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On July 10 2011 16:39 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:22 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:10 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:06 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:03 Ecrilon wrote:On July 10 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 15:58 aupstar wrote:That game almost makes me feel sorry for protoss..  Yeah, HTs and Archons imba, can defend ramps for like....forever -_- Defiler lurker, can defend ramps...forever. HTs can storm their way up there though  lurker defiler can get their way up there too Whats your point? Huh? HTs up the ramp > lurkers, HTs down the ramp > lurkers. My point is that there is no point in feeling "sorry" for Protoss. Unless it was directed towards Stats not playing the race that well. I feel sorry towards stats but my arguement was that both races have something for getting up there. And I'd argue lurker / sunken / ling / defiler at ramp being way more robust than zealot / archon / ht / cannon You would need a pylon/creep there though. But regarding static defense, sunkens are certainly better than cannons considering that swarm pretty much negates them. Sunkens would prove useful when you finally march up the ramp. Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh... Cracklings don't matter, lol. Archons > Cracklings. Also, on the other side of the ramp isn't unlimited space and when the density of units is too high, then storms would be even more devastating. And the one who is defending has less units there by the way. Otherwise a defense would be useless, right? (Not that it matters, more Zerg units means more Zerg units that die to storms.) And despite Protoss having better options to defend, I think it's fine for both races. So no need to feel sorry for either race which was the initial point of the discussion.
You forgot one thing, you need detection to kill the Lurkers and Protoss has 1 detection that is quite easy to kill. And Archons are very gas extensive, hell they consume more gas than Ultras. So no, in real situation Zergs have better chance to defend AND go up a ramp than Protoss. And the statement about felling sorry for Protoss is not invalid even if Protoss can defend and force up a ramp better than Zerg. SC doesn't involve 1 dimension only (and even in this 1 dimension, there are more ways to bust a ramp rather than Lurkers and HTs only, how about Muta, Guardian, Ultra?), there are a lot of them. You don't need to go up a ramp if you have 99999 Ultras and Lings to bust your enemy's front.
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What a glorious return against the evil empire.
Go STX, just one more time!
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On July 10 2011 16:58 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:39 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:22 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:10 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:06 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:03 Ecrilon wrote:On July 10 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 15:58 aupstar wrote:That game almost makes me feel sorry for protoss.. Yeah, HTs and Archons imba, can defend ramps for like....forever -_- Defiler lurker, can defend ramps...forever. HTs can storm their way up there though lurker defiler can get their way up there too Whats your point? Huh? HTs up the ramp > lurkers, HTs down the ramp > lurkers. My point is that there is no point in feeling "sorry" for Protoss. Unless it was directed towards Stats not playing the race that well. I feel sorry towards stats but my arguement was that both races have something for getting up there. And I'd argue lurker / sunken / ling / defiler at ramp being way more robust than zealot / archon / ht / cannon You would need a pylon/creep there though. But regarding static defense, sunkens are certainly better than cannons considering that swarm pretty much negates them. Sunkens would prove useful when you finally march up the ramp. On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh... Cracklings don't matter, lol. Archons > Cracklings. Also, on the other side of the ramp isn't unlimited space and when the density of units is too high, then storms would be even more devastating. And the one who is defending has less units there by the way. Otherwise a defense would be useless, right? (Not that it matters, more Zerg units means more Zerg units that die to storms.) And despite Protoss having better options to defend, I think it's fine for both races. So no need to feel sorry for either race which was the initial point of the discussion. You forgot one thing, you need detection to kill the Lurkers and Protoss has 1 detection that is quite easy to kill. And Archons are very gas extensive, hell they consume more gas than Ultras. So no, in real situation Zergs have better chance to defend AND go up a ramp than Protoss. And the statement about felling sorry for Protoss is not invalid even if Protoss can defend and force up a ramp better than Zerg. SC doesn't involve 1 dimension only (and even in this 1 dimension, there are more ways to bust a ramp rather than Lurkers and HTs only, how about Muta, Guardian, Ultra?), there are a lot of them. You don't need to go up a ramp if you have 99999 Ultras and Lings to bust your enemy's front.
I like how the guy that started this say THAT GAME and now all those Zerg units and "Situation" are being brought up.
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On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh...
well idk reavers + high templar is super scary to engage ever let alone if the protoss is being the one on the defense. ^^
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Wow, Flash's vP rate falls below 70% :D (It is obviously still the highest and craziest stats he has)
Hope KT advance.
