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Hello all,
Further whining about the Ace match will result in strict punishments.
Time stamp 05:08 KST.
Thank you.
Empyrean |
5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i dont know why milkis keeps on trying to defend his position
you could go up to progamers themselves and ask and they will say zvp is imba
in every game bisu plays commentators go on about how zvp is imba
match up stats say zvp is imba
All I'm saying is simple: ZvP, at the current stage, favors Protoss over Zerg. It is cyclical, after all. Dunno why that is something that is so hard to swallow for people.
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On May 04 2011 18:39 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:35 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 18:17 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 18:13 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:53 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:
[quote]
zvp is imba...wtf you on about
if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg
thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast
and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win"
its boring and not motivational for the players either ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Milkis/PLWriteup03/racechart.png) Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well. Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season. Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg. You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment. Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that. The point is: you're wrong. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan. So it's like when a player contributes like 1/3 the wins for his race that makes the ratio nearly 50-50 so that the match up is not imba? So when Savior was at his peak and Bisu won him 3-0, this match up and Savior in particular were not imba? What kinda logic is that? As far as I remember Kal was eliminated by a Zerg in MSL. He lost to JD quite, uhm sometimes and they're both the top players of their races at that time. Stat had some kind of hot run in WL and all, but how did he end up in WL playoff and SL? I recalled he lost to...Zergs? How many wins of Stork were coming from non-JD and non-Hydra games? How is he now? How many wins of top Zergs players were coming from games vs Bisu and Stork? JD had a 9-6 stat, kinda weak hah? Still 60%. But 3 of that were the loss vs Bisu, 2 from Stork. So out of 10 games vs other Protoss players, who I think must include some big names, he is 9-1. My point is Bisu is ridiculous, he is Flash of vZ match up (he is indeed better than Flash now in this match up). Take him into account and say that PvZ is balance now is kinda, I don't know, injustice. And one last thing, plz don't include some ridiculous reasons and logics in your argument. You have two points: I'm twisting my arguments and I'm wrong to prove that You are right, and I'm twisting my arguments? And your conclusion: no matter what I say, you don't care, you are right and I'm twisting my words because I'm wrong and i'm twisting my words? if you don't want to argue, don't want to read my reasons, plz tell me so. It doesn't mean you admit that I'm right and you're wrong, you know. But it certainly doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Edit: Afrotoss and Pure and Sun are my jokes, don't take them seriously if, you know, you want to read my post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size For God's sake I just finished my Statistic course, don't need to wiki me. The problem here is one of the "sample" is too extreme that it need 10 other "sample" to compensate to make up the result of the population. And the sizes of the samples are different, Bisu played 40 games until now, most Protoss don't play that much. And you should take total ZvP matches in the history to have a more accurate results. The result in this season, especially the first period and PL in particular, doesn't stand for the nature of the match up. It's very much like the 2008 period, 6 dragons remember? But now Flash and JD are tearing them apart. That's why we don't take some results in some months in some special conditions to make a conclusion for something lasts much longer and more general than that. Take it as a whole. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_effects_estimatorAlso: Reread your previous post and some of the conclusions you've drawn and then reread the sample size wiki article again!
Don't understand that. And the inputs are kinda random, depends on the top players's conditions, their health, their personal issues, maps. So let take the whole population and see what is the result.
OK so take Bisu and Stork and Hydra and JD in the whole, and the result is? Remember even if it's slightly different like 52%-54% favorite to one side, it's imba.
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On May 04 2011 18:36 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:24 Seraphic wrote:
Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is. We all agree that Bisu is ridiculous, nobody can't disagree with that. The point is whether ZvP imba or not. (the previous point was whether Zero played spectacularly or not, but it's long over now)
Oh wow. "all", "nobody". Is this a religion? Some very absolute words going on here. There is nothing ridiculous about Bisu. He is very good, no more, no less. Now let us all join hands and brace for the sky falling.
-__-
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On May 04 2011 18:51 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:36 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 18:24 Seraphic wrote:
Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is. We all agree that Bisu is ridiculous, nobody can't disagree with that. The point is whether ZvP imba or not. (the previous point was whether Zero played spectacularly or not, but it's long over now) Oh wow. "all", "nobody". Is this a religion? Some very absolute words going on here. There is nothing ridiculous about Bisu. He is very good, no more, no less. Now let us all join hands and brace for the sky falling. -__-
I mean who is the best PvZ now, and ever?
