[OSL] Grand Final - Page 204

tedster

984 Posts

February 03 2011 02:36 GMT

#4061

On February 03 2011 11:34 infinity2k9 wrote:

Oh my GOD i can't believe you don't contribute anything to the discussion at all. Have you actually got anything relevant to post?

Here's a relevant post:

You are a moron; scouts are terrible; hindsight is 20/20, stop posting your hackneyed strats.

User was temp banned for this post.

iloveHieu

United States1919 Posts

February 03 2011 02:44 GMT

#4062

dammit Stork, disappointing result =(

GolemMadness

Canada11044 Posts

February 03 2011 07:09 GMT

#4063

On February 02 2011 23:57 infinity2k9 wrote:
i'm not talking about large numbers i'm talking about 1 or 2 scouts on this particular map in this particular situation, it would of helped. Sairs suck against dropships in this particular situation while you can micro a scout back and forth above the wall on pathfinder to get the decent damage on them. The sair just chases the dropship away with its weak damage. When Fantasy was moving dropship back and forth for aerial view a scout would have been preferable to a corsair in the situation for sure.

I dunno why you'd be so against the idea when he lost a shitload more resources attempting to clean up the corner of his base. The scout or 2 would have at least forced goliaths in order to get the dropships into the base, which is good.

Shortly after Stork's stargate finished, he sniped the dropship, so obviously he's not going to build a scout then. By the time Fantasy started dropping again, Stork was building arbiters. What's he going to do, cancel his arbiters and start building scouts instead, which take over a minute to complete? Especially when Fantasy has turrets built right next to the ridge, and scouts are only a bit better at killing land units anyways. Scouts just clearly would not help.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

February 03 2011 07:21 GMT

#4064

Also, what if the player just simply goes around the scouts to avoid fire, or even just takes the hit if there's only 1 and then kills it with a goliath? They are ungodly slow, they won't move in place in time. And 2 scouts either hurts tech or unit count significantly.

Sayle

United Kingdom3685 Posts

February 03 2011 13:23 GMT

#4065

Here's the VOD of my live cast in English:

http://www.blip.tv/file/4702105/

gongryong

Korea (South)1430 Posts

February 03 2011 15:24 GMT

#4066

On February 03 2011 22:23 Sayle wrote:
Here's the VOD of my live cast in English:

http://www.blip.tv/file/4702105/

Sayle, thanks for the cast man!

gds

Iceland1391 Posts

February 04 2011 18:58 GMT

#4067

Any informations about when the next OSL is starting? and what will be the sponsor this time?

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

February 04 2011 19:44 GMT

#4068

On February 03 2011 16:09 GolemMadness wrote:

Show nested quote +

At the end of the day i think Stork should have seen the game BeSt vs Flash on Fortress and should have realized on such a simple drop and elevator effective technique map he'd have some defence against it, scout or no scout. It's Fantasy, he loves dropping, so a surprise like that would have actually worked as a counter. His rally point is right near a certain position of Storks base yet he made no attempt to control the area. It would have forced him to change his tactics and plan, which is what Fantasy does NOT like. I would have got one when the Stargate was first built simply assuming he would attempt such a thing.

Lightwip you seem to be exaggerating how bad they are completely. The cost is the issue with them but they are not just gonna die to a single goliath like a wraith unattended for a second. It could have been used with a simultaneous zealot drop on the tanks (to take turret fire) when attempting to break the position later too, although ideally the situation should not have got to that in the first place. People are too quick to shut down ideas because they are not used, it's a self-perpetuating bad thing to do.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

February 04 2011 20:05 GMT

#4069

I seriously think the fact that progamers literally only use Scouts as humiliation when they're already winning the game by a mile (the last time I remember seeing them used strategically was Kal vs Frogg on Colloseum like 3 years ago, and he lost that game) is enough of an argument that it's a silly idea.

a176

Canada6688 Posts

February 04 2011 20:39 GMT

#4070

On February 05 2011 04:44 infinity2k9 wrote:
Lightwip you seem to be exaggerating how bad they are completely. The cost is the issue with them but they are not just gonna die to a single goliath like a wraith unattended for a second. It could have been used with a simultaneous zealot drop on the tanks (to take turret fire) when attempting to break the position later too, although ideally the situation should not have got to that in the first place. People are too quick to shut down ideas because they are not used, it's a self-perpetuating bad thing to do.

i dont think you've ever actually built a scout.