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On July 10 2011 16:58 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:39 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:22 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:10 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:06 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:03 Ecrilon wrote:On July 10 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 15:58 aupstar wrote:That game almost makes me feel sorry for protoss.. Yeah, HTs and Archons imba, can defend ramps for like....forever -_- Defiler lurker, can defend ramps...forever. HTs can storm their way up there though lurker defiler can get their way up there too Whats your point? Huh? HTs up the ramp > lurkers, HTs down the ramp > lurkers. My point is that there is no point in feeling "sorry" for Protoss. Unless it was directed towards Stats not playing the race that well. I feel sorry towards stats but my arguement was that both races have something for getting up there. And I'd argue lurker / sunken / ling / defiler at ramp being way more robust than zealot / archon / ht / cannon You would need a pylon/creep there though. But regarding static defense, sunkens are certainly better than cannons considering that swarm pretty much negates them. Sunkens would prove useful when you finally march up the ramp. On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh... Cracklings don't matter, lol. Archons > Cracklings. Also, on the other side of the ramp isn't unlimited space and when the density of units is too high, then storms would be even more devastating. And the one who is defending has less units there by the way. Otherwise a defense would be useless, right? (Not that it matters, more Zerg units means more Zerg units that die to storms.) And despite Protoss having better options to defend, I think it's fine for both races. So no need to feel sorry for either race which was the initial point of the discussion. You forgot one thing, you need detection to kill the Lurkers and Protoss has 1 detection that is quite easy to kill. And Archons are very gas extensive, hell they consume more gas than Ultras. So no, in real situation Zergs have better chance to defend AND go up a ramp than Protoss. And the statement about felling sorry for Protoss is not invalid even if Protoss can defend and force up a ramp better than Zerg. SC doesn't involve 1 dimension only (and even in this 1 dimension, there are more ways to bust a ramp rather than Lurkers and HTs only, how about Muta, Guardian, Ultra?), there are a lot of them. You don't need to go up a ramp if you have 99999 Ultras and Lings to bust your enemy's front.
You see where the lurker spines are coming from though. Normally, you don't fly your observer right in the enemy territory and you always have dragoons to kill the scourges. Hydras don't matter in this scenario and Mutas...depends, high risk - high reward? Well, most of the time you have 2-3 observers, so the risk is even higher. You don't need _that_ many Archons though and considering the damage it does at the ramp, it's definitely worth it.
What else would he be feeling sorry for though? I can also feel sorry for Zerg because stacked Sairs break the game since Zerg are supposed to have air dominance(at least where scourge are present). Stacked Sairs kill Scourge so easily, even when you attack from three different sides and it's not like you can easily target the different ones either(should you somehow be able to make it in). And air dominance leads to free Storm/Reaver/DT drops. Bisu's games and Snow's series against Jaedong displayed it pretty well. Most Protoss players just aren't good enough to play it properly(don't pay enough attention to the Sairs, for example). So no matter how good the Zerg is, he can't do anything.
At least here you can feel sorry for a player who played well while in the Stats game, you feel sorry for a race which was represented by a not-in-form Stats. What I want to say, feeling sorry is dumb(regarding a race) because it can go either way. Rather, feel sorry for someone like Sea who ended up in the group of death in last season's MSL.
Weren't you talking about the gas issue earlier? Sairs against Muta/Guardian, easy. You didn't say the Zerg player has Hydras and even if he has, then there are still HTs(and microed Sairs).
On July 10 2011 17:23 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:58 chisuri wrote:On July 10 2011 16:39 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:22 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:10 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:06 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:03 Ecrilon wrote:On July 10 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 15:58 aupstar wrote:That game almost makes me feel sorry for protoss.. Yeah, HTs and Archons imba, can defend ramps for like....forever -_- Defiler lurker, can defend ramps...forever. HTs can storm their way up there though lurker defiler can get their way up there too Whats your point? Huh? HTs up the ramp > lurkers, HTs down the ramp > lurkers. My point is that there is no point in feeling "sorry" for Protoss. Unless it was directed towards Stats not playing the race that well. I feel sorry towards stats but my arguement was that both races have something for getting up there. And I'd argue lurker / sunken / ling / defiler at ramp being way more robust than zealot / archon / ht / cannon You would need a pylon/creep there though. But regarding static defense, sunkens are certainly better than cannons considering that swarm pretty much negates them. Sunkens would prove useful when you finally march up the ramp. On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh... Cracklings don't matter, lol. Archons > Cracklings. Also, on the other side of the ramp isn't unlimited space and when the density of units is too high, then storms would be even more devastating. And the one who is defending has less units there by the way. Otherwise a defense would be useless, right? (Not that it matters, more Zerg units means more Zerg units that die to storms.) And despite Protoss having better options to defend, I think it's fine for both races. So no need to feel sorry for either race which was the initial point of the discussion. You forgot one thing, you need detection to kill the Lurkers and Protoss has 1 detection that is quite easy to kill. And Archons are very gas extensive, hell they consume more gas than Ultras. So no, in real situation Zergs have better chance to defend AND go up a ramp than Protoss. And the statement about felling sorry for Protoss is not invalid even if Protoss can defend and force up a ramp better than Zerg. SC doesn't involve 1 dimension only (and even in this 1 dimension, there are more ways to bust a ramp rather than Lurkers and HTs only, how about Muta, Guardian, Ultra?), there are a lot of them. You don't need to go up a ramp if you have 99999 Ultras and Lings to bust your enemy's front. I like how the guy that started this say THAT GAME and now all those Zerg units and "Situation" are being brought up.
