EPTFun facts: Sea is 7:6 vs JD, Light is 4:1 vs Effort. But surely mech imba was the only reason terran players won today, right?
[MSL] Ro8 Day 1 - Page 50
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
L0thar
987 Posts
Fun facts: Sea is 7:6 vs JD, Light is 4:1 vs Effort. But surely mech imba was the only reason terran players won today, right? | ||
|
kmdarkmaster
France188 Posts
| ||
|
DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:17 L0thar wrote: All you complainers about Sea vs JD would have had much more credibility, had JD not lost to Sea on a fucking Dreamliner just couple of days ago. Fun facts: Sea is 7:6 vs JD, Light is 4:1 vs Effort. But surely mech imba was the only reason terran players won today, right? All of that doesn't change the fact that when it purely comes to skill, Jaedong was the much better player today. | ||
|
JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:16 jackknight wrote: I am not going to argue against people opinion because everyone is bias, whether it is their favorite player or their personal race. There must have been a recent patch for SC:BW that made people complain about T being imbalance? I mean, looking at the past winner of OSL/MSL, you can clearly see the imbalance race. So, when did this imbalance conversation became so annoying every dam day? Until I see constant race (such as when Zerg dominated in the 08-09 MSL/OSL) win every time, I rather read better analysis of the game/map/player than some junk post. zergs were still only even with terran in % during that time. zergs just beat alot of protoss because pvz is a joke of a matchup | ||
|
Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:16 jackknight wrote: I am not going to argue against people opinion because everyone is bias, whether it is their favorite player or their personal race. There must have been a recent patch for SC:BW that made people complain about T being imbalance? I mean, looking at the past winner of OSL/MSL, you can clearly see the imbalance race. So, when did this imbalance conversation became so annoying every dam day? Until I see constant race (such as when Zerg dominated in the 08-09 MSL/OSL) win every time, I rather read better analysis of the game/map/player than some junk post. You are a smart man. Although the point of a siege tank is to...well it sieges up like every other siege weapon has in history and shoots artillery shells. | ||
|
Garrl
Scotland1970 Posts
But yes, meching kinda removes the enjoyment of watching the game, seeing how PR is. I don't think there's been any pimpest plays moments from Z v Terran metal. | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:16 jackknight wrote: I am not going to argue against people opinion because everyone is bias, whether it is their favorite player or their personal race. There must have been a recent patch for SC:BW that made people complain about T being imbalance? I mean, looking at the past winner of OSL/MSL, you can clearly see the imbalance race. So, when did this imbalance conversation became so annoying every dam day? Until I see constant race (such as when Zerg dominated in the 08-09 MSL/OSL) win every time, I rather read better analysis of the game/map/player than some junk post. What annoys people more in this case is the fact that it looks as if nothing the Zerg can do will break the defence, and it doesn't make for very exciting games usually. Back in swarm season you could never really say that the Zergs looked undefeatable, they were just playing at a higher level at the time. The mech builds used back then were clearly very fragile early game and it was exploited more, however the bio to mech switch fixes this. Now they have the most solid defensive early game and the most solid late game figured out, plus of course they still got all the usual aggressive options available to them such as the 2rax shown today. Tough situation for Zergs right now against the good Terrans at least. On August 05 2010 21:22 Garrl wrote: To the person saying "ZERG SHOULD ABUSE MOBILITY LIKE IN PVT AND NOT A-MOVE INTO TANKS": this only works because Toss have spells which disable large parts of Mech - allowing you to actually combat large amounts of terran metal; whereas Zerg have to actually attack it and wear down their army before it gets to 200/200-3/3, and let's not forget Storm, which is basically a more spammable Plague (ie, 2 storms will kill a tank, but 2 plagues will always just reduce the tank to 1hp, and actually getting up to the tanks without losing your entire army is the hard part) and recall. But yes, meching kinda removes the enjoyment of watching the game, seeing how PR is. I don't think there's been any pimpest plays moments from Z v Terran metal. Exactly, and this is why broodling was attempted by some as just some way to try and use spells to wittle down the army. | ||
|
revy
United States1524 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:00 AJ- wrote: i doubt the top 3 z progamers in this msl are "a-moving into a tank setup." although the end of effort's game looked exactly like that, i think by that time he knew he lost. let's not compare him to diamond sc2 You're correct, they don't just a-move (save for Effort in midgame). But the key is that JD launched more than a few poor attacks early, the first attack down south (after the brilliant flank on high ground) and the wrap around into Sea's exhausted nat. I don't think the key to winning vs mech comes in trying to brute force it (at least not at first) but to try and contain it. Mech is weakest before it is entrenched, while moving. I think JD lost the game with those two dumb attacks. Had you given JD those units back and he didn't try to break Sea but instead tried to prevent 12 from going up I think he would've won that game. | ||
|
faculty.aCe.
