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Hello all,
Further whining about the Ace match will result in strict punishments.
Time stamp 05:08 KST.
Thank you.
Empyrean |
ALLEYCAT BLUES50645 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:28 kuroshiroi wrote:
Woongjin is pretty scary these days, they've got an ace against each race, Light vZ, Zero vP and Soulkey vT. Of course Zero, Light and Soulkey are no slouches in the other matchups (except maybe for Light's vP and Zero's vZ) but they could very well go all the way this year, with a bit of luck.
It seems like almost every team is getting better this year, except for maybe KT and possibly Fox? BW~
KT got some more depth now.Thats something to consider no?
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:28 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:20 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:15 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:09 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:03 Murderotica wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. Not everyone, to both points. How is complaining about players playing poorly on your team not acceptable for a fan? How is it not just to judge them the same way you judge Bisu, for there were 4 losses in this match and each player is responsible for one. Point of the matter is Bisu won a game, and then lost a game against a player who was playing really well as opposed to the others who kind of flopped in one way or another, in Fantasy's and Ssak's case it was extreme. I don't see where your rage is coming from here, we're not "thrashing" anything, we are analyzing the play. So far I haven't seen anyone do a typical "omg wtf so noob scrub needs to go b- team and I wish afrotoss played instead of him" or whatever. That's mindless thrashing. Talking about why the games turned out the way they did is not. Just one more thing, Zero didn't play WELL that game, he played ridiculously. Bisu did everything a Toss could have done and it was no use. This is not the first loss vZ of Bisu this season but that game was the most and the first justifying loss of him. Zero just played the game of his life there. I think you need to watch more games by Zero if you think "Zero just played the game of his life there".... Zero had a good strategy to use on the map but his play wasn't spectacular or anything. But anything to sweeten Bisu's loss, I suppose He played better than JD did in every game he encountered Bisu this season, even in his win on Benzene. He even played better than any Zerg played Bisu this season, in my opinion. And no, a loss is a loss, I never have a problem with it. Nobody can win forever, Flash, JD, Stork included. "Playing better than JD" doesn't mean much when JD vs Bisu on Fortress during playoffs was JD refusing to split mutas and during WL it was JD trying to do damage with mutas. Honestly what was different isn't "level of play" but strategies used and it looks like Zero found a good way of dealing with Bisu style play on Aztec, at the very least. A loss is a loss and yet you're trying to argue that "Zero played the game of his life" and you responded to my first remark as if "ZvP is imba". What's up with that? ~_~ God dammit Milkis, JD is the best mechanical Zerg out there. If out of 4 times he played Bisu, he lost 3 then there must be sometimes more than strategy there. Even if Bisu didn't let JD play up to your expectation, it's a achievement. Look at Flash's case. And I said, Zero played better than any Zerg Bisu played this season (in my opinion), and that's a dozen, and they used every kind of strategy so there must be something mechanical here. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer.
You couldn't be any more wrong about "JD being the best mechanical Zerg out there". JD wins through his instinct more than his mechanics.
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i dont even know how to read that graph...-_-
@legatus
taking out JDs scores would make less of an effect than taking out bisu's
hes won almost 30 times against zerg and has like...5 losses
if you totally deduct bisus stats from the mu youll end up with something similar to tvz's stats...though not quite as bad
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On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Milkis/PLWriteup03/racechart.png) Totally imba, clearly.
Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now.
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now.
Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too.
Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S
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On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now.
That was end of december/january, when every Protoss went mass sair which I still think is imba. But most Protoss players aren't using it anymore, for whatever reason.