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Estonia4504 Posts
For the first time in a long while, I can't wait to catch the VOD-s of a SKT game!
And I can't wait to hear how certain especially annoying Bisu fans will whine about this. ^^
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On May 04 2011 18:44 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i dont know why milkis keeps on trying to defend his position
you could go up to progamers themselves and ask and they will say zvp is imba
in every game bisu plays commentators go on about how zvp is imba
match up stats say zvp is imba All I'm saying is simple: ZvP, at the current stage, favors Protoss over Zerg. It is cyclical, after all. Dunno why that is something that is so hard to swallow for people.
The current stage IS favoring Z in ZvP so that it can compensate for the first period of the season when Protoss destroyed Zergs. remember when Protoss have better stat in this match up in PL and SLs? Now not anymore.
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When Bisu doesn't win two, SKT seems a lot more vincible.
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On May 04 2011 17:59 _Quasar_ wrote:
BTW, am I the only one who thinks that 1-2 queens should be built there along with those mutas and scourges, to prevent corsairs from running away from muta/scourge? That could be very good for zerg with this build, and devastating for protoss.
If zergs massively started to do this with that 4 base muta build, then for sure protoss would need that "special meeting" XD
I saw it as more of an act of showmanship which he could afford since he was ahead. At that level of play every fart of gas is crucial for a zerg and spending it on tech which might be of little use is risky and it's no wonder the most opt for an extra pair of cold hard lurker spines instead.
Won't deny the awesome of a cloud of sairs getting owned by muta/scourage/ensnare though 
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 18:56 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:44 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i dont know why milkis keeps on trying to defend his position
you could go up to progamers themselves and ask and they will say zvp is imba
in every game bisu plays commentators go on about how zvp is imba
match up stats say zvp is imba All I'm saying is simple: ZvP, at the current stage, favors Protoss over Zerg. It is cyclical, after all. Dunno why that is something that is so hard to swallow for people. The current stage IS favoring Z in ZvP so that it can compensate for the first period of the season when Protoss destroyed Zergs. remember when Protoss have better stat in this match up in PL and SLs? Now not anymore.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=leagues&id=710&part=games&matchup=ZvP&from_year=2011&from_month=4&from_day=22&to_year=2011&to_month=5&to_day=3&action=Update
Basically you just keep pulling out really weird arguments without backing it up with any numbers, statistics, or anything. You keep saying "Look at this one incident, therefore I am right" despite the many other things that point in other directions.
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On May 04 2011 18:52 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:51 hellbound wrote:On May 04 2011 18:36 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 18:24 Seraphic wrote:
Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is. We all agree that Bisu is ridiculous, nobody can't disagree with that. The point is whether ZvP imba or not. (the previous point was whether Zero played spectacularly or not, but it's long over now) Oh wow. "all", "nobody". Is this a religion? Some very absolute words going on here. There is nothing ridiculous about Bisu. He is very good, no more, no less. Now let us all join hands and brace for the sky falling. -__- I mean who is the best PvZ now, and ever?
All the top players are the best that have ever been. BW is still moving forward. Don't see how being best at one matchup makes one ridiculous.
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On May 04 2011 19:05 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:52 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 18:51 hellbound wrote:On May 04 2011 18:36 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 18:24 Seraphic wrote:
Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is. We all agree that Bisu is ridiculous, nobody can't disagree with that. The point is whether ZvP imba or not. (the previous point was whether Zero played spectacularly or not, but it's long over now) Oh wow. "all", "nobody". Is this a religion? Some very absolute words going on here. There is nothing ridiculous about Bisu. He is very good, no more, no less. Now let us all join hands and brace for the sky falling. -__- I mean who is the best PvZ now, and ever? All the top players are the best that have ever been. BW is still moving forward. Don't see how being best at one matchup makes one ridiculous.