Germany107 Posts
To get to the three games (Zero/Flash; Effort/Light; Sea/Jaedong), i'll try to just explain why the zergs lost, and what they could, no they should have done different: Zero/Flash: As we all know Flash is the best terran in the world at the moment, not even worth arguing, especially in playing defensive mech/strategic games he is just incredibly good. He played his build order almost perfectly, not doing too many mistakes, he pushed forwards carefully and slowly, build many turrets, etc., not giving an opportunity for Zero to just steamroll him by fighting his tank front. BUT as PS is such a big map, the pushing distance is very long, of course his strongest army point is in the front, as he is pushing there, but by doing so, the rest of his defence is spread out widely, and has many weak points. Zero just tried to break his push, as he wanted to keep his expansion, but that basically cost him the game. As i already mentioned terran isn't able to move that fast with his force, so he should have attacked at some weak points of his defence, where he could have definitely broke through, that would have let Flash to cancel his push, and defence in the back => Flash's push would have been countered, and it would take time to get the push/contain up again. Zero didn't do so, he just tried to break the contain at its strongest point. Effort/Light: At first: Efforts biggest mistake were his guardians, the first 4 guardians were good, as they caught Light off guard, but after this Light was prepared and built Goliaths, making the next guardian wave ineffective, and just a waste of money. Another mistake was his unit mix, but that was just the logical consequence of the guardian troop, as they cost a lot of money. Making ling/ultra isn't the best choice against mech terran. Light stood tightly at most of his expansions, not making it possible for effort to push in there, but as he did so, his push wasn't the strongest, and although Effort's unit combination wasn't the best he almost broke the push of light many times, and sometimes even did, as Light put a lot of his units at his expansions to defend them => he didn't have that many units to push forwards, Effort figured this out, and tried to, as some of you all it "a-click in there", but it was the correct decision, just some better unit mix and he would have won it. Jaedong/Sea: This is probably the easiest one of those three. Jaedong got some advantage early on, by destroying Sea's forces with this massive lurker attack, but then he got overconfident and thought "well he can't have that many units anymore, I can just attack and win it now", but he underestimated the power of mines and terran mech, as he then suicided a lot of his troops just into the terran defense. Instead of this he should have waited for the terran to push out, take more expansions and then against use the missing mobility of Sea's forces, when Sea pushes he has a weak point somewhere at the map, where Jaedong can just crush in and counter Sea's contain, so Sea would have been forced to stop his push. Of course Sea also did some heavily mistakes like at 1 ´o clock when he lost those 10 tanks, but then Jaedong just suicided his complete army again into Sea's defence instead of just waiting and taking the expansions. Sea at this point of the game just didn't have the tank count to attack properly. In my opinion those are the reasons why Zero/Effort/Jaedong lost the game. They just aren't playing correctly against the terran mech style. I hope to not get any comments like "you can't do better as well so just stfu", as I know I can't do better, but I've been a pretty decent player as well, so I know what I'm talking about. If you want to argue about my ideas, you're welcome. | ||
|
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:19 DarkMatter_ wrote: All of that doesn't change the fact that when it purely comes to skill, Jaedong was the much better player today. How did JD show much more skill than Sea in that game? He had a couple of nice moves, such as the wonderful flank when Sea pushed, but overall he wasn't ''the much better player''. | ||
|
Highways
Australia6098 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:16 jackknight wrote: There must have been a recent patch for SC:BW that made people complain about T being imbalance? I mean, looking at the past winner of OSL/MSL, you can clearly see the imbalance race. . You realise during 'swarm season' the TvZ stats for that period of 8 months or so was actually even? The reason why Zerg has done so well recently is because they were getting free rides against Protoss. Outside swarm season Terran always has better win ratios in TvZ .Pop's statistics also shows that that T>Z is statistically the most imbalanced matchup in the history of Starcarft. Even sAviOr in his prime only managed a 60% win ratio vs Terran. Terran's in their prime are generally 70-80% in TvZ. In fact only about three zergs have a ZvT of >60%, while there are easily 10-15 terrans with 60%+ TvZ. But you don't even need to look at stats to see this. Look at how most of Zerg's wins are like, its mainly really short games where Terran makes a big mistake. They never look convincing, its always a downhill battle. | ||