Zeridian

United States198 Posts

February 04 2011 20:44 GMT

#4071

On February 05 2011 05:39 a176 wrote:

Show nested quote +

i dont think you've ever actually built a scout.

Bwenjarin Raffrack

United States322 Posts

February 04 2011 21:38 GMT

#4072

On February 05 2011 05:05 Holgerius wrote:
I seriously think the fact that progamers literally only use Scouts as humiliation when they're already winning the game by a mile (the last time I remember seeing them used strategically was Kal vs Frogg on Colloseum like 3 years ago, and he lost that game) is enough of an argument that it's a silly idea.

Kal and ForGG had two games on Colosseum that series, which played out about the same (time attacker!). The scouts worked in holding off ForGG's attack in the first game, and they were too late in the second. There was also Hiya vs. Kal on Match Point from the Hana Daetoo MSL last year in much the same situation (as desperation to counter tanks well-entrenched after an early timing push). It didn't work there in large part because, as opposed to the game on Colosseum, the sweet spot for the tanks on Match Point is able to shell and shut down the natural.

I think we can therefore surmise that scouts are "viable" in a very specific (and dire) circumstance that Protoss is trying to never be in in the first place, and that Kal is the only Protoss player willing or desperate enough to go for them.

Oh, there was also that inexplicable scout in Stats vs. Jaedong on Dante's Peak right after Jaedong doom dropped Stats' natural. Hard to tell if that was a "strategic" use, though.

skypacer

China174 Posts

February 05 2011 09:20 GMT

#4073

Really epic games. Fantasy fighting...

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

February 06 2011 05:12 GMT

#4074

I have built a scout yes and i have seen replays where its used effectively. Sometimes i wonder if people in livethreads actually play the game or at least even try anything different ever. Download the Nony TSL rep pack for interesting use of them in actual builds, not even just specific situations. If an ex-B teamer playing against A level players can use them in a build successfully i'm sure a top progamer can build 1 or 2 in a specific situation. I don't see Stork doing much else in that game that was anything an inferior player couldn't do. He ended up in a desperate situation where the unit would have helped a bit, but if he had planned for the map or actually did anything strategically smart then this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Particularly in the BeSt Vs Flash game, he could have used one or two there as well rather than just walking his army back and forth between his nat and main and losing most of his units. I think Kal would have done it.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

February 06 2011 14:24 GMT

#4075

I really don't understand why a scout stops drops better than a corsair. You can always just run away and come in from a different angle and abuse the fact that the scout is SLOW. I don't think you can use the scout for that purpose better than the corsair, and even the sair is only useful in special situations. I think you're really underestimating the cost of the scout.
Also, B teamer >>>> A-level on ICC. Not really even comparable, you can usually win with the stupidest of disadvantages. Remember when Stork>Idra with a failed proxy 2 gate into standard game? That's what a huge skill advantage lets you do.

WniO

United States2706 Posts

February 06 2011 15:09 GMT

#4076

On February 06 2011 23:24 Lightwip wrote:
I really don't understand why a scout stops drops better than a corsair. You can always just run away and come in from a different angle and abuse the fact that the scout is SLOW. I don't think you can use the scout for that purpose better than the corsair, and even the sair is only useful in special situations. I think you're really underestimating the cost of the scout.
Also, B teamer >>>> A-level on ICC. Not really even comparable, you can usually win with the stupidest of disadvantages. Remember when Stork>Idra with a failed proxy 2 gate into standard game? That's what a huge skill advantage lets you do.

pretty sure idra was about to win that game if it wasnt for that dt mine drag.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

February 06 2011 15:19 GMT

#4077

On February 07 2011 00:09 WniO wrote:

Show nested quote +

pretty sure idra was about to win that game if it wasnt for that dt mine drag.

Well that's just it, it was a failed all-in and Stork did what was necessary to win. If Flash/Fantasy stopped Stork's all-in, he might as well gg right there. But against Idra he pulled off the comeback.