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On May 04 2011 17:29 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:12 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:07 Murderotica wrote:On May 04 2011 17:01 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 16:59 Murderotica wrote:On May 04 2011 16:45 ArvickHero wrote:
Aztec is sooo Zerg favored if Protoss goes for conventional PvZ style, since Zerg can get 6 bases and Protoss can't break it, which the Zerg then plagues the Protoss to death (along with swarm/lurker/ling/ultra/hydra)
that being said, the map calls for a new strategy of PvZ. Seems like the map makers intended to allow Protoss/Terrans to keep Zerg in check by making the mains easily harassable and the cliffs, but that's.. really not enough. I really do think the best way to have played on this map was to get Arbiters for recall (which Bisu could've afforded easily, being on 5 base and all). Bisu would've been able to take out at least both mains with recall.. I also don't think this is the case. I think Zero just played beautifully and Bisu had too many zeals for far too long and strangely few archon/reaver and I saw so many HT die after just one engagement. They all used up their energy on storms, and they are too slow so no chance to survive at all anyways. The Zerg streams were never-ending. After templar use their energy up in an ideal situation the P has enough army to protect the HTs long enough for them to regain energy or morph into archons if the situation is more pressured. It's like in TvP where after every attack the Protoss does, Terran wants to retain the majority of his tanks even if it costs him in turrets/scvs/vultures/depots/goliaths(sometimes). What I meant to say overall is that Bisu never retained a decent amount of army to make a decent ball out of, and never got a sufficient amount of tech units to support it. One other thing, did anyone else notice that it seemed like Bisu wasn't rallying/combining forces well? Also to all the anti-Bisu-fans, don't put blanket statements on people, it makes you just as low as the people who actually deserve your angst. Do you see that poll? Apparently most Bisu fans can accept it when Bisu gets outplayed and recommend a game. Well I'm well aware of that. I'm a Bisu's fan after all. Thing is Zero had two main out of 3 of the map so he could flank Bisu rather easy, the big fight became extremely hard. And when Bisu went to offensive like he had to if he didn't want to be run over later, Zero had the advantage of replenishing and reinforcing much much faster. Bisu won the first half of the fight than Zerg reinforcement came. Because Bisu had to include many HT in his army to deal with swarm, the mobility of Protoss's army was extremely limited. Hence, he couldn't break Zero, couldn't save his army times after times. I agree with your flanking point but this still does not explain Bisu's army composition and therefore (thanks to Kid Canada for pointing this out) his perhaps later gas placements at his expos. His third was later due to his failed early harassment which I think was in part due to his overconfidence in his BvZ BO which Zero was well prepared for, and then after that the heavy zealot use after defiler brought him down even further, which I also think is in part due to his overconfidence in his zealot micro (how many games has he won vs lurker just because of it? it is really good but not effective in the late game). I do concede that the faster regeneration rate of the Zerg army and the closer position made reinforcing easier, but also consider that as you said Zero had the other main - a distance that was greater than Bisu's. Given, Zerg units travel faster (except for defiler, which would be about equivalent to HT, + consume being equivalent to Archons maybe a bit ahead). This means that the effect was not as pronounced as you might imagine. I would have preferred to see Bisu be a little LESS aggressive with his army and more harass-oriented as the map seems to favor, and in doing so save up more high tech units in the mid-game period before ultra/swarm/plague.
He did harass but Zero camped his army in his two main, and guard them with scourge. Even though, Bisu made many successful harass in that game, that is how good he is. But it's no use.
Bisu did save up a large army before the battle but he had to attack and kept the pressure, otherwise it would be free expansions for Zero. And I don't understand your point in the distance. Bisu had to move to Zero's territory to attack, which made him: 1) easier to be flanked by Zerg army from the other main, 2) being out-massed anyways since he had to keep some reaver and HT at bases and 3) be out-reinforced by Zerg because of a) he were very near to one of Zerg main, b) the Zerg army moved and replenished faster, c) nydus canal.
Defiler just need to Sward and Plague the Zealots so that Lurker could eat them alive, the reinforcement consisting of mostly Lings didn't need defiler anymore vs out of energy HT and Dragoons.
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On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S
So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result?
And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well.
And Bisu's wins alone is less than Hydra and JD's combining wins for a few when he had, what, a half of the loss? Seriously, Bisu singlehandedly brings sort of "balance" to PvZ.
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jesus, bisu loses 1 game out of like 500000 pvzs and the thread turns into a whine fest
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well.
Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season.
Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg.
You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment.
Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that.
The point is: you're wrong.
And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer.
Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
BTW, am I the only one who thinks that 1-2 queens should be built there along with those mutas and scourges, to prevent corsairs from running away from muta/scourge? That could be very good for zerg with this build, and devastating for protoss.