|
CoWsGoesMoo
250 Posts
| ||
|
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
| ||
|
Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:29 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: What if Zerg starts using queens late game? >_> If I understood it right from some interview queens take too much control. There isn't exactly a zerg with 200 eapm left over late game to manage queens. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:29 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: What if Zerg starts using queens late game? >_> You know the game is fucked up if people start looking for queens as the answer. As Sea puts it himself: The purpose of transitioning into mech-play is to neutralize the threat of defilers played by gamers of superior skill. Sea stated that if terran plays well enough, there is literally nothing the zerg can do. He also admitted that he felt he only won because of the circumstances involved (yes, the gayness that's been talked about non-stop), not because he was the better player. Now, I'm not sure if the situation is impossible as Sea puts it, but jesus people, stop turning a blind eye to such blatant imbalance between the two players invovled, that also happens lead to games that remind us of UMS, not melee between players of the highest calibre. | ||
|
corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:27 Highways wrote: You realise during 'swarm season' the TvZ stats for that period of 8 months or so was actually even? The reason why Zerg has done so well recently is because they were getting free rides against Protoss. Outside swarm season Terran always has better win ratios in TvZ .Pop's statistics also shows that that T>Z is statistically the most imbalanced matchup in the history of Starcarft. Even sAviOr in his prime only managed a 60% win ratio vs Terran. Terran's in their prime are generally 70-80% in TvZ. In fact only about three zergs have a ZvT of >60%, while there are easily 10-15 terrans with 60%+ TvZ. But you don't even need to look at stats to see this. Look at how most of Zerg's wins are like, its mainly really short games where Terran makes a big mistake. They never look convincing, its always a downhill battle. I can't find the thread, but there was a cool article that showed the evolution of the % of win in TvZ against time. There were times where Zerg did dominate the match up. As for sAviOr, only 60%, but the map pool was really bad for Zerg at some points (lol reverse temple). And the first Bo5 he lost against terran was against... Firebathero, long after gis prime... Yeah the match up is imba, but not that much, and the maps have a lot to do with it. Too much rage in this thread^^ Edit : And also Flash and Light both played very very strong games... Sea was a bit worse, but Jaedong did make mistakes too... | ||
|
Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
on PR, good terrans can pull off this kind of play, without any major mistakes, with good placement and decisions, mediocre terrans fail trying to expand or gain mapcontrol. thats the difference. yes-yes PR is imba, but no anyone can abuse this so easily, these 3 terran, who played today were the best of the best no doubt. | ||
|
JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:36 Letmelose wrote: You know the game is fucked up if people start looking for queens as the answer. As Sea puts it himself: The purpose of transitioning into mech-play is to neutralize the threat of defilers played by gamers of superior skill. Sea stated that if terran plays well enough, there is literally nothing the zerg can do. He also admitted that he felt he only won because of the circumstances involved (yes, the gayness that's been talked about non-stop), not because he was the better player. Now, I'm not sure if the situation is impossible as Sea puts it, but jesus people, stop turning a blind eye to such blatant imbalance between the two players invovled, that also happens lead to games that remind us of UMS, not melee between players of the highest calibre. did he talk of this about the game he just played? | ||
Aesop
Hungary11243 Posts
On August 05 2010 21:30 Holgerius wrote: Sea, Light and Flash are the Top 3 TvZ'ers according to ELO. Not any noob could pull of what they're doing. Light is 24-2 TvZ since that loss vs. Kwanro. Just crazy. edit: fixed stats  | ||
|
Black[CAT]
Malaysia2589 Posts
WHAT? Jaedong lose to Sea....AGAIN? | ||
| ||
