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Hello all,
Further whining about the Ace match will result in strict punishments.
Time stamp 05:08 KST.
Thank you.
Empyrean |
On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units
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On May 05 2011 16:53 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units
I was also thinking this, ArvickHero, particularly since Bisu took the 3 o'clock directly above Zero's main. As you said, he could not have been wanting for money, and although Zerg is more mobile in moving to defend than Terran, they will also struggle more to overcome the sudden emergence of a Protoss deathball in their base, robbed as they would be of the ability to flank. Zergs also have less buildings - were the Toss to focus down the Hive and even one or two key tech buildings like the defiler mound and ultra cavern, the Zerg would be hugely crippled.
On a map like this where the Zerg is turtling and there is nowhere clean for the Protoss to attack, I reckon it's a tactic worth thought.
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On May 05 2011 16:53 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units
While that may be true, if you get the nydus canal, the zerg has to approach a 50 supply protoss army from a single choke(which can be stormed). I think it's certainly an idea worth trying.
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only watched the ace match wich was pretty awesome :D
+ Show Spoiler +empyrean thanks for the spoilers  when i read about the whining i just knew bisu lost
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10387 Posts
On May 05 2011 16:53 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units
doesn't matter if Zerg cleans up the attack, if Protoss can take out the hatcheries and tech buildings in that base, its already cost-effective.. Zerg may clean it up, but their reinforcement rate will be crippled due to less hatcheries, potentially lost tech, and of course losing a mining base altogether. Protoss in Bisu's situation, already being rich enough as is, will just replenish his army supply and then abuse the timing created to take out another base with the conventional ground army style.
This is something that you'd have to plan in advance of course.. if you see a 4base turtle play being set up, then you should prepare by placing an arbiter tribunal (in the nat maybe, to hide it) quickly to research energy+recall, and build a 1-2 arbiters so they can build up energy. Should the Protoss be unable to break the Zerg with the conventional Dragoon/Templar/Zealot mid-game timing, the Recall should be used soon after, or before the fifth/sixth go online..
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On May 06 2011 06:41 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:53 xarthaz wrote:On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units doesn't matter if Zerg cleans up the attack, if Protoss can take out the hatcheries and tech buildings in that base, its already cost-effective.. Zerg may clean it up, but their reinforcement rate will be crippled due to less hatcheries, potentially lost tech, and of course losing a mining base altogether. Protoss in Bisu's situation, already being rich enough as is, will just replenish his army supply and then abuse the timing created to take out another base with the conventional ground army style. This is something that you'd have to plan in advance of course.. if you see a 4base turtle play being set up, then you should prepare by placing an arbiter tribunal (in the nat maybe, to hide it) quickly to research energy+recall, and build a 1-2 arbiters so they can build up energy. Should the Protoss be unable to break the Zerg with the conventional Dragoon/Templar/Zealot mid-game timing, the Recall should be used soon after, or before the fifth/sixth go online..
An Sneaky Arbiter isn't a good idea for PvZ because of all the overlords lying around the map and arbiters can be chased down easily by scourges. It's a really big gamble with very minimal returns since Protoss units aren't known for their DPS. And if you were to apply arbs on that game, queens could just ensare arbs with scourges.
The biggest flaw in arbiter play in PvZ is the cost and speed of movement of the Arbiter. And hatcheries aren't the top of the expensive unit producing buildings on the list. And add that to the slow DPS of the protoss units.
Recall play in PvT is viable if because Arbiter is a versatile unit in the match up. Stasis is a good spell for PvT. It's cloaking field can actually has a good effect on the flow of battle, especially if you snipe vessels. Also, the main thing about recall is that it gives you a breather from the front lines even if you only recall a small amount of units. Cracklings would rip apart a recalled army, even if the recalled army gets a decent amount of unit.
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I skipped throw the vid and i can point what made Bisu lose.
He had too few gates for 5bases. His army distribution was okay but he was always behind in the army count. He also didnt picked the best army composition to fight that zerg army. I just kept asking myself why did he kept on massing zealots. That one reaver push on the uphill was weird as hell also. I thought he wanted to throw away his army(and he did). Previously he tried to push on the middle left side where he lost most of his army to lurkers. I think he didnt pick the best places to fight and pretty much screwed himself with that.
Bisus micro was great at times and that shuttel harass was very well played.
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Arbiter recalls are not as good simply for one reason, zerg production buildings are not centralized.
Against terran a recall in the factory line can be the end of the match. Against zerg, they can stream units from any base and counter. With Terran all your production is shot once the units get into your factory line
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Go for the hive and tech. That's a game ending equivalent.
