EPTOn May 04 2011 16:41 Ecrilon wrote:
Screw off. I hope your favorite player never wins another game.
Screw off. I hope your favorite player never wins another game.
easy there fellow. :|
Bisu fans are so mean.
[SPL] SKTelecom T1 vs Woongjin Stars - Page 54
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Hello all, Further whining about the Ace match will result in strict punishments. Time stamp 05:08 KST. Thank you. Empyrean | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50653 Posts
easy there fellow. :| Bisu fans are so mean. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:01 Turbovolver wrote: The point is they aren't SKT fans, not really, they are Bisu fans. Sure, he should've had more turrets, and if he could afford them, then that was indeed his error. But I don't think he could get up turrets much earlier, he may have been playing for standard 2-hatch timing instead of 12pool timing but as evidenced by him trying to protect his nat's mineral line with a bunker just so it would be earlier, he knew mutas were coming and he did everything he could with repairs and such to hold it off. That is to say, he didn't play retarded, he simply got punished for going 14cc by one of the most aggressive zerg openers out there. He could have cut SCVs, not made that bunker, or delayed a depot in that period before his armory is up to start his ebay earlier/make the first round of turrets earlier. Although if what you say is true that he did not see the 12 pool timing (which I strongly doubt, most pros have the ability to judge BO based on ling timing/hatch health etc. I would expect), then yes he was forced into a corner. Even then, you say that SK is really aggressive, so why would Ssak feel comfortable for going for such a risky build? 14 CC into 2 fac? 14 CC is risky enough. I think that even if some of these complaints are true then his play is to blame and though retarded is obviously a hyperbole I think that should have been evident. | ||
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chisuri
Vietnam789 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:07 Murderotica wrote: After templar use their energy up in an ideal situation the P has enough army to protect the HTs long enough for them to regain energy or morph into archons if the situation is more pressured. It's like in TvP where after every attack the Protoss does, Terran wants to retain the majority of his tanks even if it costs him in turrets/scvs/vultures/depots/goliaths(sometimes). What I meant to say overall is that Bisu never retained a decent amount of army to make a decent ball out of, and never got a sufficient amount of tech units to support it. One other thing, did anyone else notice that it seemed like Bisu wasn't rallying/combining forces well? Also to all the anti-Bisu-fans, don't put blanket statements on people, it makes you just as low as the people who actually deserve your angst. Do you see that poll? Apparently most Bisu fans can accept it when Bisu gets outplayed and recommend a game. Well I'm well aware of that. I'm a Bisu's fan after all. Thing is Zero had two main out of 3 of the map so he could flank Bisu rather easy, the big fight became extremely hard. And when Bisu went to offensive like he had to if he didn't want to be run over later, Zero had the advantage of replenishing and reinforcing much much faster. Bisu won the first half of the fight than Zerg reinforcement came. Because Bisu had to include many HT in his army to deal with swarm, the mobility of Protoss's army was extremely limited. Hence, he couldn't break Zero, couldn't save his army times after times. | ||
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
GJ Stars  . | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote: Just one more thing, Zero didn't play WELL that game, he played ridiculously. Bisu did everything a Toss could have done and it was no use. This is not the first loss vZ of Bisu this season but that game was the most and the first justifying loss of him. Zero just played the game of his life there. I see what Milkis means now. Please read my other posts listing what I think were Bisu's weaknesses in that game, and then respond to those if you disagree. EDIT: You already did while I was writing, sorry, will go read now. | ||
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chisuri
Vietnam789 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:09 Milkis wrote: I think you need to watch more games by Zero if you think "Zero just played the game of his life there".... Zero had a good strategy to use on the map but his play wasn't spectacular or anything. But anything to sweeten Bisu's loss, I suppose He played better than JD did in every game he encountered Bisu this season, even in his win on Benzene. He even played better than any Zerg played Bisu this season, in my opinion. And no, a loss is a loss, I never have a problem with it. Nobody can win forever, Flash, JD, Stork included. Edit: the phrase "the game of his life" is kinda overstated, it should be "one of the ZvP game of his life". | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote: Just one more thing, Zero didn't play WELL that game, he played ridiculously. Bisu did everything a Toss could have done and it was no use. This is not the first loss vZ of Bisu this season but that game was the most and the first justifying loss of him. Zero just played the game of his life there. "Zero played the game of his life" is a cliche. Zero plays about 1-2 games like this every month; he just also throws away games by playing like spaz, especially ZvZs. If Zero actually learns how to play consistently for longer than a single day he'll be S-class, but he's currently still a choke artist in 50% of his games. The only person that beats Zero is Zero. It's similar to watching Flash play except zero fucks up a whole lot more. You should still NEVER miss a Zero game if you know what's good for you because there's a decent chance it will be unbelievable. | ||
