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Hello all,
Further whining about the Ace match will result in strict punishments.
Time stamp 05:08 KST.
Thank you.
Empyrean |
On May 06 2011 14:13 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 12:33 Elefanto wrote:
If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it. Well, you cut off a stream of reinforcements by having troops in the main, and it's not like it's particularly easy to attack into unfavorable positions for the zerg. Plus they lose their main and maybe their natural that way. Remember, zerg units do way more damage& move faster than protoss units(so able to take down bases faster), AND zerg units tend to be more efficient than protoss ones in smaller numbers, so the divide & conquer strategy has some fundamental problems for protoss
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Congratulation Stars. You played well. Till the next time.
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After 3 years of watch Pro starcraft no game blew my mind as much as game 7.
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I still think the Baby-Jaedong game of a few days earlier was better, but that's not knocking this game at all. It was fantastic.
Bisu played brilliantly, Zero played better. The real winners were the fans.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 07 2011 01:45 BrownBear wrote:
I still think the Baby-Jaedong game of a few days earlier was better, but that's not knocking this game at all. It was fantastic.
Bisu played brilliantly, Zero played better. The real winners were the fans.
Agree 100% with this post.
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On May 06 2011 20:57 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 14:13 Lightwip wrote:On May 06 2011 12:33 Elefanto wrote:
If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it. Well, you cut off a stream of reinforcements by having troops in the main, and it's not like it's particularly easy to attack into unfavorable positions for the zerg. Plus they lose their main and maybe their natural that way. Remember, zerg units do way more damage& move faster than protoss units(so able to take down bases faster), AND zerg units tend to be more efficient than protoss ones in smaller numbers, so the divide & conquer strategy has some fundamental problems for protoss
They still have to attack into a mass of cannons, probably backed by high templar and eventually reinforcements.
If it could hit before ultralisks are ready, it could be a brutally effective strategy to stop turtles. Not that I'm sure it can though.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 07 2011 12:46 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 20:57 xarthaz wrote:On May 06 2011 14:13 Lightwip wrote:On May 06 2011 12:33 Elefanto wrote:
If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it. Well, you cut off a stream of reinforcements by having troops in the main, and it's not like it's particularly easy to attack into unfavorable positions for the zerg. Plus they lose their main and maybe their natural that way. Remember, zerg units do way more damage& move faster than protoss units(so able to take down bases faster), AND zerg units tend to be more efficient than protoss ones in smaller numbers, so the divide & conquer strategy has some fundamental problems for protoss They still have to attack into a mass of cannons, probably backed by high templar and eventually reinforcements. If it could hit before ultralisks are ready, it could be a brutally effective strategy to stop turtles. Not that I'm sure it can though.
IMO you have to invest too much gas that would drain your HT/Archon/DT count vs the incoming ultras to get arbs at the higher levels. It's like banking on reaver scarabs - if it duds, you're screwed because you spent so much money and time on that tech. To have a 150 energy arb before ultra tech would have to start way earlier because of the heavy gas cost and the high energy requirement for recall.
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On May 06 2011 11:12 Holgerius wrote:Flying used Arbs with great success in a game on HBR. Actually when I think about it I'm not sure it was ''great success''. XD I just remember that it was awesome to see. 
Anyone got the VOD for this? Think Flying's tried Arbiter play in several PvZs
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On May 07 2011 17:47 Jragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 11:12 Holgerius wrote:Flying used Arbs with great success in a game on HBR. Actually when I think about it I'm not sure it was ''great success''. XD I just remember that it was awesome to see. Anyone got the VOD for this? Think Flying's tried Arbiter play in several PvZs
I haven't got the vods but you can look them up
Flying vs Effort @ HBR
Flying vs Yarnc @ Polaris Rhapsody
Flying vs effort @ destination? i dont recall
+ Show Spoiler +
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The tears of SKT and Bisu fanboys keeps my skin looking young and feeds my soul.
Seriously though wp zero and stars, now protoss can get rolled by queens as well as terran.
Protoss meeting comic series anyone?
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On May 04 2011 20:14 ~chut~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 19:47 ffreakk wrote:
I don't know know why even the Veterans (Milkis, in this case) are trying to deny this Z>P>T>Z thing which i think everyone have known for ages.. The "imbalance" is very slight, and its about as balanced as a game can get, but certainly (almost) all Protosses know that Z is their most difficult match-up..
On the match itself, Bisu played well, but so did Zero.. Someone just have to lose eventually, so too bad T_T. Im tempted to blame Neo-Aztec, but i ll shut up :p.
GG Stars. Maybe because we had that stupid argument over and over for years. PvZ is hard, harder than PvT, but it's not imbalanced. It's not because Bisu loses against a Z from time to time that everybody needs to get mad "omfg pvz imba, bisu lost !!!!".
Actually, I feel its pretty imbalanced on that map. Yes the stats say 50 / 50, but you have to look at the games too. Most of the Protoss wins have been in the early midgame with that mass zealot suplemented by archons and corsairs thing bisu has been doing. Past the midgame, however, PvZ on that map looks really tough.
One of the problems (imbalances you could say) with Zerg, and the one that has given map makers the most restrictions, is that a 4 gas Zerg whos teched to ultras with good upgrades and hasn't taken damage to his economy is absurdely strong, like, near unbeatable some times. Of course an awesome thing with BW is that all the races have very powerful tools, and you can balance any matchup out with the correct map. The map fails to do so, and the turtle 4 bases with lurker / sunken etc --> ultralisks is extremely effective because its too easy for Zerg to secure those bases. And once you do get ultras out, which is the point where Zerg makes that huge swing in their game and starts asserting map control, you have 2 more super easy bases to secure. Bisu did a lot of damage with that templar drop near the end, but at that point it wasn't enough and it was too late.
That's basically how this game played out, only bisu made the problem worse by continuing to go for his mass zealot with almost no dragoon style even though zero kept making more and more lurkers, slowing solidifying against that protoss composition.
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EPT
