range.
I bet jaehoon mineral income was much more higher than his gas that's why he can afford the 5 gate .
So what? He cut a ton of probes, and stopped dragoon range. Maybe you guys don't realize how big of a deal this is, but try fighting ranged goon with none ranged dragoons.
@sM.Zik Intelligent play can be cheese. When you cut so many probes and skip a vital upgrade, it's called cheese. Sure it's a clever play, but never the less its an all-in strategy.
Given how wide your definition of "cheese" is it loses its derogatory potency and is rather redundant.
In conclusion: Did Jeahoon cheese? Yes (according to your standards) Was it a good game regardless? Yes So what's the point? Dunno
The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
Sigh, since everything is cheese to you, why should anyone care?
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
If best saw the probe cut that early and realized Jaehoon had no range on his goons EARLY ENOUGH, he could've added a robotics support himself while cutting some probes to add gates and get reavers out to help stop that timing. Don't tell me it's not possible because had Best gone to scout Jaehoon's base with his first observer right away, he might have held it off using the cliff advantage while microing his dragoons to pick off zealots while backing off to his own cliff.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
ok so with that logic for example 2 base carrier is cheese?
That's why you see most protoss go 12 nexus -> 2 base carrier against terran. There is a very small timing the terran can utilize, if their build order allow, to try to punish the 2 base carrier. If someone went say 3 goon expand into 2 base carrier (I don't think any sane protoss would do that), then it's probably a cheese, if the terran didn't stay on 1 factory the entire game.
is 4fac push cheese?if you don't do significant damage, you are severly behind
is 6fac cheese?
is hiya 10fac cheese?
Your logic doesnt make sense.
Like I said earlier, our definition of cheese is all-in. Yes 4 fac and 6 fac is all in. I'm sure most people would agree that if you fuck up your 4 fac or 6 fac hard, you pretty much lose.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
And you are saying that I accused Hoon of cheesing?
On February 05 2012 13:14 renzy wrote: The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
Sigh, since everything is cheese to you, why should anyone care?
Ya, it is like saying that all three games were BW. I would call cheese a build which really relies on not being scouted, like JD's 5 pool. But this was a timing push which was all-in (and awesome ); that's it.
On February 05 2012 13:14 renzy wrote: The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
Sigh, since everything is cheese to you, why should anyone care?
Ya, it is like saying that all three games were BW. I would call cheese a build which really relies on not being scouted, like JD's 5 pool. But this was a timing push which was all-in (and awesome ); that's it.
A timing push that is all-in needs to not be scouted. If scouted early, there's a good chance decent players will make the necessary adjustments to stop it.
On February 05 2012 12:57 renzy wrote: Man wtf. T8 cheesed all 3 games. WTF that was ridiculous.
I wouldn't call the 2 gate Fe a cheese actually it's quite economical.
2 Gate FE wasn't cheese. The followup was. No range and probe cuts that early? Yea it's definitely cheese alright. Jaehoon had barely enough probes to support 5 gates. A fully saturated 2 base protoss can support 8 gates without making probes. That'll give you an idea how much probes Jaehoon cut.
ye sure , any timing attack is cheese , if that makes u feel better about that loss sure why not to believe that
Cheese is defined as if you fail to do significant damage with the attack, you're very behind.
I doubt that is definition of cheese , that word is used way to often in TL .. it rather describes the all-in attack
A cheese is a risky build such that it depends entirely on the perceived scouting information of the opponent(s). If scouted ->lose, if not-> win.
Then game 3 was not cheese. There was little Best could've done to stop that timing, maybe if he sacced the nat, but that's a losing game. Reaver+better composition+moar gates. Sigh, confusing. How about we drop the cheese talk and rely on the recommended polls?
And you are saying that I accused Hoon of cheesing?
Um read first sentence again?
'how about we drop the cheese talk' had an implication that I was accusing Hoon of cheesing and you wanted to change the topic..
On February 05 2012 13:14 renzy wrote: The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
Sigh, since everything is cheese to you, why should anyone care?
Ya, it is like saying that all three games were BW. I would call cheese a build which really relies on not being scouted, like JD's 5 pool. But this was a timing push which was all-in (and awesome ); that's it.
A timing push that is all-in needs to not be scouted. If scouted early, there's a good chance decent players will make the necessary adjustments to stop it.
Not really, often players with an advantage in a game prepare a "game ending" timing that cannot be stopped by their opponent assuming progamer level control on both sides. In my opinion this was one such case. Over and out.
On February 05 2012 13:14 renzy wrote: The point was I said T8 cheesed all 3 games and people said they didn't. So I explained why the 3rd game was cheese?
Sigh, since everything is cheese to you, why should anyone care?
Ya, it is like saying that all three games were BW. I would call cheese a build which really relies on not being scouted, like JD's 5 pool. But this was a timing push which was all-in (and awesome ); that's it.
A timing push that is all-in needs to not be scouted. If scouted early, there's a good chance decent players will make the necessary adjustments to stop it.
Not really, often players with an advantage in a game prepare a "game ending" timing that cannot be stopped by their opponent assuming progamer level control on both sides. In my opinion this was one such case. Over and out.
Advantage? Jaehoon was slightly ahead, but he wasn't ahead enough to prepare a "game ending" timing that can not be stopped. Had Best ever bothered to check for dragoon range with a probe, he would have realized something is up. Had Best scouted with his observer earlier (I don't blame him for not scouting earlier in fear of DTs) and realized Jaehoon cut a ton of probes as well as dragoon range, I think there was a great chance Best could have cut probes to add enough gates and get a reaver out, to not take too much damage from that attack since he was holding the high ground.