Really? Why not? He's ridiculously good at PvZ. Far, far better than the next best. His winrate is 70% lifetime. It's pretty surprising when he loses. I'm just not seeing what's not ridiculous, unless you set the standard to impossible.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/710_Shinhan10-11_Proleague
It's 67-61 ZvP now in PL, which is 52% favored Zerg.
Your current stage is less than 1 month (22/4-3/5)? So you should tell me, in 2 recent weeks the match up is favored Protoss, yes or no. Then the answer is...yes (10-11 ZvP). Congrazt. Why bring some complicated Statistic thing here in the first place? And it has nothing to do with ZvP as a whole, right? It's just the current stage.
And I don't say I was right. I just ask for the stat because I can't find it myself and your opinion when you look at it. But whatever, I wasted some time here.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
oh my god it is 52% favoring Z!!!ZvP has to be imbalanced!!!
Whatever can Protoss do?
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On May 04 2011 19:30 BLinD-RawR wrote:
oh my god it is 52% favoring Z!!!ZvP has to be imbalanced!!!
Whatever can Protoss do?
They can allways play vs Terran and get a free win!
jk jk!
Stars Fighting!
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I don't know know why even the Veterans (Milkis, in this case) are trying to deny this Z>P>T>Z thing which i think everyone have known for ages.. The "imbalance" is very slight, and its about as balanced as a game can get, but certainly (almost) all Protosses know that Z is their most difficult match-up..
On the match itself, Bisu played well, but so did Zero.. Someone just have to lose eventually, so too bad T_T. Im tempted to blame Neo-Aztec, but i ll shut up :p.
GG Stars.
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10387 Posts
On May 04 2011 18:44 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i dont know why milkis keeps on trying to defend his position
you could go up to progamers themselves and ask and they will say zvp is imba
in every game bisu plays commentators go on about how zvp is imba
match up stats say zvp is imba All I'm saying is simple: ZvP, at the current stage, favors Protoss over Zerg. It is cyclical, after all. Dunno why that is something that is so hard to swallow for people.
ZvP at the current stage is balanced imo, but sways heavily depending on the map. On a map like Aztec, its Zerg favored.. but on a map like Bloody Ridge, it'll be Protoss favored.. but for the most part equally playable for both races
Earlier in the year, it WAS Protoss favored because of new strategies (+1 Sair/Speedlot, +1 DT/Speedlot timing, Zealot/Reaver timing, early ranged Dragoon timings, 2base Reaver/HT allin, etc.) that Zerg didn't know how to deal with, but now Zergs have adjusted their play to block these new strategies, and thought up of some of their own (fake Hydra bust into dronepump in particular lol) : P
My thoughts are that Protoss has an advantage most of the time in early-midgame, but if Zerg can deflect any midgame timing attack by Protoss, the lategame favors Zerg if they know how to abuse Plague/Swarm/Drop and have strong enough mechanics to manage bases/control army.
also I thought that Jaedong WAS the best mechanical Zerg there (I mean.. I've never seen anyone else do a doublestack Muta micro before..). Did some Zerg take that title while I wasn't looking?
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Russian Federation327 Posts
I mean who is the best PvZ now, and ever?
Flash, when he offraced as toss
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On May 04 2011 19:47 ffreakk wrote:
I don't know know why even the Veterans (Milkis, in this case) are trying to deny this Z>P>T>Z thing which i think everyone have known for ages.. The "imbalance" is very slight, and its about as balanced as a game can get, but certainly (almost) all Protosses know that Z is their most difficult match-up..
On the match itself, Bisu played well, but so did Zero.. Someone just have to lose eventually, so too bad T_T. Im tempted to blame Neo-Aztec, but i ll shut up :p.
GG Stars.
Maybe because we had that stupid argument over and over for years. PvZ is hard, harder than PvT, but it's not imbalanced.
It's not because Bisu loses against a Z from time to time that everybody needs to get mad "omfg pvz imba, bisu lost !!!!".
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Sigh, looks like best will have to pull the cart from now on
+ Show Spoiler +JK, it is a good thing Best is doing well right now, I missed him.
Zer0 =my FPL captain and woongjin is my team, a good day!
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9070 Posts
pff bisu lost a pvz, shut down everything...
no biggie, 4 losses in 5 rounds of PL is ok. Glad to see BeSt being boss again.
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EPT