Haha, you are right.
On July 10 2011 17:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:32 Vasoline73 wrote:
How can anyone say protoss can defend better than zerg O_O. Defilers + lurks + sunks + cracklings? Hyvaa obviously very talented v P and Stats lost fair and square but uhhhhhhh... well idk reavers + high templar is super scary to engage ever let alone if the protoss is being the one on the defense. ^^
Almost forgot about reavers, yeah -_-
At least the Zerg players know what I'm talking about ^_^
But anyway, let's end this silly discussion since there is nothing really to gain from.
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man. I opened the results and went " waaaahH???" I didn't mistakenly open up the predictions tab??"
Must watch the Vods later, as Hyvaa vs Stats seemed insane and Action threw his game away after reading the entire LR thread.
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So delight to see Zergs defending the imba PvZ against protoss players. So sweet revenge for a past zerg cries against terrans XD
Damn, this is not funny. Whats wrong with the protoss (balance?)
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51065 Posts
whatever,we'll rape STX on the 12th ezpz.
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Damn wtf. I spoiled the lineup for myself and saw it only went 4 games and assumed KT swept STX 4-0 especially since Flash was matched up against Shuttle but nope it was KT that got owned.
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Lol what line-ups and results were totally unexpected.
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Wow, STX doesn't even need the good players. Ace game is gonna be hella exciting.
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On July 10 2011 19:58 Ravencruiser wrote:
Lol what line-ups and results were totally unexpected.
Yea, reading the line-ups I was like 95% KT and 5% STX.
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Wow...was not expecting this score.
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Well, this really sets up an interesting final series. Two easy wins traded. The coaches have much to think about.
On July 10 2011 17:03 Elefanto wrote:
What a glorious return against the evil empire.
Go STX, just one more time!
Yeah sure, the evil empire with 1 teammate suffering from cancer, 1 teammate suffering from a debilitating wrist condition and 1 teammate recently retired. That's just soo evil! Typical SKT fan response, i.e. petty and immature
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On July 10 2011 22:44 tyCe wrote:Well, this really sets up an interesting final series. Two easy wins traded. The coaches have much to think about. Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 17:03 Elefanto wrote:
What a glorious return against the evil empire.
Go STX, just one more time! Yeah sure, the evil empire with 1 teammate suffering from cancer, 1 teammate suffering from a debilitating wrist condition and 1 teammate recently retired. That's just soo evil! Typical SKT fan response, i.e. petty and immature
yeah how can a team be evil when they have the HERO!
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Sanya12364 Posts
On July 10 2011 16:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 15:57 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Screw you STX. You decide to stop sucking when Oz's playoff hopes are on the line and then go back to sucking once you make the playoffs. :/
Oz vs KT would've been so much more exciting. Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 21:26 Lucumo wrote:
I also think that OZ vs KT would have been more exciting. Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 06:12 Ryusei-R1 wrote:You're the delusional one. Oz would've done a much better job than STX ^_____________________________^
CSheep Hwaiting!!!
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Bisutopia19364 Posts
On July 10 2011 16:22 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:10 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:On July 10 2011 16:06 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 16:03 Ecrilon wrote:On July 10 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote:On July 10 2011 15:58 aupstar wrote:That game almost makes me feel sorry for protoss.. Yeah, HTs and Archons imba, can defend ramps for like....forever -_- Defiler lurker, can defend ramps...forever. HTs can storm their way up there though lurker defiler can get their way up there too Whats your point? Huh? HTs up the ramp > lurkers, HTs down the ramp > lurkers. My point is that there is no point in feeling "sorry" for Protoss. Unless it was directed towards Stats not playing the race that well. I feel sorry towards stats but my arguement was that both races have something for getting up there. And I'd argue lurker / sunken / ling / defiler at ramp being way more robust than zealot / archon / ht / cannon
LOL, watch the Bisu vs Roro game from last month. That will show u how hard it is for protoss to get up ramps. Example is referring to the end of that match.
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KT Rolster will bounce back I hope o.O
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EPT