If zergs massively started to do this with that 4 base muta build, then for sure protoss would need that "special meeting" XD
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On May 04 2011 17:53 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well. Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season. Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg. You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment. Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that. The point is: you're wrong. Show nested quote +And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan.
So it's like when a player contributes like 1/3 the wins for his race that makes the ratio nearly 50-50 so that the match up is not imba? So when Savior was at his peak and Bisu won him 3-0, this match up and Savior in particular were not imba? What kinda logic is that? As far as I remember Kal was eliminated by a Zerg in MSL. He lost to JD quite, uhm sometimes and they're both the top players of their races at that time. Stat had some kind of hot run in WL and all, but how did he end up in WL playoff and SL? I recalled he lost to...Zergs?
How many wins of Stork were coming from non-JD and non-Hydra games? How is he now?
How many wins of top Zergs players were coming from games vs Bisu and Stork?
JD had a 9-6 stat, kinda weak hah? Still 60%. But 3 of that were the loss vs Bisu, 2 from Stork. So out of 10 games vs other Protoss players, who I think must include some big names, he is 9-1.
My point is Bisu is ridiculous, he is Flash of vZ match up (he is indeed better than Flash now in this match up). Take him into account and say that PvZ is balance now is kinda, I don't know, injustice.
And one last thing, plz don't include some ridiculous reasons and logics in your argument.
You have two points: I'm twisting my arguments and I'm wrong to prove that You are right, and I'm twisting my arguments? And your conclusion: no matter what I say, you don't care, you are right and I'm twisting my words because I'm wrong and i'm twisting my words? if you don't want to argue, don't want to read my reasons, plz tell me so. It doesn't mean you admit that I'm right and you're wrong, you know. But it certainly doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong.
Edit: Afrotoss and Pure and Sun are my jokes, don't take them seriously if, you know, you want to read my post.
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 18:13 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:53 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well. Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season. Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg. You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment. Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that. The point is: you're wrong. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan. So it's like when a player contributes like 1/3 the wins for his race that makes the ratio nearly 50-50 so that the match up is not imba? So when Savior was at his peak and Bisu won him 3-0, this match up and Savior in particular were not imba? What kinda logic is that? As far as I remember Kal was eliminated by a Zerg in MSL. He lost to JD quite, uhm sometimes and they're both the top players of their races at that time. Stat had some kind of hot run in WL and all, but how did he end up in WL playoff and SL? I recalled he lost to...Zergs? How many wins of Stork were coming from non-JD and non-Hydra games? How is he now? How many wins of top Zergs players were coming from games vs Bisu and Stork? JD had a 9-6 stat, kinda weak hah? Still 60%. But 3 of that were the loss vs Bisu, 2 from Stork. So out of 10 games vs other Protoss players, who I think must include some big names, he is 9-1. My point is Bisu is ridiculous, he is Flash of vZ match up (he is indeed better than Flash now in this match up). Take him into account and say that PvZ is balance now is kinda, I don't know, injustice. And one last thing, plz don't include some ridiculous reasons and logics in your argument. You have two points: I'm twisting my arguments and I'm wrong to prove that You are right, and I'm twisting my arguments? And your conclusion: no matter what I say, you don't care, you are right and I'm twisting my words because I'm wrong and i'm twisting my words? if you don't want to argue, don't want to read my reasons, plz tell me so. It doesn't mean you admit that I'm right and you're wrong, you know. But it certainly doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Edit: Afrotoss and Pure and Sun are my jokes, don't take them seriously if, you know, you want to read my post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size
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Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is.
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On May 04 2011 17:29 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:28 kuroshiroi wrote:
Woongjin is pretty scary these days, they've got an ace against each race, Light vZ, Zero vP and Soulkey vT. Of course Zero, Light and Soulkey are no slouches in the other matchups (except maybe for Light's vP and Zero's vZ) but they could very well go all the way this year, with a bit of luck.
It seems like almost every team is getting better this year, except for maybe KT and possibly Fox? BW~ KT got some more depth now.Thats something to consider no?