Edit: Heck, had Best even got a glimpse of the zealot count, he could've prepared earlier to put up a better fight.
Edit 2: Do realize that Best had range and Jaehoon had no range. Best could have brought his dragoons further down the map to micro against the zealots while backing off to his cliff. That will greatly cut down the zealot number assuming Best doesn't completely fail at micro.
On February 05 2012 13:21 HighTemper wrote: Cheese or not cheese debate????
Jeez, you guys are turning this into the other SC's forum. IMO, game 3 is not a cheese. I'm outta here...
Thank you streamers. C ya in KT vs ACE.
More or less what I wanted to say. I don't understand why a build, "cheese" or not, has to be regarded as inferior to another build and its user derided.
In any case it showcased some poor scouting/reacting/defending from SKT. They seemed so shaky. I am disappoint.
On February 05 2012 13:21 HighTemper wrote: Cheese or not cheese debate????
Jeez, you guys are turning this into the other SC's forum. IMO, game 3 is not a cheese. I'm outta here...
Thank you streamers. C ya in KT vs ACE.
More or less what I wanted to say. I don't understand why a build, "cheese" or not, has to be regarded as inferior to another build and its user derided.
In any case it showcased some poor scouting/reacting/defending from SKT. They seemed so shaky. I am disappoint.
Jaehoon's build was very interesting and definitely not "cheesy" to say the least
Not happy that Bisu lost but overall I'm very happy that T8 won, especially Hoon and Tyson! Those two are constantly being derided as a reason for T8's failures by the ignorant masses however this is another notch to prove that they are truly A-class players
EDIT: And reading the last few pages kinda hurts me. renzy..........you don't know what cheese is. A lot of cheese is can be an all-in, a lot of all-ins can be cheese but that does not mean they are interchangeable.
Wow I guess I have been wrong about Jaehoon, he is really good. That was a sick build and execution, especially because he doesnt have much support from coaches or practice partners (afaik).
Of course when my team loses, I brand the opposing team's strategy as cheese to lower its value. And then I go on a rampage of useless explanations about what is cheese and what is not.
Did I succeed in putting down the other team's effort? Probably. Did I make myself look stupid? Yes.
On February 05 2012 20:08 J1.au wrote: It always makes me happy when Ssak is sent out because I just love watching him lose. I will never forget what he did!
On February 05 2012 20:08 J1.au wrote: It always makes me happy when Ssak is sent out because I just love watching him lose. I will never forget what he did!
On February 05 2012 21:39 Sprouter wrote: did the larvae JD wasted affect that game all? would an extra larvae have grown back before he could use it anyway?
When someone is 4-pooling or 5-pooling, he has enough larvae to waste one. So they are doing this to really show commentators: "Yes, I am doing this, so watch!"
On February 05 2012 21:39 Sprouter wrote: did the larvae JD wasted affect that game all? would an extra larvae have grown back before he could use it anyway?
Cancelling that larva doesnt affect the game at all, in fact you can cancel 2 larvas with that build just like Chojja did once, stating in the aftermatch interview that it doesnt change anything and it was simply to entertain the audience.
On February 05 2012 20:08 J1.au wrote: It always makes me happy when Ssak is sent out because I just love watching him lose. I will never forget what he did!
What did he do?
he beat flash in the PDPOP MSL
Are you sure? It's probably more like J1.au had to cover Ssak's tab when they had drinks together, and Ssak never paid him back. No way can it be a petty reason like someone lost a game or something, that would just be silly.
I would've liked to see a longer Jaedong game, glad he won though. Is it common to scout through the backside minerals like Bisu did on that map? I haven't been watching all the games. Nice timing attack by Jaehoon.
On February 05 2012 20:59 Renkaoru wrote: Of course when my team loses, I brand the opposing team's strategy as cheese to lower its value. And then I go on a rampage of useless explanations about what is cheese and what is not.
Did I succeed in putting down the other team's effort? Probably. Did I make myself look stupid? Yes.
On February 05 2012 20:59 Renkaoru wrote: Of course when my team loses, I brand the opposing team's strategy as cheese to lower its value. And then I go on a rampage of useless explanations about what is cheese and what is not.
Did I succeed in putting down the other team's effort? Probably. Did I make myself look stupid? Yes.
I always thought the larvae cancel was just because making the first larvae into a drone is just basic muscle memory so they just do it anyways or are just so used to doing it all the time.
On February 06 2012 19:58 Norada wrote: I always thought the larvae cancel was just because making the first larvae into a drone is just basic muscle memory so they just do it anyways or are just so used to doing it all the time.
No. He canceled the second egg. I think his build was just a sudden decision
On February 06 2012 19:58 Norada wrote: I always thought the larvae cancel was just because making the first larvae into a drone is just basic muscle memory so they just do it anyways or are just so used to doing it all the time.
No. He canceled the second egg. I think his build was just a sudden decision
Or you could just read the interview.
I have never seen a five pool without a drone cancel afaik. I dont know why every one is commenting on it.
Edit: oops thought this was the interview thread, sorry if I was snappy
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eP72o.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/niiGw.png)
2011-2012 Proleague Season 1/Round 2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ugUPM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ACzSe.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zqcYk.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QbpHJ.png)
Team Eight vs SK Telecom T1 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/uniforms/1.png){kind=icon}
Jaedong « Electric Circuit » 
Ssak
Tyson « Outlier » ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KQmps.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MsZ4J.png)
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((((((
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6YNOe.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070726221758/uncyclopedia/images/6/6a/Cheese.gif)