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PineappleLumpsToss
New Zealand2434 Posts
Grats to Stars and their fans for a good win. As SKT fans we've been fortunate a few times this season winning so many Ace matches - can't win them all. I'll have to watch the VODs, but it seems like now that BeSt is rediscovering some form Fantasy is losing his - FBB can't be in form at once lol. As I said to Stars fans back in WL, you've got a very deep team now. This result doesn't surprise me at all tbh. SKT is a bit erratic atm, and Stars can beat any team on their day with the players and depth they have. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8828 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote: i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh. kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:15 chisuri wrote: He played better than JD did in every game he encountered Bisu this season, even in his win on Benzene. He even played better than any Zerg played Bisu this season, in my opinion. And no, a loss is a loss, I never have a problem with it. Nobody can win forever, Flash, JD, Stork included. "Playing better than JD" doesn't mean much when JD vs Bisu on Fortress during playoffs was JD refusing to split mutas and during WL it was JD trying to do damage with mutas. Honestly what was different isn't "level of play" but strategies used and it looks like Zero found a good way of dealing with Bisu style play on Aztec, at the very least. A loss is a loss and yet you're trying to argue that "Zero played the game of his life" and you responded to my first remark as if "ZvP is imba". What's up with that? ~_~ | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote: zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Milkis/PLWriteup03/racechart.png) Totally imba, clearly. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8828 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: take out bisus wins and youve got yourself an imba mu should we take out the top zerg's wins too? | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: take out bisus wins and youve got yourself an imba mu ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/sc/balance/ZvP_noBP.png) 100 game running average. ZvP winrate. Red = without Bisu, Blue = overall winrate. Doesnt look too terribly different to me honestly especially after this season (note that it's a 100 game average so averages change slowly) | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/sc/balance/ZvP_noBPZ.png) ZvP winrate without Jaedong and Bisu. | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
It seems like almost every team is getting better this year, except for maybe KT and possibly Fox? BW~ | ||
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chisuri
Vietnam789 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:20 Milkis wrote: "Playing better than JD" doesn't mean much when JD vs Bisu on Fortress during playoffs was JD refusing to split mutas and during WL it was JD trying to do damage with mutas. Honestly what was different isn't "level of play" but strategies used and it looks like Zero found a good way of dealing with Bisu style play on Aztec, at the very least. A loss is a loss and yet you're trying to argue that "Zero played the game of his life" and you responded to my first remark as if "ZvP is imba". What's up with that? ~_~ God dammit Milkis, JD is the best mechanical Zerg out there. If out of 4 times he played Bisu, he lost 3 then there must be sometimes more than strategy there. Even if Bisu didn't let JD play up to your expectation, it's a achievement. Look at Flash's case. And I said, Zero played better than any Zerg Bisu played this season (in my opinion), and that's a dozen, and they used every kind of strategy so there must be something mechanical here. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:12 chisuri wrote: Well I'm well aware of that. I'm a Bisu's fan after all. Thing is Zero had two main out of 3 of the map so he could flank Bisu rather easy, the big fight became extremely hard. And when Bisu went to offensive like he had to if he didn't want to be run over later, Zero had the advantage of replenishing and reinforcing much much faster. Bisu won the first half of the fight than Zerg reinforcement came. Because Bisu had to include many HT in his army to deal with swarm, the mobility of Protoss's army was extremely limited. Hence, he couldn't break Zero, couldn't save his army times after times. I agree with your flanking point but this still does not explain Bisu's army composition and therefore (thanks to Kid Canada for pointing this out) his perhaps later gas placements at his expos. His third was later due to his failed early harassment which I think was in part due to his overconfidence in his BvZ BO which Zero was well prepared for, and then after that the heavy zealot use after defiler brought him down even further, which I also think is in part due to his overconfidence in his zealot micro (how many games has he won vs lurker just because of it? it is really good but not effective in the late game). I do concede that the faster regeneration rate of the Zerg army and the closer position made reinforcing easier, but also consider that as you said Zero had the other main - a distance that was greater than Bisu's. Given, Zerg units travel faster (except for defiler, which would be about equivalent to HT, + consume being equivalent to Archons maybe a bit ahead). This means that the effect was not as pronounced as you might imagine. I would have preferred to see Bisu be a little LESS aggressive with his army and more harass-oriented as the map seems to favor, and in doing so save up more high tech units in the mid-game period before ultra/swarm/plague. | ||
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