They lost ForGG and Violet, gained Action, CH and sort of trained Barracks and Perfective. I'd say they're about even after having been down in R1 and R2. R5 will tell whether or not they really have more depth now, the same as for Oz.
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On May 04 2011 18:17 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:13 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:53 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well. Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season. Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg. You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment. Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that. The point is: you're wrong. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan. So it's like when a player contributes like 1/3 the wins for his race that makes the ratio nearly 50-50 so that the match up is not imba? So when Savior was at his peak and Bisu won him 3-0, this match up and Savior in particular were not imba? What kinda logic is that? As far as I remember Kal was eliminated by a Zerg in MSL. He lost to JD quite, uhm sometimes and they're both the top players of their races at that time. Stat had some kind of hot run in WL and all, but how did he end up in WL playoff and SL? I recalled he lost to...Zergs? How many wins of Stork were coming from non-JD and non-Hydra games? How is he now? How many wins of top Zergs players were coming from games vs Bisu and Stork? JD had a 9-6 stat, kinda weak hah? Still 60%. But 3 of that were the loss vs Bisu, 2 from Stork. So out of 10 games vs other Protoss players, who I think must include some big names, he is 9-1. My point is Bisu is ridiculous, he is Flash of vZ match up (he is indeed better than Flash now in this match up). Take him into account and say that PvZ is balance now is kinda, I don't know, injustice. And one last thing, plz don't include some ridiculous reasons and logics in your argument. You have two points: I'm twisting my arguments and I'm wrong to prove that You are right, and I'm twisting my arguments? And your conclusion: no matter what I say, you don't care, you are right and I'm twisting my words because I'm wrong and i'm twisting my words? if you don't want to argue, don't want to read my reasons, plz tell me so. It doesn't mean you admit that I'm right and you're wrong, you know. But it certainly doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Edit: Afrotoss and Pure and Sun are my jokes, don't take them seriously if, you know, you want to read my post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size
For God's sake I just finished my Statistic course, don't need to wiki me. The problem here is one of the "sample" is too extreme that it need 10 other "sample" to compensate to make up the result of the population. And the sizes of the samples are different, Bisu played 40 games until now, most Protoss don't play that much. And you should take total ZvP matches in the history to have a more accurate results. The result in this season, especially the first period and PL in particular, doesn't stand for the nature of the match up. It's very much like the 2008 period, 6 dragons remember? But now Flash and JD are tearing them apart. That's why we don't take some results in some months in some special conditions to make a conclusion for something lasts much longer and more general than that. Take it as a whole.
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On May 04 2011 18:24 Seraphic wrote:
Should stop the argument now guys. Bisu lost, he is still human, no matter how ridiculous his BvZ is.
We all agree that Bisu is ridiculous, nobody can't disagree with that. The point is whether ZvP imba or not. (the previous point was whether Zero played spectacularly or not, but it's long over now)
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5003 Posts
On May 04 2011 18:35 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:17 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 18:13 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:53 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:43 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:35 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:30 chisuri wrote:On May 04 2011 17:22 Milkis wrote:On May 04 2011 17:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 04 2011 16:58 Milkis wrote:
i love how bisu loses and everyone goes "ZvP imba", not just here but on korean sites too. Oh, and the map blaming. psh.