Me? Everytime I watch the two fight, Zero silly rapes Bisu.
And Arbiters are totally viable in PvZ. It's not like you are making a billion corsairs and then losing them then switching to arbiter. Who has air control will vary game to game but there's no reason why an arbiter couldn't show up and be a boss when Protoss does.
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On May 06 2011 08:59 AppleTart wrote:
Arbiter recalls are not as good simply for one reason, zerg production buildings are not centralized.
Against terran a recall in the factory line can be the end of the match. Against zerg, they can stream units from any base and counter. With Terran all your production is shot once the units get into your factory line
But their tech is extremely centralized; generally one building per unit, and even worse for spire units. Take out one of the higher tier tech buildings and the Zerg is denied that unit for a considerable period of time.
Are Zerg able to build Hive tech units without a Hive but if they still have the Hive-level buildings e.g. defiler mound?
Also, if a Protoss is as good at keeping their corsairs alive into the mid-late game as Bisu is and the Zerg neglects overlord speed, the arbiter cloaking could pose real problems once the recalled ball is in the Zerg base. Sounds like the perfect new PvZ revolution for the Revolutionist, where all units convert to dark templar!
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On May 06 2011 10:09 Jragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:59 AppleTart wrote:
Arbiter recalls are not as good simply for one reason, zerg production buildings are not centralized.
Against terran a recall in the factory line can be the end of the match. Against zerg, they can stream units from any base and counter. With Terran all your production is shot once the units get into your factory line But their tech is extremely centralized; generally one building per unit, and even worse for spire units. Take out one of the higher tier tech buildings and the Zerg is denied that unit for a considerable period of time. Are Zerg able to build Hive tech units without a Hive but if they still have the Hive-level buildings e.g. defiler mound? Also, if a Protoss is as good at keeping their corsairs alive into the mid-late game as Bisu is and the Zerg neglects overlord speed, the arbiter cloaking could pose real problems once the recalled ball is in the Zerg base. Sounds like the perfect new PvZ revolution for the Revolutionist, where all units convert to dark templar!
If I was a zerg on 6-8 bases and got recalled, I'd build a mound and a cavern in every base before my hive is focused down. PvZ is not TvZ, zerg can afford to lose a lot more stuff. Also massing sairs against hive tech (which he will have by the time you have arb tech and energy) for air control in order to get the biters through is a risky venture: devourer/muta will shred you airforce while cheapass cracklings are ripping your weakened ground apart. If you try to sneak biters with no cover, he will have scourge for shuttles, so.. Personally I am grateful whenever a P opponent goes arbs against me. No fancy gas units in ground army=drown them in defiler supported cracks.
You will not be able to hide it against a decent opponent either. And a tribunal in PvZ really stands out.
edit: zerg will always, always have ovie speed at that stage of the game. Always.
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Flying used Arbs with great success in a game on HBR.
Actually when I think about it I'm not sure it was ''great success''. XD I just remember that it was awesome to see. 
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Actually, arbs could be good for getting around a heavily fortified zerg front with 8 sunkens and 5 lurkers or something, even if you do put 50 supply in the base, which is not so expendable as it is PvT. At least you can hold the choke into the base with storms and reavers pretty easily though. If properly executed, I could see arbiters being a bit annoying.
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I only watched ace match. Really good game! Zero played exceptionally well, though I sort of wanted to see Bisu do his elevator trick that he used to CRUSH Soulkey's 4 base sunken turtle some time in the past.
Also, don't nydus canals negate arbiters? 0.0
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On May 06 2011 11:47 holyhalo5 wrote:
Also, don't nydus canals negate arbiters? 0.0
You mean those low health tunnels that are easily stormed and easily destroyed?
No, not really.
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Oh wow just watched the ace match, was epic!
That shuttle and it's crew in the last 5 minutes must have killed at least 30 drones.