kind of ridiculous. But it's still not as bad as the SKT fans QQing and "blaming" their players for losing. The fuck? Just accept the loss instead of thrashing your own team. The hell. zvp is imba...wtf you on about if it wasnt for bisu it would look like protosses are handing out free wins to zerg thats how good bisu is doing and the whole starcraft community knows that. even the commentators always ramble on about how all of the other protoss players are doing shit against zerg but bisu on his own eats zerg for breakfast and starcraft is a competitive sport. its not fun to watch a sport if you pick a team and go "oh well they lost. maybe next time well win" its boring and not motivational for the players either Totally imba, clearly. Bisu won 25 games out of that. He revolutionize a strategy that scored a lot of wins for Protoss in the first round when Zerg couldn't come up with solution. Not now. Let's take out the Hydra who went 12-4 too. Look at how the top Zergs have been performing against Protoss and you can see how tides have changed quite recently. You can say "Stork can't PvZ" except Stork is what, 14-6 this season against Zerg? Better than any Zerg against Protoss other than Hydra :S So let's take out Bisu's and Stork's stat of Protoss and JD's and hydra's out of Zerg. What is the result? And you should take a look at SL as well, Protoss is doing...not well. Yup and you gotta remove Stats (11-5) and Movie (18-12) too clearly cause they are also doing so great! These are all top Protoss and that is their record vs Z this season. Compare that with JD (9-6? LOL), Zero (7-7), Calm(5-6), who have top vs Protoss ELO for zerg. You can twist this around all you want but I'm not even interested in what the "lesser protosses" are even doing but the point is right now PvZ is definitely protoss favored over Zerg favored at the moment since no Zerg with the exception of Hydra (which won't last) isn't doing too well against Protoss at the moment. Of course at this you're just going to say something now "LOL ZVP IS STILL IMBA LOOK AT THE STATS AFTER YOU REMOVE THE BEST PLAYERS" but sorry, balance isn't determined by games like peace vs jaehoon or anything retarded like that. The point is: you're wrong. And ZvP is imba, ask Stork, and Kal, and Movie, and Free, and Best, and Pure, and Sun, and Afrotoss, and Flash's Toss version, the Korean community, the commentators, the coaches, and the history, they will give you the answer. Stork Kal Movie all have winning records vs Zerg. Afrotoss and Sun and Pure? You're pretty bad at this then again you'd have to be this bad to be such a devoted Bisu fan. So it's like when a player contributes like 1/3 the wins for his race that makes the ratio nearly 50-50 so that the match up is not imba? So when Savior was at his peak and Bisu won him 3-0, this match up and Savior in particular were not imba? What kinda logic is that? As far as I remember Kal was eliminated by a Zerg in MSL. He lost to JD quite, uhm sometimes and they're both the top players of their races at that time. Stat had some kind of hot run in WL and all, but how did he end up in WL playoff and SL? I recalled he lost to...Zergs? How many wins of Stork were coming from non-JD and non-Hydra games? How is he now? How many wins of top Zergs players were coming from games vs Bisu and Stork? JD had a 9-6 stat, kinda weak hah? Still 60%. But 3 of that were the loss vs Bisu, 2 from Stork. So out of 10 games vs other Protoss players, who I think must include some big names, he is 9-1. My point is Bisu is ridiculous, he is Flash of vZ match up (he is indeed better than Flash now in this match up). Take him into account and say that PvZ is balance now is kinda, I don't know, injustice. And one last thing, plz don't include some ridiculous reasons and logics in your argument. You have two points: I'm twisting my arguments and I'm wrong to prove that You are right, and I'm twisting my arguments? And your conclusion: no matter what I say, you don't care, you are right and I'm twisting my words because I'm wrong and i'm twisting my words? if you don't want to argue, don't want to read my reasons, plz tell me so. It doesn't mean you admit that I'm right and you're wrong, you know. But it certainly doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Edit: Afrotoss and Pure and Sun are my jokes, don't take them seriously if, you know, you want to read my post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size For God's sake I just finished my Statistic course, don't need to wiki me. The problem here is one of the "sample" is too extreme that it need 10 other "sample" to compensate to make up the result of the population. And the sizes of the samples are different, Bisu played 40 games until now, most Protoss don't play that much. And you should take total ZvP matches in the history to have a more accurate results. The result in this season, especially the first period and PL in particular, doesn't stand for the nature of the match up. It's very much like the 2008 period, 6 dragons remember? But now Flash and JD are tearing them apart. That's why we don't take some results in some months in some special conditions to make a conclusion for something lasts much longer and more general than that. Take it as a whole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_effects_estimator
Also: Reread your previous post and some of the conclusions you've drawn and then reread the sample size wiki article again!
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i dont know why milkis keeps on trying to defend his position
you could go up to progamers themselves and ask and they will say zvp is imba
in every game bisu plays commentators go on about how zvp is imba
match up stats say zvp is imba
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Keep the imba bullshit out of the BW part of TL please.
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EPT