And the queens worked this time
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10387 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:18 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:41 ArvickHero wrote:On May 05 2011 16:53 xarthaz wrote:On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. recalls, even when dont get stopped, are way less effective against zerg than terran, because of the insane speed of lings and ultras. its not like pvt where terran takes ages to crawl back into his bases with his slow ass tanks to stop the recall. zerg can zap right back with their fast units doesn't matter if Zerg cleans up the attack, if Protoss can take out the hatcheries and tech buildings in that base, its already cost-effective.. Zerg may clean it up, but their reinforcement rate will be crippled due to less hatcheries, potentially lost tech, and of course losing a mining base altogether. Protoss in Bisu's situation, already being rich enough as is, will just replenish his army supply and then abuse the timing created to take out another base with the conventional ground army style. This is something that you'd have to plan in advance of course.. if you see a 4base turtle play being set up, then you should prepare by placing an arbiter tribunal (in the nat maybe, to hide it) quickly to research energy+recall, and build a 1-2 arbiters so they can build up energy. Should the Protoss be unable to break the Zerg with the conventional Dragoon/Templar/Zealot mid-game timing, the Recall should be used soon after, or before the fifth/sixth go online.. An Sneaky Arbiter isn't a good idea for PvZ because of all the overlords lying around the map and arbiters can be chased down easily by scourges. It's a really big gamble with very minimal returns since Protoss units aren't known for their DPS. And if you were to apply arbs on that game, queens could just ensare arbs with scourges. The biggest flaw in arbiter play in PvZ is the cost and speed of movement of the Arbiter. And hatcheries aren't the top of the expensive unit producing buildings on the list. And add that to the slow DPS of the protoss units. Recall play in PvT is viable if because Arbiter is a versatile unit in the match up. Stasis is a good spell for PvT. It's cloaking field can actually has a good effect on the flow of battle, especially if you snipe vessels. Also, the main thing about recall is that it gives you a breather from the front lines even if you only recall a small amount of units. Cracklings would rip apart a recalled army, even if the recalled army gets a decent amount of unit.
Looking at Bisu's situation in that game, he still had a healthy amount of corsairs to maintain air control and could've easily slipped in Arbiters multiple times. I already know of why Arbiters aren't good in PvZ conventionally, which is why I pointed out that it only has a small timing window to be really effective (before the fifth/sixth become functional, since losing a base when you 4-base turtle is almost game-ending as a Zerg).
On May 06 2011 10:53 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 10:09 Jragon wrote:On May 06 2011 08:59 AppleTart wrote:
Arbiter recalls are not as good simply for one reason, zerg production buildings are not centralized.
Against terran a recall in the factory line can be the end of the match. Against zerg, they can stream units from any base and counter. With Terran all your production is shot once the units get into your factory line But their tech is extremely centralized; generally one building per unit, and even worse for spire units. Take out one of the higher tier tech buildings and the Zerg is denied that unit for a considerable period of time. Are Zerg able to build Hive tech units without a Hive but if they still have the Hive-level buildings e.g. defiler mound? Also, if a Protoss is as good at keeping their corsairs alive into the mid-late game as Bisu is and the Zerg neglects overlord speed, the arbiter cloaking could pose real problems once the recalled ball is in the Zerg base. Sounds like the perfect new PvZ revolution for the Revolutionist, where all units convert to dark templar! If I was a zerg on 6-8 bases and got recalled, I'd build a mound and a cavern in every base before my hive is focused down. PvZ is not TvZ, zerg can afford to lose a lot more stuff. Also massing sairs against hive tech (which he will have by the time you have arb tech and energy) for air control in order to get the biters through is a risky venture: devourer/muta will shred you airforce while cheapass cracklings are ripping your weakened ground apart. If you try to sneak biters with no cover, he will have scourge for shuttles, so.. Personally I am grateful whenever a P opponent goes arbs against me. No fancy gas units in ground army=drown them in defiler supported cracks. You will not be able to hide it against a decent opponent either. And a tribunal in PvZ really stands out. edit: zerg will always, always have ovie speed at that stage of the game. Always.
Arbiters are not a late-late game option, I see it as a mid-late game strategy to cripple the Zerg before they get any further from 4-bases so that you can take them out with your replenished army. In PvZ, good protoss will have a strong corsair count anyways, so its easy to clear a path for your Arbiters. If the Zerg has 6-8 bases, then Protoss shouldn't recall imo.
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If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it.
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10387 Posts
On May 06 2011 12:33 Elefanto wrote:
If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it.
you don't need to recall a huge chunk of your army, just enough to take out that base lol (not much). Plus, at that point in the game every Protoss expo will have a good number of cannons+HT/Reaver to defend easily.
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On May 06 2011 12:33 Elefanto wrote:
If you recall, whats hindering the zerg from just sacking the recalled base / s, and counter attack?
You give up your map control, and he can kill bases / tech where ever he wants.
I mean protoss needs to hold the mid, and expand towards the zerg to take out his bases and defend his own. If you recall, you completely eliminate that purpose.
I'm not sure if its worth it.
Well, you cut off a stream of reinforcements by having troops in the main, and it's not like it's particularly easy to attack into unfavorable positions for the zerg. Plus they lose their main and maybe their natural that way.
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EPT
